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Space Fish posted:No lie: that scene had me think, "oh hey, a situation that actually qualifies for using that word people use to insult others." Well, he does refuse the offer
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Aug 9, 2016 00:57
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Gonzo McFee posted:I think it's more because all the characters are really lazy stereotypes. I mean was El Diablo ever referred to by any of the other characters without someone brining up his ethnicity? And Killer Croc speaks in Ebonics and wants to watch BET. There's no real joke there unless you consider black people existing funny. I mean if Killer Croc was revelled to be a suburban white boy with a skin condition which he uses to pretend he's black then there might be a joke in there somewhere with tension between Deadshot and him but there wasn't and there ain't. The joke is that he lives in a world where brutalization and dehumanization starts way before prison.
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Aug 9, 2016 01:00
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How does the way other people talk to El Diablo show he's a racist stereotype or whatever? It's Deadshot/Croc/Boomer's choice not his. You can fight that poo poo every day of your life or you can just go on with living. I doubt El Diablo is thinking "wow, he understands my culture, what a guy" when Deadshot calls him esse, but he doesn't feel like making a thing about it either. Killer Croc liking BET isn't a joke. Him demanding cable in his cell is only funny because it's moderately surprising. Because he's a movie monster. It'd be like if you caught Freddie Krueger between slayings watching a Ginger Rodgers movie or something. e: also can you think of any reason the guy who doesn't even look human anymore would have to repeatedly and forcefully assert his blackness? This is what I really object to, the idea that the characters are "lazy stereotypes" with emphasis on the "lazy." Let's dispel this myth that David Ayer doesn't know what he's doing; he knows exactly what he's doing. My favorite touch is Katana's very anime-inspired quasi-fascist-biker-chick look, which to me (as a huge weeb anyway) looks like something a Japanese superhero might very well wear. Wearing the flag and the Imperial mon is as far from an apolitical thing as you can get in Japanese culture and the weird pairing of far right politics and idealized femininity (that giant red bow on her back) is v. much an actual contemporary thing going on in that society. Likewise the quasi-religious elements on Deadshot's costume, Croc's hoodie; none of this was the product of absence of thought or accident. Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 01:01
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm surprised I've never seen someone point that out before. They went straight from zero to nuke, not even trying conventional weapons. Nuke is actually the only possibly useful conventional response against a guy who is largely impervious to conventional weapons opening a wormhole across space-time in NYC. So, yet another example of MCU writing for all its foibles being miles ahead of Suicide Squad's disordered script.
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Aug 9, 2016 01:10
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Gonzo McFee posted:And Killer Croc speaks in Ebonics Speaking of racism. OneThousandMonkeys posted:Nuke is actually the only possibly useful conventional response against a guy who is largely impervious to conventional weapons opening a wormhole across space-time in NYC. So, yet another example of MCU writing for all its foibles being miles ahead of Suicide Squad's disordered script. Are we ever shown him being immune to conventional weapons? He surrendered when a helicopter aimed a machine gun at him.
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Aug 9, 2016 01:37
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Nuke is actually the only possibly useful conventional response against a guy who is largely impervious to conventional weapons opening a wormhole across space-time in NYC. Yeah, I remember when Popular Mechanics ran an article on this.
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Aug 9, 2016 01:40
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Harime Nui posted:This is what I really object to, the idea that the characters are "lazy stereotypes" with emphasis on the "lazy." Let's dispel this myth that David Ayer doesn't know what he's doing; he knows exactly what he's doing. My favorite touch is Katana's very anime-inspired quasi-fascist-biker-chick look, which to me (as a huge weeb anyway) looks like something a Japanese superhero might very well wear. Wearing the flag and the Imperial mon is as far from an apolitical thing as you can get in Japanese culture and the weird pairing of far right politics and idealized femininity (that giant red bow on her back) is v. much an actual contemporary thing going on in that society. Likewise the quasi-religious elements on Deadshot's costume, Croc's hoodie; none of this was the product of absence of thought or accident. What role or purpose does Katana serve in this film?
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Aug 9, 2016 01:51
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That's like asking "why make the movie about this thing and not that thing?" I dunno. e: Like, I'll tell you my theory b/c I <3 Katana and she's one of my favorite characters and to my knowledge her affiliation is mainly The Outsiders, never been the Suicide Squad: when they were sitting around in the writer's room on this one they said "we need a character with some magic poo poo we can use to beat The Sorceress." "Huhh... they'll never give us Zatanna... not John Constantine... nobody likes Dr. Fate... hey, what about Katana? Would a magic sword work?" "Ah yeah a magic sword, perfect, and people have sorta heard of her maybe?" "She was in that Batman cartoon a few years back." "TYPE IT UP, WE'RE GOING TO LUNCH." Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 01:54
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Space Fish posted:e: That scene also made me wonder how much WB offered Common to cause him to sell out so hard. Doesn't he normally rail against the image of gangstas trading women in strip clubs in favor of socially conscious messages? He probably likes working with Ayer. He was in the best scene in Street Kings.
