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Nirvikalpa posted:You hit the nail on the head. I usually get pretty anxious and excited when the character is in danger during a movie. I even felt that way during Tinker Bell and the Great Fairy Rescue. But during the car chase scene in BvS I felt absolutely nothing. It just seemed like random cars all over the place. Please gently caress me
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Aug 5, 2016 05:22
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khwarezm posted:I think people get too wound up over the fact that its for kids. For most of history comic books and comic book characters were made with kids in mind, but fans are loath to admit this, especially with DC for whatever reason, hence Batman's constant juvenile edginess in almost all forms of media he's appeared in since the mid 80s. It helps to remember that "it's just for kids" has always been the go-to putdown for anyone who takes superhero poo poo even remotely seriously, whether it was justified or not, pretty much since the characters were created. It's the golden dismissal for people  -ing and legitimately discussing the work alike. So it's understandable why fans would grow up to be really tetchy about it.Even so yeah, DC and DC fans really seem to take umbrage with the whole thing. I think it's Batman. I love Batman, but he is the Pumpkin Spice Latte of superheroes (i.e: he's most fervently loved by the basic bitches). quote:I kind of like the way the old cartoons just ignore that element. Heck, a lot of the Marvel and Spider man live-action movies are only a little more complex, mature and gritty than the old DC cartoons and I'm not criticizing them for that. Well this is what makes the cartoons and Marvel movies good. It's counter-intuitive but the best way to make superheroes more adult, mature, and complex is to embrace that they are fundamentally characters for young children with a surprisingly robust mythological bent. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 5, 2016 05:34
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Gatekeeper posted:Thank you, i feel like people really praise this stuff and I usually wonder how much of that is rose colored glasses "this was so awesome when I was a kid! it is also awesome now that I'm an adult!" stuff. I didn't watch too much of the DCAU when I was a kid, but I gotten around to watching it recently and I think it's fine as a cartoon. It's no less mature than any of the live action movies are. Overall I think the stories are pretty solid and meaningful. And overall aren't superhero stories, especially DC's, for kids in the first place? Unless you only want to read the Killing Joke and Kingdom Come all day
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Aug 5, 2016 05:39
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mind the walrus posted:A Marvel Thunderbolts movie starring Tim Roth, Sam Rockwell, Daniel Bruhl, and William Hurt would be pretty loving awesome. Throw in some lady to be Moonstone or Songbird, maybe add a chick to be Toxie Moxie and throw them all against the Sentry just to twist the knife against DC a little more. Ooooh m g!  Please don't break my heart!
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Aug 5, 2016 05:54
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khwarezm posted:I think people get too wound up over the fact that its for kids. For most of history comic books and comic book characters were made with kids in mind, but fans are loath to admit this, especially with DC for whatever reason, hence Batman's constant juvenile edginess in almost all forms of media he's appeared in since the mid 80s. I kind of like the way the old cartoons just ignore that element. Heck, a lot of the Marvel and Spider man live-action movies are only a little more complex, mature and gritty than the old DC cartoons and I'm not criticizing them for that. I'm wondering if the big thing is that DC Comics was considered to be the "mature" line with Vertigo brand and "The Killing Joke" and "Watchmen" and the like. Marvel might have had it's own mature brand with Epic, but it mostly dealt with self-contained, out of Marvel continuity stories like "Alien Legion", "The Light and Darkness War", "Starstruck" and the English-adaptation of "Akira" and, with the exception of "Akira", didn't really make a dent like, say, Animal Man, Sandman, and John Constantine, which, while on the periphery in their own titles, were still part of the DC Comics continuity and regularly interacted outside their "mature audiences" imprint. Marvel only recently, as in the last decade, started dealing with more mature subjects in the Marvel Universe, with stuff like the Marvel Knights like the Ennis' Punisher line and Alias, as well as one-off stuff