Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

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Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

The joke is that you can listen to Ron Paul speak for five minutes and agree with pretty much everything he says. End the drug war! No more military adventurism! All good stuff. And then when you hit five minutes and one second, he starts talking about repealing the Civil Rights Act or vaccine fluoridation or something else completely insane.

fake edit: beaten

# ? Aug 4, 2016 15:54

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# ? May 21, 2024 14:00

WrenP-Complete: Jul 27, 2012

Curvature of Earth posted:

Unfortunately, no, though I'm sure Ron Paul has bad opinions about food safety regulation.

Brb testing this.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 15:58

WrenP-Complete: Jul 27, 2012

https://youtu.be/1YjBoHAzhiU
I got to 1:05 which was abolish the income tax time.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 16:02

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Five minutes is more of a lifetime absolute maximum rather than a hard number.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 17:16

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

You know, like radiation exposure.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 17:17

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

paragon1 posted:

You know, like radiation exposure.

I'd argue that right-wing libertarianism is more harmful tho

# ? Aug 4, 2016 17:20

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Man I don't want to have to start wearing a Libertarian exposure ring like I have to for xrays. They'd lock me in a lead-lined hospital room with no internet connection after the first exposure test.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:11

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Goon Danton posted:

Man I don't want to have to start wearing a Libertarian exposure ring like I have to for xrays. They'd lock me in a lead-lined hospital room with no internet connection after the first exposure test.

That's a horrifying scenario :aaaaa:

# ? Aug 4, 2016 22:04

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

Who What Now posted:

To be fair "Black Freedom Day" sounds dope as poo poo.

Juneteenth should be a federal holiday.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 22:47

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Goon Danton posted:

Man I don't want to have to start wearing a Libertarian exposure ring like I have to for xrays. They'd lock me in a lead-lined hospital room with no internet connection after the first exposure test.

I'm sorry sir, I'm afraid the massive doses of Mises.org that you've exposed yourself to have given you Freedom cancer. I estimate that you have about 8 weeks to live.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 23:15

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

paragon1 posted:

I'm sorry sir, I'm afraid the massive doses of Mises.org that you've exposed yourself to have given you Freedom cancer. I estimate that you have about 8 weeks to live.

If you would like to live, then you can choose to become part of our hospital's indentured servitude department

# ? Aug 4, 2016 23:19

Curvature of Earth: Sep 9, 2011; Projected cost of
invading Canada:
$900

Twerkteam Pizza posted:

If you would like to live, then you can choose to become part of our hospital's indentured servitude department

Surely at that point the hospital could make more money by liquidating their ~~organs~~ assets and selling them on the open market. Besides, thanks to the high cost of labor (and pesky costs of keeping slaves alive), businesses will start replacing every single worker with robots any day now.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 00:46

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Curvature of Earth posted:

Surely at that point the hospital could make more money by liquidating their ~~organs~~ assets and selling them on the open market. Besides, thanks to the high cost of labor (and pesky costs of keeping slaves alive), businesses will start replacing every single worker with robots any day now.

I've been out ~~Orwelled~~ Libertied :ohdear:

# ? Aug 5, 2016 00:52

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Curvature of Earth posted:

Surely at that point the hospital could make more money by liquidating their ~~organs~~ assets and selling them on the open market. Besides, thanks to the high cost of labor (and pesky costs of keeping slaves alive), businesses will start replacing every single worker with robots any day now.

Pointless, at those sorts of Freedoms levels the organs have already liberated themselves via liquefaction days ago.

Only noble gasses are really free, when you think about it.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 01:24

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

paragon1 posted:

I'm sorry sir, I'm afraid the massive doses of Mises.org that you've exposed yourself to have given you Freedom cancer. I estimate that you have about 8 weeks to live.

That's absurd! I got a second opinion from my dentist, and he says I'll be fine once we drill out my fillings to get rid of the toxins.

...oh no. Oh No.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 02:03

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Goon Danton posted:

That's absurd! I got a second opinion from my dentist, and he says I'll be fine once we drill out my fillings to get rid of the toxins.

...oh no. Oh No.

Ohhhhhhhhhh yeah.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 03:59

White Coke: May 29, 2015

Goon Danton posted:

That's absurd! I got a second opinion from my dentist, and he says I'll be fine once we drill out my fillings to get rid of the toxins.