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Aug 9, 2016 01:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The fact that, when it comes down to it, cash is the closest thing to his heart is the entire joke. I can't speak for anybody else but personally I hate tons of expository dialogue. The movie spends a great deal of time pointing out Boomerang has a unicorn fetish, they make a great point of showing him drop the unicorn then retrieve it and place it lovingly inside his jacket, then shortly after get a knife to his heart that doesn't kill him because something gets in the way. He reaches inside and pulls out... a wad of cash. The unicorn is never seen or referenced again in the film that I recall. My complaint is that it only ever seems to be there in the first place in a misguided attempt at forced wackiness because the movie never really succeeded at settling on exactly what tone it was going for between dark'n'gritty or lighthearted wacky antics. It tries to be too many things at once, throws in too many little "quirky" touches in favor of actual character building or plot development, and ends up feeling like a movie that couldn't decide if it wanted to be Deadpool, Superman v Batman, Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy or The Dirty Dozen so tried to be all of them at once. In regards to Diablo, my complaint with him is that his introductory scene is painfully badly done and his,"I ain't gonna lose another family!" isn't earned at all by anything we've seen in the movie that would indicate he feels so close to the other members of the squad that he'd consider them closer than blood. The bar scene almost provides that but it is too little too late, and from what we've seen in the trailer that scene was heavily cut for the final release anyway. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 03:31
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computer parts posted:Speaking of racism. We are getting wires crossed and not talking about the same person.
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Aug 9, 2016 04:42
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:We are getting wires crossed and not talking about the same person. Isn't it obviously Loki you both are talking about? It's actually really hilarious in retrospect with all the retconning they did to whittle the number of dead in NY down to 72 or whatever it ended up being. So an invading alien army emerged above NY and manages to kill less than a hundred people after an hour or so and the illuminati or whatever are like "OH gently caress DROP A NUKE". Yeah, worst plan ever. Maybe give it a couple days until the number of casualties hits a whopping 4 digits. Or like send in a conventional military response; the NYPD seem to be doing alright along with Barton and his loving arrows.
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Aug 9, 2016 05:14
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Guy A. Person posted:Isn't it obviously Loki you both are talking about? One of these days Marvel or DC will realize XCOM's a thing. (My favorite scene in MoS was the military being crushed to pieces by Faora and Namek).
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Aug 9, 2016 05:17
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It's just so weird in the Marvel movies, I think only the heroes have dealt with actual military attacks and the like. The villains never really do.
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Aug 9, 2016 05:34
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Burkion posted:It's just so weird in the Marvel movies, I think only the heroes have dealt with actual military attacks and the like. Well, there's Cap 1. Other than that though, yeah. There's actually a recurring theme of the villains being the traditional mainstays of power (Iron Man, Cap 2, Thor with Loki being royalty, etc). What sucks is that they never follow up on it.
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Aug 9, 2016 05:41
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Harime Nui posted:The pink unicorn being spared was another reshoot decision by WB to keep the film from being too dark. Deadpool: Inspiring DC films everywhere.
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Aug 9, 2016 06:05
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Gonzo McFee posted:I think it's more because all the characters are really lazy stereotypes. I mean was El Diablo ever referred to by any of the other characters without someone brining up his ethnicity? that was other characters trying to get a rise out of him rather than about El Diablo himself, though. i thought he was a sick character personally. in a film that's all about these larger than life personalities who act before they think, he's this introspective quiet guy reflecting on his past. he was a fully realised character who had a whole arc over the course of the movie about owning his past actions and accepting himself. he finally came to terms with who he was and saved everyone by becoming a badass fire demon thing, he was cool as gently caress.
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Aug 9, 2016 09:40
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Lovechop posted:that was other characters trying to get a rise out of him rather than about El Diablo himself, though. i thought he was a sick character personally. in a film that's all about these larger than life personalities who act before they think, he's this introspective quiet guy reflecting on his past. he was a fully realised character who had a whole arc over the course of the movie about owning his past actions and accepting himself. he finally came to terms with who he was and saved everyone by becoming a badass fire demon thing, he was cool as gently caress. Diablo was pretty awesome. He also arguably had the biggest climb to make as a character, considering one of the first times we saw him he had a cartoon crown over his head.
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Aug 9, 2016 10:05
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I didn't like El Diablo. His backstory is fine though you already had the idea on what happened with his intro and the bar scene later felt like it just repeated itself. It was super weird having him float around fight scenes without anything really trying to touch him. The whole "I don't want to hurt anybody" reason feels dumb when everybody is being attacked by avocado people/monsters.
