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Sinteres posted:I wasn't aware that Turkey was exterminating refugees; this changes everything. Turkey is acting as a giant death trap for refugees from Syria through inaction. https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/05/10/words-praise-deadly-deeds-turkeys-treatment-refugees
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Aug 8, 2016 15:47
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CommieGIR posted:I'm blaming Google Voice, since that was my phone post. Nope. The humanitarian aspect was never replaced by the economical one. At least in Germany during 2015, when the willkommenskultur was at its peak before Cologne, Merkel and leaders of economy introduced the economic argument on top of the humanitarian one. So it was an attempt by advocats of the government's policy of "laissez faire et laissez passer" to make it more palatable. Merkel, Zetsche, Gabriel and DB spoke of Fachkräftemangel and several newspapers tried to claim that this might be a solution to a lack of certain qualified jobs in German industry and could prove to be a boon to the social security system that is under pressure from the change in demographics and populist reforms by CDU and SPD to appease the senior citizens. And because this argument is obviously wishful thinking it didn't help their cause at all. It is also an easy way to ignore the economical pull factors in migration. "Refugees" stop being refugees once they are in Greece, Italy, Spain etc. There's no war there, but people keep marching. So obviously there's more to it than "outright genocide", as was shown by the Syrian father who was responsible for having his family drown in the Mediterrenean because he expected a set of new teeth in Europe. Claiming that he was threatened by "genocide" in Turkey, where he was working as a barber is simply not true. If one wants to seriously discuss this phenomenon it doesn't help to ignore 50% of the factors, i.e. the pull factors.
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Aug 8, 2016 16:01
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Most of them are still refugees. And trying to undermine the refugee system with economic arguments is, at best, a poor strawman, at worst, an inhumane attempt to remove any value of the human lives of people fleeing outright genocide.
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Einbauschrank posted:It is also an easy way to ignore the economical pull factors in migration. "Refugees" stop being refugees once they are in Greece, Italy, Spain etc. That's not how being a refugee works. Like, at all. Einbauschrank posted:So obviously there's more to it than "outright genocide", as was shown by the Syrian father who was responsible for having his family drown in the Mediterrenean because he expected a set of new teeth in Europe. Claiming that he was threatened by "genocide" in Turkey, where he was working as a barber is simply not true. Holy poo poo you are a piece of work. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 16:08
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It's funny how a country with 25% of Greece's GDP per capita and population, a country that isn't allowed to use it's proper name in international organizations and a country without a border with Turkey managed to stem the flow of immigrants to Greece from Turkey. (Macedonia when they built the fence)
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Aug 8, 2016 16:15
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Geriatric Pirate posted:It's funny how a country with 25% of Greece's GDP per capita and population, a country that isn't allowed to use it's proper name in international organizations and a country without a border with Turkey managed to stem the flow of immigrants to Greece from Turkey. Funny how different naval borders are from the land ones, isn't it.
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Aug 8, 2016 16:18
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Einbauschrank posted:It is also an easy way to ignore the economical pull factors in migration. "Refugees" stop being refugees once they are in Greece, Italy, Spain etc. Are you saying that all of the refugees stopping in greece was somehow going to be a sustainable situation for Greece?
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Aug 8, 2016 16:28
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Andrast posted:Are you saying that all of the refugees stopping in greece was somehow going to be a sustainable situation for Greece? Greece should have tried extorting the EU for money to solve their refugee crisis like Turkey did.