like "Ruins" and "The End" series, as well as that Vertigo line fostering creator-owned titles like "Preacher" and "The Invisibles", so most comics fans would likely see DC Comics as being more "mature" than Marvel. khwarezm posted:With the Batman animated series though, I think that was a lot more erratic in quality than people remember. Some episodes had absolutely brilliant writing, animation, voice acting, direction etc and others.... less so. Can you name one of these poor quality episodes? I just went through a list of B:TAS episodes and can't remember a single one that was lovely. I know that nothing can be 100% perfect, but I would love to hear what's a bad B:TAS episode. Or are you including New Batman Adventures in that as well, because then I would probably agree with you. It took me a bit to realize that's when they changed Mr. Freeze's look as well as had the great episode about Robin falling in love with Clayface's "daughter" (which apparently was directed by a future Ghibli animator)
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Aug 5, 2016 06:07
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Nirvikalpa posted:I didn't watch too much of the DCAU when I was a kid, but I gotten around to watching it recently and I think it's fine as a cartoon. It's no less mature than any of the live action movies are. Overall I think the stories are pretty solid and meaningful. I don't want to overstate it but they could get weirdly dark at times. I remember there was this one episode of Superman where a crooked cop carbombs Clark Kent to prevent him from uncovering a frameup for a murder he organised that's put an innocent man on death row. That episode ends with said cop himself being executed after the truth comes out and realizing that Clark Kent was superman as poison gas fills up the cell. Its like an episode of law and order starring Superman. There was also one episode of Justice League where the league ends up in an alternate version of earth that's just like a 1950s comic book with sickly earnest superheroes foiling silly criminals who only want to steal rubies and rob banks in a generic American city where all the people are incredibly nice. Turns out the whole thing is an elaborate facade created by a horrific psychic mutant in a post-nuclear war hellscape who has the survivors permanently imprisoned in his fantasy as he plays out his games. The Mutant almost kills the Justice league when they realize the truth until that universe's heroes sacrifice their own existence and world to save the Justice league and kill their creator. Ah jeez that ending really got me.
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Aug 5, 2016 06:20
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Gatekeeper posted:I did hear that the batman: the animated show is very good but I'm iffy on starting a series, I'm thinking trying some features first would be a good intro. Suggestions welcome, friends! mask of the phantasm is a legitimately great movie and still holds up only dc animated movie to get a theatrical release and you can see why Bro Dad fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Aug 5, 2016 |
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Aug 5, 2016 06:27
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Don Tacorleone posted:There is no way the suicide skwad earns 800 million dollars Deadpool came within a whisker of making $800m (starting with a record setting $130m opening weekend) and current projections put the Suicide Squad opening weekend in the same ballpark or perhaps even higher after their insane all-encompassing promotional program but Deadpool's secret weapon was that it genuinely a fun movie and SS doesn't have that so I can't see it keeping up. BvS followed a similar marketing scheme where they blanketed the earth with billboards and ads and had a MASSIVE opening and tried to coast off that, so they made pretty good bank even though the movie wasn't very enjoyable and it set a new record for subsequent box office dropoffs for a film with a $100m+ opening.
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Aug 5, 2016 06:49
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it is funny how marvel animated series and movies are always terrible. marvel comics have no intrinsic quality which make them better for movies than dc. it is all a matter of writers and directors, and for some reason wb is violently opposed to using talented creators outside of dc cartoons.
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Aug 5, 2016 09:53
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Nirvikalpa posted:You hit the nail on the head. I usually get pretty anxious and excited when the character is in danger during a movie. I even felt that way during Tinker Bell and the Great Fairy Rescue.