...oh no. Oh No.

Totally unnecessary. Just pump yourself full of colloidal silver till your skin turns blue.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 06:21

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

Goon Danton posted:

The Libertarian Party has a few advantages over other third parties. First, they actually have a good elevator pitch; who doesn't like Freedom (before they find out what you mean by it)? The Ron Paul Five Minute Rule extends beyond the family. Also, the obsession with state and local rule means that they have an actual existing party infrastructure, as opposed to using the "vehicle for a vanity presidential run" model like the Reform Party did.

I'm half tempted to give him credit for not going Full DiLorenzo about it, but on second thought, no. No credit.

Despite their obsession with state and local rule the party controls a grand total of 4 state legislature seats. Nationwide.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 07:33

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

I don't feel good, guys. Something is wrong. I... I... I am interested in your thoughts on the manipulation of the money supply by the unaccountable ~~jews~~ bureaucrats at the Federal Reserve. Surely as leftists you would be concerned about the effects of an oligarchic institution like this having such control over people's day to day lives? I came across this article that might help elucidate the problem even further: Deflation is Always Good for the Economy

quote:

For most experts, deflation, which they define as a general decline in prices of goods and services, is bad news since it generates expectations for a further decline in prices.

As a result, they hold, consumers postpone their buying of goods at present since they expect to buy these goods at lower prices in the future. This weakens the overall flow of spending and in turn weakens the economy.

Hence, such commentators hold that policies that counter deflation will also counter the slump.

If deflation leads to an economic slump then policies that reverse deflation should be good for the economy.

Reversing deflation would imply introducing policies that support general increases in the prices of goods, i.e., inflation. This means that inflation could actually be an agent of economic growth.

According to most experts, a little bit of inflation can actually be a good thing. Mainstream thinkers are of the view that inflation of 2% is not harmful to economic growth, but that inflation of 10% could be bad news. (Indeed the Fed�s inflation target is 2%.)

Thus, we can conclude that at a rate of inflation of 10%, it is likely that consumers are going to form rising inflation expectations.

According to popular thinking, in response to a high rate of inflation, consumers will speed up their expenditure on goods at present, which should boost economic growth.

So why then is a rate of inflation of 10% or higher regarded by experts as a bad thing?

Clearly there is a problem with the popular definitions of inflation and deflation.

Inflation is Not Essentially a Rise in Prices

Inflation is not about general increases in prices as such, but about the increase in the money supply. As a rule the increase in money supply sets in motion general increases in prices. This, however, need not always be the case.

The price of a good is the amount of money asked per unit of it. For a constant amount of money and an expanding quantity of goods, prices will actually fall.

Prices will also fall when the rate of increase in the supply of goods exceeds the rate of increase in the money supply. For instance, if the money supply increases by 5% and the quantity of goods increases by 10%, prices will fall by 5%, ceteris paribus.

A fall in prices in this example cannot conceal the fact that we have an inflation of 5% here on account of the increase in the money supply.

Rising Prices Aren't the Problem with Inflation

The reason why inflation is bad news is not because of increases in prices as such, but because of the damage inflation inflicts to the wealth-formation process. Here is why.

The chief role of money is to fulfill the role of the medium of exchange. Money enables us to exchange something we have for something we want.

Before an exchange can take place, an individual must have something useful that he can exchange for money. Once he secures the money, he can then exchange it for a good or goods he wants. Note that by means of money we have here an exchange of something for something.

But now consider a situation in which money is created out of "thin air" � this is precisely what the counterfeiter does. This type of money sets the platform for an exchange of nothing for something. The counterfeiter exchanges the printed money for goods without producing anything useful.

The counterfeiter takes from the pool of real goods without making any contribution to the pool.

The economic effect of money that was created out of thin air is exactly the same as that of counterfeit money � it impoverishes wealth generators.

The money created out of thin air diverts real wealth toward the holders of new money. As a result, less real wealth is left to fund wealth-generating activities.

This in turn leads to a weakening in economic growth. Remember only wealth generating activities can generate wealth and hence grow an economy.

Note that as a result of the increase in the money supply what we have here is more money per unit of goods, and thus, higher prices. What matters, however, is not price rises as such but the increase in the money supply that sets in motion the exchange of nothing for something or "the counterfeit effect."