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Aug 9, 2016 10:58
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El Diablo going all Aztec Fire God and melting a gaping hole in the "brother" was almost worth everything else bad about the character until he just... gives up and says "blow the bomb!" I mean, he was loving poo poo up and then all of a sudden stops? What? Oh, right, can't have everyone realize there was someone on the team that could single-handedly take out the threat without any of the other shenanigans up until that point.
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Aug 9, 2016 12:20
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Would have rendered the whole bomb underneath the area thing pointless and we wouldn't have Croc at the end.
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Aug 9, 2016 12:23
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Also I think he wanted to die
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Aug 9, 2016 12:29
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Heroic sacrifice and all that. We know who the true hero was though. RIP Slipknot. You were there to remind us that they do indeed have bombs in their heads.
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Aug 9, 2016 12:35
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Golden Goat posted:Heroic sacrifice and all that. His power was basically "best chance at escaping with his grappling hooks" so it does hilariously look like that's why he was put on the team
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Aug 9, 2016 13:21
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Guy A. Person posted:His power was basically "best chance at escaping with his grappling hooks" so it does hilariously look like that's why he was put on the team Would have liked if he got an intro and title card saying exactly that. Complete with clips of him escaping situations.
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Aug 9, 2016 13:36
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Guy A. Person posted:His power was basically "best chance at escaping with his grappling hooks" so it does hilariously look like that's why he was put on the team It kind of undercuts the gimmick of the team when the only people who die are No Intro Man and Mr. Heroic Sacrifice, though. It would have been funny and contributed to the black-comedy undertones they obviously wanted if like Golden Goat said, he had an intro emphasizing his ability to crack in and out of situations.
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Aug 9, 2016 13:45
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Neurolimal posted:It kind of undercuts the gimmick of the team when the only people who die are No Intro Man and Mr. Heroic Sacrifice, though. They should have kept closer to The Dirty Dozen and have almost everyone die, and those who survive are shot up to hell and barely escape with their lives. Heck, one guy doesn't even survive the para jump to get to the mission and dies offscreen when he lands in an apple tree and breaks his neck and it just gets worse from there. And when the only surviving convict gets back to base and gets all patches up his superiors go "That was the bravest, most courageous thing we've ever seen. Well, have fun on the front LOL" Suicide Squad has a happy ending instead.
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Aug 9, 2016 14:08
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Yeah I kinda wanted a lot of the squad to get killed, sorta like the animated film they did.
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Aug 9, 2016 14:13
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Suicide Squad is Painless really made me feel like a lot was left on the cutting room floor and/or shoehorned in with last-minute reshoots. I think somewhere in this mess is a decent, cheesy, balls-out action film, but they never quite commit. We don't need the henchmen / avocado people, we don't need 2 (two!) scenes of Viola Davis either eating or in a meeting, talking about the Squad. Here's my proposed edits, tell me this wouldn't make a better movie. 1. Open on Harley's story, expand on it, up to and including the Batman chase/capture - go down the line with every character. Once they're all captured, enter Viola Davis into the briefing room for the Enchantress bit (could be cut). This makes the opening of the movie nothing but solid character building. Also : showing how each of the Squad got caught either by Batman or some other hero, sets up nicely that this universe is populated with diverse range of heroes and villains. 2. Give us less bootcamp at the base, cut a lot of that. Sure, give Harley the cell phone, keep the Escape From NY bomb-in-the-neck deal, but trim that down majorly. 3. Skip a majority of the weird henchmen of Enchantress. One fight scene, then straight to the bar. 4. Bar scene needs to be a touch longer, really give us those callbacks to the opening, let each character's motivations and backstory come back via dialogue (no flashbacks pls). 5. Make the Enchantress visions last a little longer, give us the impression that they really DO desire to be 'normal' and that what Harley said was kinda lying to herself. It makes Diablo's "THAT AIN'T REAL" make more sense and have a bigger impact. 6. Skip some of the happy ending. Go from "wow Enchantress is gone" to "now what?" and cut to black, roll credits. 7. Cool it with the music cues. I swear half the budget of the movie went to Will Smith and the other half to pay for music rights. An original score, even something written for the film by, say, Trent Reznor, would elevate the material. anyways, that's my 2c
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Aug 9, 2016 15:02
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darth_pizza posted:7. Cool it with the music cues. This was one of my biggest complaints. It wasn't even the general use of pop music, but the fact that you had 6 intros rapid fire each with a new song playing over it, and it got redundant. Also did anyone else notice weird sound mixing at points, where the dialogue was highly dulled and drowned out by the music? There were at least 3 times it happened at my showing but I wasn't sure if it was the theater itself. The two specifically I remember: - The end of the Waller in restaurant sequence was the first and longest one, it was after all the intros but I couldn't remember a more specific landmark. - Right before Harley falls off the Joker's hijacked helicopter
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Aug 9, 2016 15:09
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Yeah the intro music hopping from one track to another was annoying to me. I don't think this film can be salvaged with either the original cut or the changes darth_pizza had.