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Aug 5, 2016 11:47
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Young Freud posted:Can you name one of these poor quality episodes? I just went through a list of B:TAS episodes and can't remember a single one that was lovely. I know that nothing can be 100% perfect, but I would love to hear what's a bad B:TAS episode. I recently had a chance to go back and watch the entirety of B:TAS. And it was...not as great as I remembered it. It was an awesome idea, sure. A cartoon emulating the Tim Burton movies, with a heaping helping of post-TV series Dennis O'Neil era "ditch the campiness and get back to what passes for gritty in the '70s" comics. And it wasn't that any single episode was lovely or an absolute disaster in and of itself. The animation is consistently good (until TNBA), and there were certainly great and even classic episodes. The problem is that the average episode was, at best, aggressively mediocre. The stories fell into the same patterns of "bad guy is about to do a thing when BATMAN (and sometimes ROBIN) just happen to show up by busting through the window to stop them, usually shouting things like "It's over, Joker!", or "It's over, Clayface!", or "It's over, Clock King!" before proceeding to stop them, cops show up, villain laments capture, ROLL CREDITS. Most of these episodes felt like they were missing that last minute of denouement the plot needed, or the World's Greatest Detective-ing that Batman is kinda-sorta known for. That said, I do believe the writers did the best they could. The problem with B:TAS was Fox Kids' Standards and Practices department, which was notorious for demanding pages of cuts and changes to all their shows. If comics were a ballgame, these episodes were playing with Nerf equipment. It's worth noting that when the series moved over to The WB the writers had a LOT more freedom (as did the Superman cartoon), and this helped guide the DCAU in the direction of being pretty drat good. In short, studio meddling kept it down. But, you can only blame the studio so much. A decent writer can overcome the hurdles thrown by the studio and still create something amazing. Case in point: The Demon's Quest, episode 60-something. It starts with Dick Grayson being kidnapped from his dorm room at school, and Batman in the Batcave trying to find him with the Batcomputer when Ra's Al Ghul (and minion) saunters in. And he's like "yeah I know you're Bruce Wayne and that Dick is missing but the same guys kidnapped Talia (who was introduced in an earlier episode) so let's help each other?" And Batman says "sure, why not?" And they go on this rollicking, globe-trotting adventure through Egypt and Pakistan and poo poo before finding the kidnapped kids hanging over a Lazarus Pit, at which point Mr. Ghul pulls the old "Surprise, Batman! IT WAS ME ALL ALONG!" And Batman just stands there, totally unimpressed, and goes "I know. I've known since the minute you stepped into the Batcave. And then we went out and this happened, that happened, and the other thing happened and they just confirmed my suspicions. Now I'm going to stop you." And Batman stops him. And it was incredible. We got to watch Batman be Batman; we not only saw him do his detective thing, but follow along the logical progression of clues to see HOW he came to his conclusion. Without relying on lazy writing like magical batcomputer info or awkward expository conversation with Alfred or whatever (which the recent movies are still wont to do). All in the space of 22 minutes or so. I was so impressed, I went back to see who wrote the episode. Whoever it was was for drat sure better than whatever hacks DC/WB has been going to lately, and that episode is proof positive that it's not impossible to find someone who isn't going to deliver a cinematic turd like David Goyer, or Solid Snake, or Akiva Goldsman. Someone who not only understands the source material, but can - even in the face of studio meddling - come up with something that is not only entertaining, but actually good. All the while staying true to the characters and not going for THE EDGE or distorting their basic characterizations to hell. A lesson today's DC/WB could take to heart. So I go back to the start and see... "Written by Dennis O'Neil" Welp. Anyway, to answer the original question, The Cat and The Claw pt. 1 was a lovely episode.
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Aug 5, 2016 17:36
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Young Freud posted:
Personally? The episode with Dr Strange was terrible, a really dumb plot that required Wayne to act really really dumb and had a really, really, really dumb payoff. It seemed to have trouble filling the time even though its only 22 minutes long, and the animation looks very dated now. There's several problems I had with BTAS when I re-watched it that were less noticable in later DCAU stuff. The animation quality flew all over the drat place, certain episodes had loving jaw-dropping animation quality, Two-face part 1 and Feet of clay part 2 in particular look more like they should be on a contemporary cinema screen than TV, though a lot of that looks rotoscoped I must admit. Then you have episodes where it looks more like the old Filmation cartoons in the 70s in all the worst ways, characters are underdetailed, stocky, move awkwardly and don't slot into the surroundings very well, this is especially noticeable in the two parters when you watch a well animated episode get followed up by a poorly animated episode finishing off the story and the dip in quality can be very jarring. Two-face part 2 is a good example. People poo poo-talk the new adventures of batman for a lot of the decisions they made with the visuals(i.e., Joker's way too under-detailed face that got rid of his signature lips), as well as Bruce Timm's tendency to only have one body type for men and women, and there are lots of fair criticisms there, but I found the low point in animation quality that the DCAU could reach after Batman was never as bad as the worst animation in BTAS, the quality was a lot more consistent. The standard also improved over time, stuff like the Batman Beyond movie and later seasons of Justice League have some of the best animation I've ever seen on TV. Another problem I had was that they tended to overexplain things in a very awkward manner to try and justify whatever was happening on screen. I remember one episode where Talia and Batman have to team up to fight vertigo, and Talia suddenly goes 'Oh no Batman I've lost my special contact lenses that allow me to resist Vertigo's powers(!?), I can't see poo poo!' so Batman has to babysit her for the next five minutes.
