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So, I have been toying with the idea of trying to enter into the industry that is bar tending, but I'm old, (33) but can easily pass for 27 if that matters, (still old). And never worked in hospitality at all, nothing. So what have I been doing with my life, well, I got a science PhD and now seriously reconsidering life choices and literally the last thing I want to do is a post doc.  I totally appreciate that I would not be the usual type of person trying to break into the industry. Is it possible, or would people laugh at my ignorance for even inquiring?
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Aug 4, 2016 16:48
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The worst people can say is no, chase the dream man. I think never having any restaurant experience at all is worse than "being old" though. I have no problem training people to make drinks and how to respectfully cut off a drunk but I at least want them to know what I mean when I tell them to marry the ketchups.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:16
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Fwiw I think your best bet is to apply for door and barback positions and just make it clear that you would LIKE to learn more. Just get your foot in the door and prove you're not retarded, my two best employees to date went this route. Actually me too, come to think of it. I got my job telling the dude hiring that I was willing to come in at 2 AM just to clean up puke if it meant I was working there. Now I'm scheduling my owners on when they come into work. Just get in there somewhere. Take a dishwashing job and knock that fucker out of the park, and when anyone asks say you're looking for more of a challenge. It's like any job in that regard.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:26
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The good thing about "entry level" restaurant positions is that they don't pretend like you need 3-5 years of experience and a LinkedIn profile, it's more of a "warm body" situation. And whether the place is good or bad, you bet you're going to learn a lot one way or the other.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:32
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Also shooting for the old quadruple post here, but any place that tells you that you're a) too old or b) can't learn isn't worth wasting your time working for, so you're actually in a better position than you think
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Aug 4, 2016 21:34
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If you live in any place where there is a craft cocktail scene, you may want to hit up the high end bars/restaurant groups/syrup makers for opportunities in their batching/production bars. I always like hiring people with scientific backgrounds to work what we call "small hands" shifts and it would give you an opportunity to learn how to taste, balance, and properly produce good drinks. That combined with some barbacking or event bartending (a little further up the road) would be a pretty solid knowledge base.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:39
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If you just buy a speed pour and practice at home til you can measure an ounce an a half with your eyes closed you could conceivably lie your way in as well, via con dios
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Aug 4, 2016 21:46
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mooyashi posted:Just get your foot in the door and prove you're not retarded And you'll probably be amazed at how many people can't pull the latter off.
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Aug 5, 2016 18:29
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mooyashi posted:If you just buy a speed pour and practice at home til you can measure an ounce an a half with your eyes closed you could conceivably lie your way in as well, via con dios Did this as suggested in the previous thread many, many years ago. Got in, been in and out ever since. Do that. Also MNB's suggestion is solid. I know a dude who was chopping ice for a fancy cocktail joint for a long time, then backed like 2 or 3 shifts, and now has one or two nights a week at a fancy, fancy cocktail joint in hipster/incoming WASP nest area and is swimming in cash because of it. Took him about a year from ice choppy to fancy pants Mr. Mixolologlologolist. Inspiration! ALSO: I have a guy that swears that our house pour is/should be 1.25 oz. Please please tell me precisely what amount of booze you pour into a vodka soda. I have been at 1.5 oz for loving ever, because that's what it is, and he's like "Naw man, 1.25."
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Aug 5, 2016 20:59
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FaceEater posted:ALSO: I have a guy that swears that our house pour is/should be 1.25 oz. Please please tell me precisely what amount of booze you pour into a vodka soda. I have been at 1.5 oz for loving ever, because that's what it is, and he's like "Naw man, 1.25." That guy sounds like a piece of poo poo, or else he was working for a piece of poo poo. Standard pour anywhere I've seen is either 1 or 1.5, I have never seen a 1.25oz pour for anything outside of cocktails where the ingredient list is listed on the menu because you're paying $14/drink.