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Aug 9, 2016 15:13
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I'm not a DC Superfan but Jared Leto as Joker is immensely watchable to me - for many of the reasons people don't seem to like him. I'd watch a solo movie. RLM saying he looks like Manson in the Tainted Love video (gangsta goth) is on point. Hilarious. E: basically I just want the dcu to commit to this version of the Joker and have him show up again. Firstborn fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 16:34
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Guy A. Person posted:Also did anyone else notice weird sound mixing at points, where the dialogue was highly dulled and drowned out by the music? There were at least 3 times it happened at my showing but I wasn't sure if it was the theater itself. The two specifically I remember: Also I remember one when everyone is at the blacksite, Harley's dialogue was drowned out. I don't remember exactly which part though. In looking at other reviews, I saw someone suggest that maybe the music was added very late in the process to try to make the movie more fun. It would explain the sort of thoughtless, first-level thinking it displays and the way that it runs roughshod over the script.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:36
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It was 100% added long after the original cut of the movie The first PR for this film was not an up beat semi comedy with a ton of pop music, it was a somber and dark thing PLEASE CONTRAST: 1st trailer from 2015; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLLQK9la6Go Most recent trailers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmRih_VtVAs; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fep4KiwyQuk
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Aug 9, 2016 16:53
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All of those suggestions are boss, and make me wonder why Ayer didn't factor in a couple days of his six-week script deadline to let a trusted friend / supernerd writing professor make some suggestions in the margins about character development and effective callbacks. They seem like simple enough fixes.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:55
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I haven't seen the movie but most of what I saw of Joker in the trailers (probably half his screen time) I really liked. Leto seems to sell it really well and has a swagger and a presence that I liked.
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Aug 9, 2016 17:03
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Space Fish posted:All of those suggestions are boss, and make me wonder why Ayer didn't factor in a couple days of his six-week script deadline to let a trusted friend / supernerd writing professor make some suggestions in the margins about character development and effective callbacks. They seem like simple enough fixes. If the list of cut scenes listed before is accurate, a lot of small developmental scenes were cut that would have fleshed them out a little more. Between SS and all the worldbuilding stuff in BVS/Ultimate Edition, It seems like DC says to their directors "do whatever you want! Honest!" And then harshly reacting to the finished project, whereas Marvel seems to make their meddling clear to the directors up-front. The bright side to this approach is we get some interesting messes, while the dark side is we get some interesting messes
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Aug 9, 2016 17:17
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I'm tempted to make a re-write and re-structure of the whole plot to Suicide Squad, because it really could've been a pretty decent movie if they changed up some scenes and developed the characters better. Instead of just showing the bad guys already in prison and the case files at the start of the movie, do like a long intro sequence where you show the individual characters doing their bad guy stuff before getting captured by batman and the other DC heroes. Then introduce Waller as she brings up the case files (but no flashbacks this time), then have the boardroom with the Enchantress intro (I gave a bit more detail on how she should've been presented in GBS), THEN cut to the rest of the cast now in prison and get them suited up for their mission. That's what I've got so far, but personally it would've made a little more sense.
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Aug 9, 2016 17:21
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Junior Jr. posted:Instead of just showing the bad guys already in prison and the case files at the start of the movie, do like a long intro sequence where you show the individual characters doing their bad guy stuff before getting captured by batman and the other DC heroes. Then introduce Waller as she brings up the case files (but no flashbacks this time), then have the boardroom with the Enchantress intro (I gave a bit more detail on how she should've been presented in GBS), THEN cut to the rest of the cast now in prison and get them suited up for their mission. I actually really like the technique used in The Dirty Dozen where there's absolutely no flashback scenes for any of the convicts and they established their characters organically through their interactions with their captors/leaders and each other during some training programs before the big mission. The bar scene in Suicide Squad was a brief glimpse of what could have been. There's a whoooooooole bunch of "assembling a ragtag crew for a mission" movies which establish their characters and setting so much better than Suicide Squad.
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Aug 9, 2016 17:40
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The character stuff is actually pretty solid in the film. Even loving Katana is really clearly defined with an arc, and she's basically just in two scenes where she serves as a counterpoint to Boomerang. ("No honor among thieves" vs. ridiculous hyper-honorability that conceals how she is herself a criminal.) It gives the lie to this "you need 6 films of backstory before you can make an ensemble film" nonsense. The actual problem is this redundancy where characters get multiple introductions spelling out things that are already obvious in their interactions.
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Aug 9, 2016 17:45
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