Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

MrMojok posted:

OK tankophiles, I know of no better place to ask this.

My Dad just texted me raving about "Fury", a movie I have been wanting to watch. He told me a bit about the plot, and when he got to the point about "lone tank holding off 300 Wehrmacht troops" I said something like "RIP, boys"

I am no armor-head, but it has always been my understanding that a single tank without supporting infantry vs enemy infantry is pretty much hosed. Then Dad says "Yeah Hollywood, but something like this did really happen" and quotes the wiki article about the film, which claims that the film was inspired by a story in "Death Traps", a book which I haven't read, but have heard mentioned in these milhist threads several times. Wiki says it was a disabled(!?) tank that had a bunch of German troops walk up on it without spotting it at night, and the next morning the tank was still there and alive with lots of dead Germans around it.

Can anyone tell me about this? Cursory googling leads me to believe the story is possibly apocryphal, but I don't know.

I'm going to watch the film regardless based on his recommendation, but I find it difficult to believe a single tank with no supporting infantry of its own could hold its own against large numbers of infantry then, now, or ever. They cannot even see well enough out of the tank, to defend themselves. Am I correct, naive, or maybe just ignorant?

Also, what did you folks think of the film overall, if anyone saw it?

I haven't seen Fury yet, outside of clips, but I've been told everyone in it is meant to be hitlerjugend-tier SS who're big on fanaticism and low on training. It'd explain the tiger fight (except for the whole "we have to shoot it from behind!" thing).

# ? Aug 9, 2016 15:45

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# ? May 10, 2024 04:57

Ensign Expendable: Nov 11, 2008; Lager beer is proof that god loves us; Pillbug

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

A lot of Fury was teens trying to write the most hosed up and badass poo poo you can think of. Like that one lieutenant shooting himself while on fire. That and some other stuff came off as so ridiculous as to be laughable.

That's like the least rad thing you can do while in a tank and on fire: http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2016/05/train-rammer.html

But yeah, RE: immobilized tank against infantry: once they're swarming all over your tank, you're screwed. The proper way to do it is dismount crewmen with a tank machinegun and SMG and have them shoot from nearby, spotting for the tank if necessary.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 15:55

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

spectralent posted:

I haven't seen Fury yet, outside of clips, but I've been told everyone in it is meant to be hitlerjugend-tier SS who're big on fanaticism and low on training. It'd explain the tiger fight (except for the whole "we have to shoot it from behind!" thing).

It's more like the SS troops in Fury aren't supposed to represent real people. Neither is the Tiger supposed to represent a real tank.

Also, even if you need to sperg about Fury, the tank is supposed to be a Tiger II.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 15:56

Handsome Ralph: Sep 3, 2004; Oh boy, posting!
That's where I'm a Viking!

Fury isn't a bad movie so long as you're not constantly rivet counting while watching it. Also the whole ending originally supposedly having Hitler Youth assault the tank would have made more (but not total) sense. Also I had just finished reading Ian Kershaw's The End right before I saw it, and they did a pretty good job showing how fanatical the Nazi's were at the very end.

Anyways, I'm reading Ian Toll's Six Frigates, it's not bad but it's not great either. Are his other books any better (Pacific Crucible)?

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:09

Saint Celestine: Dec 17, 2008; Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.
- Saint Sabbat, Lessons; Grimey Drawer

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

It's more like the SS troops in Fury aren't supposed to represent real people. Neither is the Tiger supposed to represent a real tank.

Also, even if you need to sperg about Fury, the tank is supposed to be a Tiger II.

Bovington has a working Tiger 2 right? I wonder why they weren't able to use it for the movie.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:14

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

bewbies posted:

I think Fury is the first movie I've seen that actually got the way bullets sound and tracers look right. I always appreciated that.

Why is it that war movies always feature actors that are way, way, way too drat old to be in the army? Hey, I'm 40 year old lieutenant clint eastwood and I'm taking orders from 42 year old tom hanks who must be the oldest infantry captain in the ETO, except then he meets 51 year old airborne captain ted danson and everybody is surprised until 46 year old lieutenant brad pitt walks up only to be outdone by 51 year old staff sergeant brad pitt

In Call of Duty: World at War, you honestly think that Roebuck and Sullivan are these old guys in their 40s, maybe late 30s. Nope, the dialogue says they're supposed to be in their 20s. Even the old salt with a thick mustache and raspy voice.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:15

ArchangeI: Jul 15, 2010

bewbies posted:

I think Fury is the first movie I've seen that actually got the way bullets sound and tracers look right. I always appreciated that.