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Aug 6, 2016 01:55
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mooyashi posted:Wait you don't run out of Bloody Mary mix every night around 10 like I do? That was about the time my blender broke down a lot of nights.
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Aug 7, 2016 00:07
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BattleMoose posted:So, I have been toying with the idea of trying to enter into the industry that is bar tending, but I'm old, (33) but can easily pass for 27 if that matters, (still old). And never worked in hospitality at all, nothing. So what have I been doing with my life, well, I got a science PhD and now seriously reconsidering life choices and literally the last thing I want to do is a post doc. Keep two fingers in your science stuff while you're doing bartending poo poo if you end up trying to. Here's an except from one of my my post-doctoral papers on bartending as an old:  If it's what you really want to do you can find a way to make it work I guess but I honestly see no way that anyone with a STEM degree would ever find it worthwhile on the balance, let alone a STEM PhD. The general reasons you should look to get out of bar-tending as you get older: 1) less jobs for older bartenders, 2) of those jobs many fewer pay a tolerable amount of money, 3) your friends become less and less willing to talk to you if you work nights as you get older, 4) your friends become less and less available on non-weekends as you get older, 5) anything said for friends also goes for potential girlfriends, 6) the job has physical elements like being on your feet and noise and stooping and cleaning that get more tiresome as you get older, 7) the places that do hire you will often try to push you into being a bar manager after a while anyway and that job is usually worse than just bartending. raton fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Aug 7, 2016 |
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Aug 7, 2016 00:12
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poop dood posted:Jiminy loving Christmas, I live in Virginia and minimum wage for tipped employees is $2.13/hr. A lot of places in NYC will ask you a) How much experience do you have and then b) How much NYC experience do you have? There are also lots of places that just hire the young/female/beautiful. But then there are lots and lots of places overall. Anyway you probably won't get a job you're happy with as your first NYC job, but after six months you should be able to shift. Making contacts is important as any open hiring you see on Craigslist is a sign of a place that can't get their staff to bring people in to work there, which usually means that everyone there is trying to leave. Also you should probably be aware that some bars in NYC are very image conscious -- a hipster place expects you to come to the interview in such a way that they can easily imagine you in costume the night of. The last item of concern is that some places, especially around Times Square, are basically tourist bars and from time to time this means only people from outside of the US, which means they don't tip -- but the bar is still in NYC, which also means (with some exceptions) they don't pay you. There are very few bars in Queens and almost none you'd want to work at so you'd have a commute as a bartender if you live there. The subway is great during the day but coming home at 5am (bars close at 4 in NYC) when a lot of the trains are 45 minutes apart and you probably have to make a transfer is a loving nightmare, a cab home would probably be 25-30 and doing that every night is a little much. Neither Queens (except for one distant neighborhood you won't be in anyway) nor Harlem are anything really approaching dangerous any more in any real way. raton fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Aug 7, 2016 |
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Aug 7, 2016 00:20
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FaceEater posted:ALSO: I have a guy that swears that our house pour is/should be 1.25 oz. Please please tell me precisely what amount of booze you pour into a vodka soda. I have been at 1.5 oz for loving ever, because that's what it is, and he's like "Naw man, 1.25." It's 1.5oz. Proof 1: Of loving course it is Jesus Christ Proof 2: 1.5oz of spirits at 40% ABV = 0.6 oz pure alcohol. 6oz of wine (1/4th of a bottle) at 10% ABV = 0.6oz pure alcohol. 12oz of beer at 5% ABV (average for production beers) = 0.6oz pure alcohol
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Aug 7, 2016 00:35
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Sheep-Goats posted:It's 1.5oz. Can confirm as a doctor with an interest in drinking that 12 oz beer, 5oz wine (at 12% estimated ABV instead of 10%), and 1.5oz spirits is considered the "standard drink" referenced both in the office and in the medical literature across the US. 14 grams (approx) 0.6 oz is the standard. That, of course, makes it hard to calculate standard drinks when my patients say they have 4-5 32oz beers daily.