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Aug 6, 2016 01:59
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TAS had its share of bad and mediocre episodes, but it also had a lot of great ones with writing and characters that, for kids tv, was pretty solid. They even took poo poo from it and incorporated it into the "real" Batman. Not just Harley, but also Mr Freeze's entire character. Technically freeze already existed before, but the show created a whole new backstory and motivations and personality that was fully adopted into the comics, overwriting his previous character of "some rear end in a top hat with icegun"
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Aug 6, 2016 02:44
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I'm sure this was explained already, but how did Batman have a dream about Flash coming back through time to warn him when he didn't know who Flash was or that time travel is an ability of his? Or does Flash have the ability to go back in time only via dreams?
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Aug 6, 2016 03:02
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WhyteRyce posted:I'm sure this was explained already Nope! Well, I mean, other than Zach Snyder says gently caress you, that's why.
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Aug 6, 2016 03:49
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WhyteRyce posted:I'm sure this was explained already, but how did Batman have a dream about Flash coming back through time to warn him when he didn't know who Flash was or that time travel is an ability of his? Or does Flash have the ability to go back in time only via dreams? if they had established flash existed and had that power earlier in the movie it might have actually been justified. but zach snyder
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Aug 6, 2016 04:50
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ashpanash posted:Well, I mean, other than Zach Snyder says gently caress you, that's why. Zach snyders mom handing him a caviar sandwich with the crusts cut off, in their gold plated marble mansion kitchen, gesturing to the lowly common folk on the 7 foot TV screen "You don't owe these people anything" MARTHA!!!!!! He screams artistically for no apparent reason
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Aug 6, 2016 05:41
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WhyteRyce posted:I'm sure this was explained already, but how did Batman have a dream about Flash coming back through time to warn him when he didn't know who Flash was or that time travel is an ability of his? Or does Flash have the ability to go back in time only via dreams? It wasn't a dream, when Bruce 'woke up' the papers around his desk were fluttering about from when they got whirled up in the air during the Flash's temporal excursion Nefarious 2.0 posted:if they had established flash existed and had that power earlier in the movie it might have actually been justified. but zach snyder Or when Bruce finished decrypting Lex's files immediately after the 'vision' he could have opened one and seen Flash and gone "Oh poo poo that's the guy I just had a dream about!" but they cut away so we never see his reactions to those files. The weird thing is the editor sometimes really beats you over the head with connections between scenes - like the scene where the senator is telling Lois about the bullet and she has three flashbacks to Africa during the conversation - but leave other stuff unexplained.
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Aug 6, 2016 06:40
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:It wasn't a dream, when Bruce 'woke up' the papers around his desk were fluttering about from when they got whirled up in the air during the Flash's temporal excursion Ok, so then either The World's Greatest Detective didn't notice his Batlair looked like a hurricane ran through it. Or Batman recognized the situation, saw what Flash could do, and then completely forgot about his suspicions about Superman and the warning and confirmation he received from a confirmed superpowered guy and become friends with him because their moms have the same name
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Aug 6, 2016 07:27
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WhyteRyce posted:Ok, so then either The World's Greatest Detective didn't notice his Batlair looked like a hurricane ran through it. Or Batman recognized the situation, saw what Flash could do, and then completely forgot about his suspicions about Superman and the warning and confirmation he received from a confirmed superpowered guy and become friends with him because their moms have the same name beavis: dawns of justice is going to be our generation's manos: hands of fate
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Aug 6, 2016 07:42
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The movie very clearly had a lot of studio interference in it. Like, Zach is not a great director but BvS was more chopped up and weirdly edited than normal with a lot of forced content like the Flash scene or batman/wonder woman stumbling onto the justice league cast and them getting loving random intros in the middle of the movie Wonder Woman herself kind of just lazily enters the movie and appears right at the end to fight the big monster. There was just so much random justice league poo poo thrown in
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Aug 6, 2016 07:45