The exchange of nothing for something, as we have seen, weakens the process of real wealth formation. Therefore, anything that promotes increases in the money supply can only make things much worse. So while inflation is an increase in the money supply, deflation is a decrease in the money supply.

We have seen that increases in the money supply, i.e., inflation gives rise to various non-productive activities, which we can also call "bubble activities."

Easy-Money Policies Divert Resources to Non-Productive Activities

Because these activities cannot stand on their own feet (they require the diversion of wealth from wealth generators) the increase in bubble activities on account of increases in the money supply weakens wealth generators' ability to generate wealth.

Hence, loose monetary policies aimed at countering a fall in prices (i.e., fighting deflation), do nothing more than provide support for non-productive activities. Such policies can produce the illusion of success as long as there are enough wealth generators to fund non-productive activities.

For instance, in a company of 10 departments, 8 departments are making profits and the other 2 losses. A responsible CEO will shutdown or restructure the 2 departments that make losses. Failing to do so will divert funding from wealth generators toward loss-making departments, thus weakening the foundation of the entire company. Without the removal, or restructuring, of the loss-making departments there is the risk that the entire company could eventually go belly up.

From this simple example we can deduce that once the percentage of wealth-generating activities falls sharply there will not be enough wealth to support an expansion in economic activity. The economy then falls into a prolonged slump. Under these conditions, the more the central bank tries to fix the symptoms, the worse things become.

Once, however, non-productive activities are allowed to go belly-up, and the sources of the increase in the money supply are sealed off, one can expect a genuine, real-wealth expansion to ensue. With the expansion of real wealth for a constant stock of money, we will have a fall in prices. Note whether prices fall on account of the liquidation of non-productive activities or on account of real-wealth expansion, it is always good news. In the first case, it indicates that more funding is now available for wealth generation, while in the second case, it indicates that more wealth is actually being generated.

The major threat to the economy then is not deflation but policies aimed at countering it.

I would love to ignore your thoughts on this article, as I feel it is an excellent summary of the misconceptions Statist authorities try to indoctrinate us with. It is likely also tied in to the causes of my apartment filling up with bootleg Hong Kong action blurays and my fingernails falling out oh god what is happening to me

# ? Aug 5, 2016 15:30

CovfefeCatCafe: Apr 11, 2006; A fresh attitude
brewed daily!

Goon Danton posted:

I don't feel good, guys. Something is wrong. I... I... I am interested in your thoughts on the manipulation of the money supply by the unaccountable ~~jews~~ bureaucrats at the Federal Reserve. Surely as leftists you would be concerned about the effects of an oligarchic institution like this having such control over people's day to day lives? I came across this article that might help elucidate the problem even further: Deflation is Always Good for the Economy

I would love to ignore your thoughts on this article, as I feel it is an excellent summary of the misconceptions Statist authorities try to indoctrinate us with. It is likely also tied in to the causes of my apartment filling up with bootleg Hong Kong action blurays and my fingernails falling out oh god what is happening to me

IANAE (I am not an economist), but I don't know what the gently caress all these words are trying to say and I feel dumber for having read it. He talks about "productive" and "non-productive" activities. Taking this article on it's face, it seems like he claims in an inflationary environment, people are more willing to waste money on fruitless endeavors, than when in an deflationary environment. Which is counter to basically everything about economics.

Which leaves me to believe this is some oddly coded dogwhistling basically saying "in a deflation, only the 'right' people will have money. All those others won't."

# ? Aug 5, 2016 15:46

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Goon Danton posted:

I don't feel good, guys. Something is wrong. I... I... I am interested in your thoughts on the manipulation of the money supply by the unaccountable ~~jews~~ bureaucrats at the Federal Reserve. Surely as leftists you would be concerned about the effects of an oligarchic institution like this having such control over people's day to day lives? I came across this article that might help elucidate the problem even further:

I would love to ignore your thoughts on this article, as I feel it is an excellent summary of the misconceptions Statist authorities try to indoctrinate us with. It is likely also tied in to the causes of my apartment filling up with bootleg Hong Kong action blurays and my fingernails falling out oh god what is happening to me

Looks like someone got a nasty infection of Purestrain Gold

I recommend a course of soothing lectures on social democracy and staying away from all precious metals for at least 4 weeks. Oh, and next time you go on a Libertarian website, use protection for chrissakes.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 15:52

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

*cocks shotgun*

I'm sorry, Goon Danton.