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Aug 7, 2016 02:05
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Cantorsdust posted:Can confirm as a doctor with an interest in drinking that 12 oz beer, 5oz wine (at 12% estimated ABV instead of 10%), and 1.5oz spirits is considered the "standard drink" referenced both in the office and in the medical literature across the US. 14 grams (approx) 0.6 oz is the standard. Oh. I just lie. Is that ok?
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Aug 7, 2016 03:52
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Sheep-Goats posted:A lot of places in NYC will ask you a) How much experience do you have and then b) How much NYC experience do you have? There are also lots of places that just hire the young/female/beautiful. But then there are lots and lots of places overall. Anyway you probably won't get a job you're happy with as your first NYC job, but after six months you should be able to shift. Making contacts is important as any open hiring you see on Craigslist is a sign of a place that can't get their staff to bring people in to work there, which usually means that everyone there is trying to leave. Also you should probably be aware that some bars in NYC are very image conscious -- a hipster place expects you to come to the interview in such a way that they can easily imagine you in costume the night of. The last item of concern is that some places, especially around Times Square, are basically tourist bars and from time to time this means only people from outside of the US, which means they don't tip -- but the bar is still in NYC, which also means (with some exceptions) they don't pay you. So make as many connections as possible, look hip for interviews, and don't expect my first NYC bar gig to be ideal. I can handle that. Thanks for making it sound doable.
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Aug 7, 2016 04:01
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The biggest reason you won't / can't find a job in New York is because of nepotism. Everyone gives all the positions to uncles, cousins, aunts, sons, daughters, boyfriends, girlfriends, etc etc...
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Aug 7, 2016 05:07
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1.25 was the standard in UK for a while, when I started 12 years ago reading UK writers or old books and converting was a pain in the rear end. If I remember correctly, has something to do with the use of a pony glass as a unit of measurement but I'll be damned if I'm going to look that up right now. Some large festivals use 1.25 as their base pour as well, but that's more about alcohol consumption control in large crowds and maximizing profits. SF the standard measurement is either 1.5oz or 2oz. My bars are all costed for oz. PS - took vacation from my real bar job to work Outside Lands this weekend and I'm rolling into day four feeling very old and creaky... This years required POS system is extra lovely and because it's slow/complicated/extra expensive this year folks are tipping much less than previous years. Doesn't matter much to me because I negotiated a really high hourly (and am excited to not be anyone's boss for a weekend!) but drat do I feel bad for the schmucks makin' $13 an hour. Festivals are a different beast, it's fun to switch it up.
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Aug 7, 2016 16:14
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Sheep-Goats posted:And awesome graph! Yeah its probably not the best idea I have ever had. But the idea of being able to work around where people are having fun and somewhat physical work, is just so super appealing. Also, what happens to old bartenders?
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Aug 7, 2016 17:16
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BattleMoose posted:Yeah its probably not the best idea I have ever had. But the idea of being able to work around where people are having fun and somewhat physical work, is just so super appealing. We get transferred to Professor Willow
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Aug 7, 2016 22:03
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BattleMoose posted:Yeah its probably not the best idea I have ever had. But the idea of being able to work around where people are having fun and somewhat physical work, is just so super appealing. There are none, because their livers have already given up and they're dead.
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Aug 7, 2016 22:08
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navyjack posted:We get transferred to Professor Willow Only if your IVs are terrible.