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WhyteRyce posted:I'm sure this was explained already, but how did Batman have a dream about Flash coming back through time to warn him when he didn't know who Flash was or that time travel is an ability of his? Or does Flash have the ability to go back in time only via dreams? It's a textbook case of "the more you know about it the more you realize how incompetent Zach Snyder/his WB production team is." Way way back 30 years ago DC had a 12 issue series called "Crisis on Infinite Earths." It was basically the second comics crossover mega-event in history (Marvel's "Secret Wars" beats it by 2 years) and Crisis is still the high watermark. It was DC's first time hitting a company-wide "reset" button and easily the best. The whole thing plays out like a technical epic--i.e: huge cast, gigantic scope, immense stakes--and the Ragnarok of Silver/Bronze Age (old-school) storytelling because it was. If you want to read a big comics "EVENT" and only want to read one, make it Crisis because it's the only one I've ever read with any sense of weight. It wasn't this half-hearted "Rebirth" nonsense, no Crisis was DC straight-up euthanizing its old self.   To give perspective to how impressive an accomplishment it is from a narrative level even though it's a big dumb punching book about children's characters... imagine all of these different DC properties showing up in one movie and it working as a satisfying story:  Anyway in the first issue the maxi-plot is that strange poo poo is happening in all corners of the DC Universe. Entire universes of characters are getting wiped out, some weird Ren Faire dude named Pariah is showing up and freaking out, and on the "main" Earth the Flash is randomly popping out of a portal and freaking people out.   About 8-9 issues later the plot is more clear-- the big bad villain the Anti-Monitor is trying to destroy all the Universes because whatever, all the heroes of all the different earths have banded together to stop him so you've got like Atlantean Wizards, Cowboys, 3 different Supermen, etc. all doing poo poo together.  Early on the Flash was captured and imprisoned by the Anti-Monitor in his time-warp zone because reasons, and now has managed to get free. Because it's the Flash he decides to stop the Anti-Monitor's big death ray or whatever by running fast and in doing so we see how and why the Flash was able to appear randomly in Issue 1  And in doing so dies saving the Universe, which was actually a pretty baller move because Wally West got to be the Flash for about 25 years before DC decided "you know what gently caress development and evolution."  Now it's hardly Milton or Homer. It's arguably not even Harry Potter. But it's a nice little narrative and using the Flash as a sort-of time jumper has been a DC tradition since, especially since they've tried to re-do Crisis on Infinite Earths no less than 4 separate times even though it never ever works. -------------------------------- So of course it makes sense that before loving anything about the Flash in the new DC Universe is established we're going to immediately start jumping into having the Flash randomly show up out of portals... or maybe it was a Boom Tube... or whatever and gently caress with Batman (in a dream?).... Like the fact that it's failing to reference better comics stories is fifth or sixth down the list of reasons that scene sucks, but once you know it's doing that too you're left wondering what loving coke dreams Snyder is having to think that any of this is going to work from a narrative sense. To non-fans it's a non-sequitor and to fans it's like "wait why the gently caress are you doing that right now?"
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Aug 6, 2016 08:02
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mind the walrus posted:It's a textbook case of "the more you know about it the more you realize how incompetent Zach Snyder/his WB production team is." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU
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Aug 6, 2016 08:19
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9RVS8cjNN0
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Aug 6, 2016 08:20
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That's a classy avatar friend
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Aug 6, 2016 09:04
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Got it from the Mod Sass thread.
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Aug 6, 2016 09:05
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holy poo poo suicide squad was bad. i liked man of steel and b v s but that was ungodly awful. and not in a way that can be salvaged by editing; sure, there were 3 films rattling around in there and the direction felt conflicting, but all of the styles and directions were bad.
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Aug 6, 2016 10:09
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WhyteRyce posted:I'm sure this was explained already, but how did Batman have a dream about Flash coming back through time to warn him when he didn't know who Flash was or that time travel is an ability of his? Or does Flash have the ability to go back in time only via dreams? There is a lot of thoughtful responses to this question, but the general answer is: In DC continuity, the Speed Force allows the Flash to do literally anything, and he is actually far more powerful and "bullshitty" than almost any other character, even Superman. (Maybe not Silver Age Superman, but I digress).