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Aug 8, 2016 16:31
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YF-23 posted:Honestly? The "economic burden" vs "economic benefit" argument should just disappear. It operates under the same dehumanising narrative of reducing human value to a statistical figure that has caused so much damage and detachment between modern politics and people. This is exactly what conservatives and communists mean when they say liberals are useless hand-wringing blobs eager for the right thing to be done as long as other people do it. Any real solution requires quantifying resources to be marshaled and distributed, whether by the syndicalist people's resource board or an elected cabinet. Ultimately people require so much housing, food etc. Are your really against quantifying that? Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 16:36
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Andrast posted:Are you saying that all of the refugees stopping in greece was somehow going to be a sustainable situation for Greece? On the contrary, I think it was very short sighted to leave Greece in the lurch. Dublin is a lovely pan-European agreement that only still exists because it provides for the clause to be ignored. The only solution is a working pan-European border security - like Frontex, but one that works, and a distribution of migrants claiming to seek refuge over the whole of the EU *after* they have been registered and had their fingerprints taken. The states to which they are assigned then have the task of examining whether or not they can claim right of limited residence due to their refugee status or have to leave. But simply letting everybody in and looking how a Europe of open borders tries to control the situation ex post is bad political management. Edit: Of course you also can install central registration institutions if this fancies you better. But I don't think a failed state like Greece is the right environment to create huge centers of bureaucratic activity. /end of edit But, this also means that Greece must be able to control her land borders. Or, what seems more and more unfeasible, we need an agreement with Turkey. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 16:37
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Einbauschrank posted:On the contrary, I think it was very short sighted to leave Greece in the lurch. Dublin is a lovely pan-European agreement that only still exists because it provides for the clause to be ignored. The only solution is a working pan-European border security - like Frontex, but one that works, and a distribution of migrants claiming to seek refuge over the whole of the EU *after* they have been registered and had their fingerprints taken. The states to which they are assigned then have the task of examining whether or not they can claim right of limited residence due to their refugee status or have to leave. But simply letting everybody in and looking how a Europe of open borders tries to control the situation ex post is bad political management.
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Aug 8, 2016 16:54
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't think dividing up the refugees and then deciding whether they get to stay on a country-by-country basis would work. All that would happen is that some countries would reject all the asylum seekers coming their way, to ensure they wouldn't have to house any. I don't see any solution besides a common system to determine whether a claim is to be rejected or not, which would then be followed by distribution across the EU. (Though obviously there's some real political wrangling to be done in that case, beyond what you'd have in the country-by-country system.) You have a point. I don't expect the EU to agree on anything as long as it is of benefit for some not to agree on it. So, yeah, that's real political wrangling ahead. The interim solution as adopted by Merkel (dealing with Turkey) or the Austrian led bloc (have the Balkan route closed down) are real solutions, but of course no institutionalized ones, which would be prefereable.
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Aug 8, 2016 16:58
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I doubt Turkey is going to be a suitable partner for this much longer.
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Aug 8, 2016 17:00
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't think dividing up the refugees and then deciding whether they get to stay on a country-by-country basis would work. All that would happen is that some countries would reject all the asylum seekers coming their way, to ensure they wouldn't have to house any. That is basically what Japan does. It's not they don't get any refugees, it's that they have 99 point loving 7 percent rejection rate. I think the process is a bit more regulated in Europe though, you wouldn't see numbers quite that bad.
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Aug 8, 2016 17:05
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CommieGIR posted:Exactly. Trying to invalidate refugees by their economic value undermines the entire point of having a refugee system to begin with. Exactly. Refugees economic value should not be a part of the question whether they should be granted asylum. That however puts the question on another thing, who do you help most refugees? And the answer to that is putting massive amounts of funds into refugee camps in neighboring countries to the conflict as well as increasing the UN quota of refugees ( i.e. Those refugees as judged by UN to need most protection i.e. families. ). What we are doing now is taking resources from the refugees in the huge camps in libanon and turkey in order to take care of predominantly young men for a massively larger cost (50-100x) per refugee than what it would count in the refugee camp.
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Aug 8, 2016 17:59
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Private Speech posted:That is basically what Japan does. It's not they don't get any refugees, it's that they have 99 point loving 7 percent rejection rate.
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Aug 8, 2016 17:59
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CommieGIR posted:I doubt Turkey is going to be a suitable partner for this much longer. Eh, Merkel spent a lot of political capital on first the "wir schaffen das" and then the migration stop agreement with turkey. I can easily see the german government try to hang on to the agreement until the cows come home
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Aug 8, 2016 18:33
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double nine posted:Eh, Merkel spent a lot of political capital on first the "wir schaffen das" and then the migration stop agreement with turkey. I can easily see the german government try to hang on to the agreement until the cows come home Turkey is currently doing major damage to their geopolitical standing in the West. I think its less that Germany wants to hang on, more that Erdogan is going to slip away.