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Aug 8, 2016 04:58
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BattleMoose posted:Also, what happens to old bartenders? They buy into the joint and work on destroying the other owners' phylacteries
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Aug 8, 2016 06:40
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Sheep-Goats posted:The general reasons you should look to get out of bar-tending as you get older: 1) less jobs for older bartenders, 2) of those jobs many fewer pay a tolerable amount of money, 3) your friends become less and less willing to talk to you if you work nights as you get older, 4) your friends become less and less available on non-weekends as you get older, 5) anything said for friends also goes for potential girlfriends, 6) the job has physical elements like being on your feet and noise and stooping and cleaning that get more tiresome as you get older, 7) the places that do hire you will often try to push you into being a bar manager after a while anyway and that job is usually worse than just bartending. Precisely the reasons I stopped bartending. I do miss the money, but I don't miss all the other things. I worked weekends my entire bartending career and now that I have weekends off I'd never go back to it full time, I'm not making the kind of money I was when I was behind a bar but the other things make up for it.
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Aug 9, 2016 01:42
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So, the hotel where I work has decided to plant some assorted herbs in our garden rather then buy them in. This includes the mint I use for my mojitos. For some reason ( management ), normal mint hasn't made the cut, and I was left making mojitos with flavoured mint. Now, I've had some good results with applemint, but despite it's aggressive growth we are running out. Morning crew using it for flavoured water isn't helping either. Management says to just use chocolate mint for mojitos, but i've made a test drink and it just tastes off. No chocolate OR mint flavour. Any changes I could make to a recipe to bring it back up to speed? ( Please say impossible, get real mint ). Maybe add more ( bleh ), Add mint syrup instead of cannes..
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Aug 9, 2016 17:36
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Rip it up and plant your own. Ask forgiveness, not permission.
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Aug 10, 2016 00:00
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I guarantee whatever poo poo rung you think you're on mint is way easier to replace than a warm body
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Aug 10, 2016 00:01
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BattleMoose posted:Yeah its probably not the best idea I have ever had. But the idea of being able to work around where people are having fun and somewhat physical work, is just so super appealing. They either get roped into management, become co-owners when a bar they have a connect to needs a cash infusion, or drop out of the industry. A really really awful estimate on percentages for these three things would be like 3%, 1%, 96% but whatever. Maybe another half a percent get one of those hotel jobs or Irish bar jobs or Vegas casino jobs and live out their days at work -- of those only the Vegas guys are ever going to get a pension and retire. If you want to do physical work with other people bartending isn't your only choice. A lot of the time working in a bar isn't fun, too. I would expect that you have fun when you go to a bar but honestly there are an awful lot of people that don't and they're going to be your customers too. Anyway man I would really suggest bending your PhD into something closer to what you like rather than letting it wilt while you go on a bartender lark. Spending your week doing what you only half enjoy and then spending your weekend drinking and having fun in a bar is better than spending your weekend and some adjacent days doing what you only half enjoy and then your days off trying to call the waitress that quit or going to a bar that has three people in it because it's Wednesday night. Plus you get to work every New Year's. Christmas too -- boss needs someone reliable after all and he can't be there. Sorry your vacation has to get cancelled but Jeff quit without notice and there's no one for the awful midweek days right now (apart from Charmane but the guy who does the schedule thinks she's his girlfriend). raton fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Aug 11, 2016 |
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Aug 11, 2016 00:13
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Cwmagain posted:So, the hotel where I work has decided to plant some assorted herbs in our garden rather then buy them in. This includes the mint I use for my mojitos. For some reason ( management ), normal mint hasn't made the cut, and I was left making mojitos with flavoured mint. Now, I've had some good results with applemint, but despite it's aggressive growth we are running out. Morning crew using it for flavoured water isn't helping either. Management says to just use chocolate mint for mojitos, but i've made a test drink and it just tastes off. No chocolate OR mint flavour. Any changes I could make to a recipe to bring it back up to speed? ( Please say impossible, get real mint ). Maybe add more ( bleh ), Add mint syrup instead of cannes.. lol
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Aug 11, 2016 00:41
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poop dood posted:So make as many connections as possible, look hip for interviews, and don't expect my first NYC bar gig to be ideal. I can handle that. Thanks for making it sound doable. Look for hip interviews if you're a hipster. What I was actually trying to say in that bit is that the bar scene in NYC is way more image driven than wherever you're from (probably) so don't be surprised if you sit down and lay out your respectable experience and skills and they don't hire you because you don't have ink / do have ink / aren't white enough / aren't ethnic enough / obviously do hard drugs / obviously don't do hard drugs etc. There are places where they'll try to just hire the best guy that comes in the door but there are a lot of other places that don't hire that way.