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Aug 6, 2016 10:37
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mind the walrus posted:Got it from the Mod Sass thread. A whole bunch of active posters being given the same avatar/redtext is not helping my forums experience be better, and I wish it hadn't happened. 
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Aug 6, 2016 10:55
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Serious Frolicking posted:marvel comics have no intrinsic quality which make them better for movies than dc. Sure they do. Stan Lee came from horror / monster comics, and the characters he either created or developed show his roots. You have characters that are straight up monsters like Hulk or the Thing. You have characters becoming heroes in spite of themselves. Tony Stark is a drunk, Peter Parker is an awkward kid in over his head, Dr. Strange is a dick. Marvel characters start off flawed, and it gives them something to reach for. For the most part they started off with room to grow. But with DC the characters are idealized both as the heroes and as their alter egos. They start as strong jawed puffed up boy scouts who who become puffed up boy scouts with super powers. They don't really go anywhere. They just keep being more of the same but bigger. I mean yeah DC has played around with breaking that mold over the years, but the difference between Marvel and DC is pretty clear and dates back to their early days. Then you have the added problem where you have gently caress around with the DC characters to give yourself room to move them in an arc so they're not boring, and you have to do that without pissing off the fan-base. And clearly no one working at WB at the moment has a clue how to crack that nut.
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Aug 6, 2016 11:29
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Frankenstyle posted:Then you have the added problem where you have gently caress around with the DC characters to give yourself room to move them in an arc so they're not boring, and you have to do that without pissing off the fan-base. And clearly no one working at WB at the moment has a clue how to crack that nut. I'm telling you, going with a Titans roster where the overriding theme is "gently caress you Mom and Dad for setting an unattainable standard whose legacy I can never escape" is the best way to give everyone the breathing room they need. The WB and their creatives get to put their mark on young characters who haven't been codified into fossilized amber in the collective subconscious. The original Justice League characters get to be shown from a new angle that lets them show faults in their "too good to be real" personas without compromising their iconography. The audience gets to see things that are largely brand new to them but distinctively familiar. It's so obvious it almost hurts.
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Aug 6, 2016 11:34
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Neurosis posted:holy poo poo suicide squad was bad. i liked man of steel and b v s but that was ungodly awful. i cannot begin to fathom how bad a movie had to be for someone with lovely enough taste to like those two movies to consider it bad.
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Aug 6, 2016 12:06
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Frankenstyle posted:Sure they do. Stan Lee came from horror / monster comics, and the characters he either created or developed show his roots. You have characters that are straight up monsters like Hulk or the Thing. You have characters becoming heroes in spite of themselves. Tony Stark is a drunk, Peter Parker is an awkward kid in over his head, Dr. Strange is a dick. Marvel characters start off flawed, and it gives them something to reach for. For the most part they started off with room to grow. Marvel has also been releasing some great comic over the last couple of years; especially Secret Wars 2: this time not a blatant excuse to sell toys, I also enjoy watching people lose their minds that Marvel is being too PC and "progressive" for introducing characters of all races and genders over the old heroes. But back to DC movies, I really hope that Sandman adaptation is dead, because I wouldn't trust WB/Universal to make a good movie out of that property because it doesn't work as a film. Have it be on HBO and go head to head with Starz American Gods adaptation
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Aug 6, 2016 17:09
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achillesforever6 posted:last couple of years; especially Secret Wars 2: this time not a blatant excuse to sell toys Uhhh 
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Aug 6, 2016 17:20
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drat it this is what I get, I met 2015 Secret Wars
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Aug 6, 2016 17:46
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It's ok even Spider-Man had to teach the Beyonder to poop:
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Aug 6, 2016 17:49
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mind the walrus posted:It's ok even Spider-Man had to teach the Beyonder to poop: he totally poo poo in his uniform on or the floor
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Aug 6, 2016 17:55
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mind the walrus posted:It's ok even Spider-Man had to teach the Beyonder to poop: Comic books are such poo poo
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Aug 6, 2016 17:59
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Cowman posted:he totally poo poo in his uniform on or the floor I bet he did an upper decker in Spidey's toilet, and being that he's the Beyonder it's probably sentient, too 
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Aug 6, 2016 18:02
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Don Tacorleone posted:Comic books are such poo poo what are you talking about that ruled
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Aug 6, 2016 18:02
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