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Aug 8, 2016 18:34
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Some very fine inside the Brussels bubble humor https://twitter.com/Berlaymonster/status/762579961286955008
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Aug 8, 2016 19:50
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Private Speech posted:Funny how different naval borders are from the land ones, isn't it. Blocking the land border (which Greece could have done) instead of letting everyone flow through to Germany changed incentives for the migrants and cut flows from Turkey to Greece.
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Aug 9, 2016 09:13
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YF-23 posted:It would've helped even more to not have participated in military interventions in the middle east but oh well, Hollande needs to look strong. Yes, Hollande is to blame for the American invasion of Iraq, the Arab Spring happening, and Assad's decision to plunge his country into a civil war instead of relinquishing one iota of power. All of this was caused by Hollande's need to look strong. Riso posted:You know, a similar thing does work for Australia very nicely. They catch the smuggling boats and bring them all back. There's nothing nice about what Australia is doing. When they aren't paying people smugglers to turn back (and then the people smuggler turn right back again to get paid again), they put the refugees in rape camps. Then they pass laws that make it a crime to tell about all the rapes that are happening in the rape camps. Sinteres posted:I wasn't aware that Turkey was exterminating refugees; this changes everything. Europe doesn't an infinite welcoming capacity for refugees, but Turkey does. Good to hear. Geriatric Pirate posted:It's funny how a country with 25% of Greece's GDP per capita and population, a country that isn't allowed to use it's proper name in international organizations and a country without a border with Turkey managed to stem the flow of immigrants to Greece from Turkey.
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Aug 9, 2016 09:54
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Blocking the land border (which Greece could have done) instead of letting everyone flow through to Germany changed incentives for the migrants and cut flows from Turkey to Greece. I do find it quaint how you lot love to deliberately use the word 'migrant' to imply 'economic migrant' instead of 'refugee' since that would imply some expression of common humanity.
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Aug 9, 2016 10:07
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Cat Mattress posted:Yes, Hollande is to blame for the American invasion of Iraq, the Arab Spring happening, and Assad's decision to plunge his country into a civil war instead of relinquishing one iota of power. All of this was caused by Hollande's need to look strong. Of course he's not, but Europe, and specifically France, are being explicitly targeted for their own participation. And the French response to every single terrorist attack in France is "ok, we'll drop more bombs". I brought Hollande up not because he's singularly responsible, but because he exemplifies the kind of foreign policy that is perpetuating this situation.
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Aug 9, 2016 10:33
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Tesseraction posted:I do find it quaint how you lot love to deliberately use the word 'migrant' to imply 'economic migrant' instead of 'refugee' since that would imply some expression of common humanity. Funny how many of those genuine refugees stopped being in immediate danger when the path to Germany was blocked and it became apparent they'd have to claim asylum in Greece. I love how your lot keeps ignoring basic facts, like the fact that if many migrants stop coming when their path to Western Europe is blocked, those migrants weren't in that much danger to begin with.
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Aug 9, 2016 10:39
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Tesseraction posted:I do find it quaint how you lot love to deliberately use the word 'migrant' to imply 'economic migrant' instead of 'refugee' since that would imply some expression of common humanity. This is becoming super common on a local forum I visit. I keep saying "refugees", every single reply to me is "economic migrant". It's hilarious, like we're talking completely different things, and they don't even notice.
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Aug 9, 2016 10:56
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Funny how many of those genuine refugees stopped being in immediate danger when the path to Germany was blocked and it became apparent they'd have to claim asylum in Greece. You do not have to be in immediate danger of death to be a refugee. Truga posted:This is becoming super common on a local forum I visit. I keep saying "refugees", every single reply to me is "economic migrant". It's hilarious, like we're talking completely different things, and they don't even notice. It's propaganda pure and simple. By couching it in "TAKIN ARE JERBS" rhetoric they magically convert someone who fled a warzone into Achmed the job-stealing welfare-claiming parasite.