Stopped reading the article when I saw their entire line of reasoning relies on the reader being ignorant of the concept of sticky wages.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 16:29

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

Stay safe, Ghost Danton

and stay far away from the produce section

# ? Aug 5, 2016 16:49

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

Goon Danton posted:

I would love to ignore your thoughts on this article, as I feel it is an excellent summary of the misconceptions Statist authorities try to indoctrinate us with. It is likely also tied in to the causes of my apartment filling up with bootleg Hong Kong action blurays and my fingernails falling out oh god what is happening to me

On a scale of one to Prince Harry, how handsome do you consider yourself?

# ? Aug 5, 2016 18:32

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Goon Danton posted:

I don't feel good, guys. Something is wrong. I... I... I am interested in your thoughts on the manipulation of the money supply by the unaccountable ~~jews~~ bureaucrats at the Federal Reserve. Surely as leftists you would be concerned about the effects of an oligarchic institution like this having such control over people's day to day lives? I came across this article that might help elucidate the problem even further: Deflation is Always Good for the Economy

I would love to ignore your thoughts on this article, as I feel it is an excellent summary of the misconceptions Statist authorities try to indoctrinate us with. It is likely also tied in to the causes of my apartment filling up with bootleg Hong Kong action blurays and my fingernails falling out oh god what is happening to me

RUOK

# ? Aug 6, 2016 03:53

NewMars: Mar 10, 2013

Goon Danton posted:

I don't feel good, guys. Something is wrong. I... I... I am interested in your thoughts on the manipulation of the money supply by the unaccountable ~~jews~~ bureaucrats at the Federal Reserve. Surely as leftists you would be concerned about the effects of an oligarchic institution like this having such control over people's day to day lives? I came across this article that might help elucidate the problem even further: Deflation is Always Good for the Economy

I would love to ignore your thoughts on this article, as I feel it is an excellent summary of the misconceptions Statist authorities try to indoctrinate us with. It is likely also tied in to the causes of my apartment filling up with bootleg Hong Kong action blurays and my fingernails falling out oh god what is happening to me

I'm afraid to say there is almost nothing American political healthcare can do for you. Avoiding all Donald Trump and Gary Johnson you come across may help with the symptoms, however treatment options are limited. We could try some Jill Stein, but that would almost certainly just make things worse. Moderate doses of Clinton and Sanders can usually help, but I'm afraid they might just produce adverse effects in an advanced case like yours.

If you're willing to ship out to the UK, some Jeremy Corbyn might help, it's proven to be remarkably resilient and comes with free jam. But stay away from that Owen Smith. It might look a bit alike at first, but it's mostly just air.

NewMars fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Aug 8, 2016

# ? Aug 8, 2016 13:13

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Jill Stein won't work. I was exposed to a small level of Green Party nonsense around the 2000 election, so my body has natural defenses in place. One might even say I've been... vaccinated against them.

Twerkteam Pizza posted:

RUOK

Yeah, I think I'm done playing were-libertarian. I have actual mental health issues to deal with, I don't need to add pretend ones on top of them. We all remember Toblerone Triangular.

# ? Aug 8, 2016 14:41

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Goon Danton posted:

Jill Stein won't work. I was exposed to a small level of Green Party nonsense around the 2000 election, so my body has natural defenses in place. One might even say I've been... vaccinated against them.

Yeah, I think I'm done playing were-libertarian. I have actual mental health issues to deal with, I don't need to add pretend ones on top of them. We all remember Toblerone Triangular.

I thought Toblerone Triangular was just a clever troll, did they end up being the libertarian equivalent to Niggerstomper58?

# ? Aug 8, 2016 15:35

8-Bit Scholar: Jan 23, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

I am starting to suspect that there are not actually very many libertarians in this, the libertarian thread.

# ? Aug 8, 2016 15:36

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

8-Bit Scholar posted:

I am starting to suspect that there are not actually very many libertarians in this, the libertarian thread.

Be the change you want to see in the world, friend

# ? Aug 8, 2016 15:39

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

MikeCrotch posted:

I thought Toblerone Triangular was just a clever troll, did they end up being the libertarian equivalent to Niggerstomper58?