Why is it that war movies always feature actors that are way, way, way too drat old to be in the army? Hey, I'm 40 year old lieutenant clint eastwood and I'm taking orders from 42 year old tom hanks who must be the oldest infantry captain in the ETO, except then he meets 51 year old airborne captain ted danson and everybody is surprised until 46 year old lieutenant brad pitt walks up only to be outdone by 51 year old staff sergeant brad pitt

Wasn't that actually a plot point in Thin Red Line, where one of the officers who was in the pre-war army where you could be a LT at 40, and was now taking orders from someone who was in his early 30ies?

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:19

Yvonmukluk: Oct 10, 2012; Everything is Sinister

Saint Celestine posted:

Bovington has a working Tiger 2 right? I wonder why they weren't able to use it for the movie.

No, they actually took the working engine from their Tiger II to get 131 working.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:21

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

bewbies posted:

Why is it that war movies always feature actors that are way, way, way too drat old to be in the army? Hey, I'm 40 year old lieutenant clint eastwood and I'm taking orders from 42 year old tom hanks who must be the oldest infantry captain in the ETO, except then he meets 51 year old airborne captain ted danson and everybody is surprised until 46 year old lieutenant brad pitt walks up only to be outdone by 51 year old staff sergeant brad pitt

If you're dealing with Serious and Weighty Issues like War and Death and The Meaning of It All, a risk-averse producer is going to want to cast proven veterans in the lead roles, even if his lead roles are supposed to be clueless teenage subalterns. It's very rare that things all fall into place like, say, Daniel Radcliffe is a box office star and shows he's a good enough actor to play Kipling's son in My Boy Jack while he's the right age to do it.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:23

lenoon: Jan 7, 2010

Trin Tragula posted:

Daniel Radcliffe is a box office star and shows he's a good enough actor to play Kipling's son in My Boy Jack while he's the right age to do it.

My son was killed while laughing at some jest.
I would I knew What it was,
and it might serve me in a time when jests are few.

:smith:

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:25

Dick Trauma: Nov 30, 2007; God damn it, you've got to be kind.

Trin Tragula posted:

Guys I don't know if you noticed this but July 1916 was a loving terrible month for a shitload of people

100 Years Ago

31 July:...and then the month ends on the most appropriate send-off I can think of, a three-exploding-horse salute.

Remind me to always turn down the position of "horse holder." :gonk:

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:27

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

lenoon posted:

My son was killed while laughing at some jest.
I would I knew What it was,
and it might serve me in a time when jests are few.

I'll have to ask my grandmother about it again, but I remember her telling me about a relative of hers, might have been a great-uncle or an uncle (or maybe I'm misremembering it and it was not a relative but a neighbor or something), who was shot by a German sniper while celebrating reunion with the brother he hadn't seen since the Nazi invasion.

Death ain't picky about when it strikes.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:31

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Endman posted:

It's Warhammer 40k in World War Two, and if you take it as such, it isn't too bad.

I don't think it was campy enough for that, and wanted to be taken too seriously about the horrors of war.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:33

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

A White Guy posted:

. Hell, the conversion of AA guns into ersatz AT guns was because the Germans had to come up with some answer to a massive behemoth with a gun that can destroy any 1941-era German tank.

AAA was used in AT roles long before Barbarossa. Going back at least to the Spanish civil war.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:34

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Saint Celestine posted:

Bovington has a working Tiger 2 right? I wonder why they weren't able to use it for the movie.

They have a working Tiger 1, and that's what was used in the film, but their Tiger 2 doesn't move itself.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:37

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

It's more like the SS troops in Fury aren't supposed to represent real people. Neither is the Tiger supposed to represent a real tank.

Also, even if you need to sperg about Fury, the tank is supposed to be a Tiger II.

That would explain why it couldn't be shot from the front but a 76mm sherman would go clean through KT side armour too.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 16:58

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

spectralent posted:

That would explain why it couldn't be shot from the front but a 76mm sherman would go clean through KT side armour too.

In that scene, they don't actually get a clean shot on its side.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 17:22

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

In that scene, they don't actually get a clean shot on its side.