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Aug 9, 2016 11:18
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Just because refugees don't stop at the nearest possible place they don't stop being refugees. They are already on the move, so why not continue a bit farther? Especially when the conditions in Turkey (and greece) are pretty poo poo.
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Aug 9, 2016 11:24
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YF-23 posted:Of course he's not, but Europe, and specifically France, are being explicitly targeted for their own participation. And the French response to every single terrorist attack in France is "ok, we'll drop more bombs". I brought Hollande up not because he's singularly responsible, but because he exemplifies the kind of foreign policy that is perpetuating this situation. Foreign policy isn't the problem, domestic policy is. Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 11:26
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Andrast posted:Just because refugees don't stop at the nearest possible place they don't stop being refugees. Funny how they tend to go to the countries that have way more resources and thus are more likely to be able to afford to help them.
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Aug 9, 2016 11:27
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Funny how many of those genuine refugees stopped being in immediate danger when the path to Germany was blocked and it became apparent they'd have to claim asylum in Greece. Turkey received billions from the EU to house and feed Syrian refugees in their own territory. In addition to that, the fact that the EU let in several hundred thousand of them probably also helped alleviate the pressure. Also, this is a total misunderstanding of what a war refugee is. They are displaced people that need to be housed, fed, educated and receive basic medical treatment. Just because they are not in any immediate danger of an air strike doesn't mean that they are taken care of. The 2015 refugee wave started primarily because there was no longer reliable camp housing, food, education for children and healthcare services available in the region. Truga posted:This is becoming super common on a local forum I visit. I keep saying "refugees", every single reply to me is "economic migrant". It's hilarious, like we're talking completely different things, and they don't even notice. One of the major talking point in the far right community is that Merkel somehow invited these refugees to Germany(to exploit them economically or because of Holocaust guilt). It has nothing to do with reality, but that doesn't really matter at this point anymore since we live in a post-factual society now.
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Aug 9, 2016 11:31
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gently caress europe you deserve this (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 9, 2016 11:33
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YF-23 posted:Of course he's not, but Europe, and specifically France, are being explicitly targeted for their own participation. And the French response to every single terrorist attack in France is "ok, we'll drop more bombs". I brought Hollande up not because he's singularly responsible, but because he exemplifies the kind of foreign policy that is perpetuating this situation. Rubbish. France being a target has a lot more to do with France being within reach and having a large enough Muslim population that recruits can be found than with anything else. Why do you think there aren't as many attacks on US soil? Why were there attacks in Belgium and Germany, countries that aren't participating much in the current Middle East conflict? Why do you think most terrorist attacks are actually inside Iraq, Syria, and other nearby countries such as Turkey? It has everything to do with opportunity, ideology is waved around as a justification but it's not the real motive.
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Aug 9, 2016 11:46
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Andrast posted:Just because refugees don't stop at the nearest possible place they don't stop being refugees. Though this is technically correct, it opens up the system for abuse. The Geneva convention was installed to prevent people from being deported back into danger (a war zone not necessarily being considered to be a danger according to the convention), not to undermine border regimes and circumvent immigration laws.Also you can deport a refugee to a place where he isn't in danger. So Sweden could deport their migrants claiming to be refugees back to Denmark if that's where they entered Sweden from. Added fun fact: People from UN led refugee camps cannot be refugees according to the Geneva convention afaik. But aside from technical matters, you cannot sensibly discuss the spike in migration without looking at the economic incentives. Trying to discard them or to ignore the interests of the prospective host states (mainly their society or the backlashes on the political system) is the best way to have the discussion degenerate into a brainless feel good discussion. Egoistical motives of migrants ("But I wanna be in Germamy") are not the only criterium to be considered when looking at a world wide phenomenon that seems to be increasing in scope.