When TT quit he said it was because he was starting to slip into those thought patterns more and more easily and it scared him

# ? Aug 8, 2016 15:43

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Literally The Worst posted:

When TT quit he said it was because he was starting to slip into those thought patterns more and more easily and it scared him

Another victim of irony overdose. WHEN WILL THIS MADNESS END

# ? Aug 8, 2016 15:45

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

8-Bit Scholar posted:

I am starting to suspect that there are not actually very many libertarians in this, the libertarian thread.

That's because we're waiting for one to show us the light.

# ? Aug 8, 2016 15:49

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

8-Bit Scholar posted:

I am starting to suspect that there are not actually very many libertarians in this, the libertarian thread.

We used to have one! But then he got banned. And then we had another one, but he had a meltdown pretty much immediately when we actually tried to engage him in debate. And then we had another one, but he outed himself as a straight-up white nationalist pretty quickly and got banned. And then the first one came back for a while, but then he threatened to defraud the forums if the mods didn't do what he told them, so he got permabanned.

I'm sure you will do better though! Is there any topic in particular you would like to discuss?

# ? Aug 8, 2016 16:18

Strawman: Feb 9, 2008; Tortuga means turtle, and that's me. I take my time but I always win.

Goon Danton posted:

We used to have one! But then he got banned. And then we had another one, but he had a meltdown pretty much immediately when we actually tried to engage him in debate. And then we had another one, but he outed himself as a straight-up white nationalist pretty quickly and got banned. And then the first one came back for a while, but then he threatened to defraud the forums if the mods didn't do what he told them, so he got permabanned.

And then there was Lolitasama, who stopped being a libertarian when he saw how deeply the ideology was tied to racism.

# ? Aug 8, 2016 17:09

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cebook-business

Ahahahahahahahaha!

# ? Aug 8, 2016 17:33

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

CommieGIR posted:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cebook-business

Ahahahahahahahaha!

So for anyone not reading the YOSPOS bitcoin thread, a Mt Gox level event has occurred in the magical world of bitcoin: it turned out that Bitfinex, one of the largest exchanges, was lying about all of their great security practices, and then someone noticed and took all of the bitcoins. But this time is special: this exchange also offers trading in other digital currencies, so roughly 64% of the assets weren't effected at all (only bitcoins were stolen). So at first it looked like only the bitcoin users were screwed; the price began to plummet, suicide hotline was posted to /r/bitcoin, etc

Now Bitfinex has announced the great idea of socializing the losses between all of their customers, so everyone across the board loses 36% of whatever they had (they described this as "a haircut"). On each user's balance page a new balance of Bitfinex Tokens will appear, basically a stack of IOUs valued at $1 each that users will be able to trade with each other at some future date, with the promise that the tokens will be paid back at some other future date. It's a big convoluted mess and also illegal as gently caress on many levels

How do the rugged individualist captains of industry in the bitcoiner community feel about receiving a bailout from the non-bitcoiners? Unsurprisingly, they're ecstatic. /r/bitcoin is full of praise for Bitfinex for only losing 36% of everything and for having the wisdom to spread out the losses among everyone, and also full of begging people not to take Bitfinex to court

And then: "Bitfinex itself will not be taking a haircut"

Naturally all trading on Bitfinex is closed for now and there are people betting that even when trading opens, withdrawals will mysteriously not be working. It's like the good old Mt Gox days all over again

QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Aug 8, 2016

# ? Aug 8, 2016 18:03

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

So how long until we find out that the exchange robbed itself to our have an excuse to rob the customers?

# ? Aug 8, 2016 18:12

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

It seems likely that the exchange is bankrupt / has already exit scammed and all of this poo poo is for show. Mt Gox strung people along for months before finally closing its doors, and basically everything that happened then is happening now (except Mt Gox didn't issue any IOUs; someone later came along and created those out of seemingly nothing, basically a redeemer voucher for some share of the missing Mt Gox bitcoins should they ever be found lol)

# ? Aug 8, 2016 18:25

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# ? May 21, 2024 14:00

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

8-Bit Scholar posted:

I am starting to suspect that there are not actually very many libertarians in this, the libertarian thread.

What are your thoughts on time preference?

# ? Aug 8, 2016 18:55

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

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