That scene is about creating drama for a work of fiction, not accurately portraying the realities of ww2 tank warfare and the potential for penetrating armor with a Sherman's gun. The "Gita shoot it in the rear end" thing has been a Hollywood trope for the better part of half a century. gently caress it was a major plot point in Kelly's loving Heroes.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 17:41

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Which tank is lovely enough that a large man with a titanium spear with say a tungsten or depleted uranium point could defeat it

# ? Aug 9, 2016 17:45

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Grand Fromage posted:

Which tank is lovely enough that a large man with a titanium spear with say a tungsten or depleted uranium point could defeat it

My candidate, assuming tankettes count.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 17:50

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Grand Fromage posted:

Which tank is lovely enough that a large man with a titanium spear with say a tungsten or depleted uranium point could defeat it

Well, if you take advantage of uranium being pyrophoric you might be able to set a Sheridan on fire. Maybe, I'm probably wrong.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 17:50

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

wdarkk posted:

My candidate, assuming tankettes count.

I don't think I've ever seen an Imperial Japanese tank that didn't look super dumb and like it'd explode if you threw a rock at it.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 17:53

bewbies: Sep 23, 2003; Fun Shoe

I've also never really understood why people think they want realistic war movies. If a war movie was realistic it would be really really really really boring for the first two and half hours and then the last 15 minutes would be really loud and confusing

# ? Aug 9, 2016 17:55

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

bewbies posted:

I've also never really understood why people think they want realistic war movies. If a war movie was realistic it would be really really really really boring for the first two and half hours and then the last 15 minutes would be really loud and confusing

Honestly I want one so that I can point my mind's eye to it when thinking about combat. A curated collection of liveleak videos would probably go a long way but some shots you just can't get in a real fight.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:01

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

bewbies posted:

I've also never really understood why people think they want realistic war movies. If a war movie was realistic it would be really really really really boring for the first two and half hours and then the last 15 minutes would be really loud and confusing

Yeah. Even if it's cool to occasionally have a particular system or whatever work in a realistic way, you're going to want it to be otherwise pretty bonkers compared to real life. Or just have it as a thriller that happens to have a single realistic battle scene or gun fight.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:03

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Cyrano4747 posted:

That scene is about creating drama for a work of fiction, not accurately portraying the realities of ww2 tank warfare and the potential for penetrating armor with a Sherman's gun. The "Gita shoot it in the rear end" thing has been a Hollywood trope for the better part of half a century. gently caress it was a major plot point in Kelly's loving Heroes.

Kelly's Heroes is one of the realest war movies ever made.

xthetenth posted:

Honestly I want one so that I can point my mind's eye to it when thinking about combat. A curated collection of liveleak videos would probably go a long way but some shots you just can't get in a real fight.

I think there's a real argument for a screwball comedy about rear echelon insanity, but i don't think that's Hollywood fare.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:06

lenoon: Jan 7, 2010

War movies seem to achieve good levels of accuracy in segments. Like the tense waiting followed by insane carnage of the beginning of saving private Ryan or the hour and a half of cock jokes in Hitler my part in his downfall, or when the barbed wire comes alive in deathwatch.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:06

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

xthetenth posted:

Honestly I want one so that I can point my mind's eye to it when thinking about combat. A curated collection of liveleak videos would probably go a long way but some shots you just can't get in a real fight.

take your glasses off, you'll see exactly what Gustavus Adolphus saw in combat

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:06

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

lenoon posted:

War movies seem to achieve good levels of accuracy in segments. Like the tense waiting followed by insane carnage of the beginning of saving private Ryan or the hour and a half of cock jokes in Hitler my part in his downfall, or when the barbed wire comes alive in deathwatch.

War movies can accurately capture feelings. But when you try to get all sperglord accurate, you lose sight of the actual goal.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:09

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

HEY GAL posted:

that dude owned

Great dresser, could lead hundreds of horsemen in some fantastic charges. Don't give him a Kingdom though or leave him in charge of a shattered army. Neither ended well.

bewbies posted:

I've also never really understood why people think they want realistic war movies. If a war movie was realistic it would be really really really really boring for the first two and half hours and then the last 15 minutes would be really loud and confusing

Realistic Napoleonic Wars movie, main character is awkwardly to the right in the third line of a four man column. You spent most of it looking at the back of or craning to see over the shako of the guy in front barely seeing the enemy through the smoke before being shot to death.

Epilogue, some reinactor does a silly dance in your uniform. Fin.

SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 9, 2016

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:11

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

bewbies posted:

I've also never really understood why people think they want realistic war movies. If a war movie was realistic it would be really really really really boring for the first two and half hours and then the last 15 minutes would be really loud and confusing

I just hate watching stuff and being ripped out the moment when I think "wait that poo poo doesn't make any sense".

Comedy response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePv7ZdWVjY4

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:13

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

I think there's a real argument for a screwball comedy about rear echelon insanity, but i don't think that's Hollywood fare.