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Aug 9, 2016 11:51
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Einbauschrank posted:Though this is technically correct, it opens up the system for abuse. The Geneva convention was installed to prevent people from being deported back into danger (a war zone not necessarily being considered to be a danger according to the convention), not to undermine border regimes and circumvent immigration laws.Also you can deport a refugee to a place where he isn't in danger. So Sweden could deport their migrants claiming to be refugees back to Denmark if that's where they entered Sweden from. Added fun fact: People from UN led refugee camps cannot be refugees according to the Geneva convention afaik. It's a result of most of Europe having an open borders agreement but no common asylum policy. That's just asking for trouble. quote:Trying to discard them or to ignore the interests of the prospective host states (mainly their society or the backlashes on the political system) is the best way to have the discussion degenerate into a brainless feel good discussion. Egoistical motives of migrants ("But I wanna be in Germamy") are not the only criterium to be considered when looking at a world wide phenomenon that seems to be increasing in scope. It's also a bad idea to give into every whimsical mood that small electoral minorities have from time to time. The AfD currently has ~10% of the voting population, not exactly a majority or even plurality.
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Aug 9, 2016 12:37
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waitwhatno posted:It's a result of most of Europe having a <shared something> agreement but no common <shared something oversight> policy. That's just asking for trouble. eu.txt
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Aug 9, 2016 12:56
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Kurtofan posted:Foreign policy isn't the problem, domestic policy is. Point taken about domestic policy, I'm not going to try to undersell its importance, but you cannot honestly say that French foreign policy doesn't belong to the root of the problem. Foreign interventions in the middle east have produced the #1 terrorist training site, and however way you cut it France has worked really hard to be part of that.
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Aug 9, 2016 13:03
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Hey man, when you got an aircraft carrier what else you gonna do with it?
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Aug 9, 2016 13:14
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YF-23 posted:Point taken about domestic policy, I'm not going to try to undersell its importance, but you cannot honestly say that French foreign policy doesn't belong to the root of the problem. Foreign interventions in the middle east have produced the #1 terrorist training site, and however way you cut it France has worked really hard to be part of that. How do you explain attacks in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Tunisia...? Our foreign policy isn't at the root of the problem, the foreign policies of other countries last decade is. Remember we didn't got to Iraq in 2003. We always were going to be involved, against our will, just like other countries in the region or with heavy Muslim populations suffered consequences from the Iraq War. Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 13:36
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YF-23 posted:Point taken about domestic policy, I'm not going to try to undersell its importance, but you cannot honestly say that French foreign policy doesn't belong to the root of the problem. Foreign interventions in the middle east have produced the #1 terrorist training site, and however way you cut it France has worked really hard to be part of that. No, Britain and Spain and Poland worked very hard to be part of Bush Jr.'s Crusade, while France worked very hard to prevent it. Maybe try remembering history accurately? That this poo poo would happen -- that Iraq would turn into a terrorist hive -- was very high in the arguments used by France to tell the Americans they were being stupid fuckup dumbasses. The result was a bunch of Axis of Weasels, Freedom Fries, and Surrendering Monkeys propaganda; and now that it has been demonstrated that the French were 100% right and accurate about Bush's war in Iraq, you're loving blaming them for it? gently caress off you idiot. The current French participation in combat operations in Iraq is at the behest of the Iraqi government; just like the operation in Mali was at the behest of the Malian government. It's only the operations in Syria that are done outside of a clear mandate from the host country, and they only got there very late after the US had been doing it for a long while and after Daesh had demonstrated that it was absolutely necessary to strike them in Syria as well if you wanted to get rid of them in Iraq, since they cross the border easily. And the intervention in Syria has allowed the Syrian Democratic Forces to liberate nearly all of the northern part of the country from the iron rule of the terrorists. I am not going to say it's a bad thing and we should have allowed terrorists with a medieval perception of justice and society to take over two entire countries. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 13:45
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Tesseraction posted:I do find it quaint how you lot love to deliberately use the word 'migrant' to imply 'economic migrant' instead of 'refugee' since that would imply some expression of common humanity. "Welfare queen" word filter incoming.
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Aug 9, 2016 14:37
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YF-23 posted:Point taken about domestic policy, I'm not going to try to undersell its importance, but you cannot honestly say that French foreign policy doesn't belong to the root of the problem. Foreign interventions in the middle east have produced the #1 terrorist training site, and however way you cut it France has worked really hard to be part of that. No they haven't
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