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Aug 11, 2016 00:45
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So firstly thanks to everyone who has been answering my questions, I really do appreciate it. I have been seriously flip/flopping on this whole idea over the past week or so. Its become apparent that the only real reliable way to endure in this industry is to own your own bar, maybe GM too but that looks pretty lovely. So for the experienced individuals here, does owning your own bar appeal? Or too risky? Or is a lack of capital the major issue? e: Also, read the whole thread now. 
BattleMoose fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Aug 11, 2016 |
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Aug 11, 2016 03:13
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BattleMoose posted:So firstly thanks to everyone who has been answering my questions, I really do appreciate it. I have been seriously flip/flopping on this whole idea over the past week or so. No, don't own a bar, most especially if you've never worked in a bar before. I've seen people lose so much money trying that, it would make cocaine addiction look like a responsible financial decision. If you still want to try it, I advise two things based on having watched people fail miserably in the past (though I myself have no experience in the industry to speak of either): 1) When people who do have experience in the industry tell you to do, or not do, a certain thing, listen to them. 2) Make sure you have an owner, someone with skin in the game, working there at all times, or as close to it as at all possible. Not floating around having drinks with people, or trying to make friends, or just looking over the books now and again. Working and paying attention, 100% sober. A good bar with a good ownership group can make a lot of money, but it always exists on a knife's edge.
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Aug 11, 2016 04:50
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PT6A posted:1) When people who do have experience in the industry tell you to do, or not do, a certain thing, listen to them. Oh absolutely, wouldn't dream of even attempting it without at least several years of experience, and even then. I am aware of the *very high* failure rate.
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Aug 11, 2016 05:16
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BattleMoose posted:Oh absolutely, wouldn't dream of even attempting it without at least several years of experience, and even then. I am aware of the *very high* failure rate. If it helps, the very high failure rate is helped along by some of the most staggering examples of incompetence you can possibly imagine.
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Aug 11, 2016 05:21
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PT6A posted:If it helps, the very high failure rate is helped along by some of the most staggering examples of incompetence you can possibly imagine. Yeah. Add all the other reasons that a small business can fail and add on all the dumbfuckery that goes along with alcohol and owners putting "being cool" "having fun" "anything at all" above "making money." If you're willing to give up the 70-100 hours a week that a small business requires, LOVE the business, and can keep an ice-cold motherfucking eye on the bottom line, you MIGHT make it, as long as you NEVER party there.
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Aug 11, 2016 06:50
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Hahaha. Yeah. Never ever drink in your own bar *eyeroll*
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Aug 11, 2016 08:15
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:Hahaha. Yeah. Never ever drink in your own bar *eyeroll*
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Aug 11, 2016 21:45
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Everything else for sure, but if own the joint and are done cutting checks, going to the bank and have a solid person behind the stick, yeah, 3pm sounds like a good time to go ahead and have a beer and schmooze a little.
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Aug 11, 2016 21:47
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mooyashi posted:Everything else for sure, but if own the joint and are done cutting checks, going to the bank and have a solid person behind the stick, yeah, 3pm sounds like a good time to go ahead and have a beer and schmooze a little. I'd advise not doing it in your own bar. Don't poo poo where you eat. Yes, it theoretically can be done without causing problems, but 99% of the time it isn't, especially once "a beer" turns into "three or four beers." Just going by what I've seen, mind you. The successful, good bars you want to drink at around here are run by people who go to another bar to drink once their shift is done.
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Aug 11, 2016 22:10
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