This is like 90% of Generation Kill

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:14

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

HEY GAL posted:

take your glasses off, you'll see exactly what Gustavus Adolphus saw in combat

Sorry, got my eyes fixed. Actually really good vision now.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:16

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Grand Fromage posted:

I don't think I've ever seen an Imperial Japanese tank that didn't look super dumb and like it'd explode if you threw a rock at it.

Now I'm wondering exactly how thick knightly plate got. Did people ever go into battle wearing 6mm thickness or more of metal?

EDIT: Checked Quora and the answer seems to be no.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:20

Mr Enderby: Mar 28, 2015

House Louse posted:

I remember reading that the trench latrines made very good targets because they attracted flies. Whenever someone went in the flies would fly away briefly, so if you had a sniper watching it he knew there was someone to shoot at. Apparently some snipers killed as many as ten men a day just watching the latrines, although you'd reason that they could just start building latrines out of line of sight. Is this right or just a story?

lenoon posted:

My son was killed while laughing at some jest.
I would I knew What it was,
and it might serve me in a time when jests are few.

I might have posted this in the last thread, but this epitaph always gets me.

I was of delicate mind. I stepped aside for my needs,
Disdaining the common office. I was seen from afar and killed. . .
. How is this matter for mirth? Let each man be judged by his deeds.
I have paid my price to live with myself on the terms that I willed.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:33

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

wdarkk posted:

My candidate, assuming tankettes count.

Here's mine.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:38

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Grand Fromage posted:

Which tank is lovely enough that a large man with a titanium spear with say a tungsten or depleted uranium point could defeat it

I seem to remember early WW1 tanks were not actually bulletproof and could be stopped by machinegun fire.

xthetenth posted:

Honestly I want one so that I can point my mind's eye to it when thinking about combat. A curated collection of liveleak videos would probably go a long way but some shots you just can't get in a real fight.

Watch pubbies play ARMA3 and you might get a reasonable idea, apparently.

I still can't get over that ISIS video where the guys start slowly rolling sideways away from the outcropping with machineguns on it.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Aug 9, 2016

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:39

Plan Z: May 6, 2012

The only media I've seen that servicemen seem to agree on being realistic are Generation Kill and Pentagon Wars, and even Generation Kill has some debate about it. I had to watch Hurt Locker with a guy who was in US Marines EOD for eight years and I loving got an earful about it.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:40

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Ensign Expendable posted:

But yeah, RE: immobilized tank against infantry: once they're swarming all over your tank, you're screwed. The proper way to do it is

this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0fqTVyj8iQ

In German front you throw satchel charge at tank. In Finnish front - tank throw satchel charge at you!

# ? Aug 9, 2016 18:55

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# ? May 10, 2024 04:57

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Kajaka is worth watching, if the thread hasn't already.

lenoon posted:

Maybe. It was the No Conscription Fellowship line that a dishonourable discharge is a mark of honour, and they drove that pretty hard in their newspapers and periodicals. I guess without a group or a solid backup telling you that what you did was honourable, you'll look for that from the Army itself.

But then again, now that it's sat ticking over in the back of my mind, what greater victory for the Objector over the military can there be? He's fought for them to legally admit that what he did, and what thousands of other Americans did was honourable. What a victory over the military, over militarism itself! I think that's the principle that's at play here. He wanted recognition as an honourable man, and not from society, or from other COs, or peace organisations, but through sheer bloody mindedness, and stubborn refusal, principle and argument, from the Army itself, that they would acknowledge his refusal to fight as the honourable actions of an honourable man.

"Shoot, you son of a bitch" goes up there with the Frenchmen for steadfast refusal. I'll work out some way of putting it into my commentary to Soul of a Skunk (now 1/10ths done!).

The thing is, it seems that somehow he ended up falling into the non-combat service role that he would have taken had he been offered it, so I guess his logic was that the service he gave was that which in the end was asked of him and he was discharged honourably so he may as well stand up and make the government agree that he was just as valuable to society as someone with a rifle.

bewbies posted:

Why is it that war movies always feature actors that are way, way, way too drat old to be in the army? Hey, I'm 40 year old lieutenant clint eastwood and I'm taking orders from 42 year old tom hanks who must be the oldest infantry captain in the ETO, except then he meets 51 year old airborne captain ted danson and everybody is surprised until 46 year old lieutenant brad pitt walks up only to be outdone by 51 year old staff sergeant brad pitt

No idea why, but it seems it's always been like that. Lt. Col. Benjamin H. Vandervoort was pissed off at being played by John Wayne in The Longest Day, as Wayne was ten years older than he was at the time of filming, making him something like 20 years too old for the role.

# ? Aug 9, 2016 19:13

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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