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Designing around assuming that people will dupe ingredients is A Thing That You Should Not Do™
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Aug 8, 2016 07:24
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watho posted:Designing around assuming that people will dupe ingredients is A Thing That You Should Not Do™ It's not designed around assuming that people will dupe.
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Aug 8, 2016 08:04
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Game Design Fanfiction posted:All of these supplies are inventory items akin to planks, so they don't weigh you down. The game will try to only let as many people pick up items as are needed for the elves, but as always, duping is a possibility and recommended
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Aug 8, 2016 08:16
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Just because you know something can happen doesn't mean you expect it to be the norm or presume it will be rampant Please do not grasp at straws in our game design safe space
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Aug 8, 2016 08:31
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If your game design document says that an exploit is recommended then you're something very wrong. Don't get me wrong, this is not the worst part about DV but it is a nice and easily digestible way of demonstrating the fundamental flaws of thinking behind it.
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Aug 8, 2016 09:11
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well, it's probably not possible to correct the exploit, so there's nothing wrong in acknowledging an issue and it's potential implications. recommended may be a poor phrase compared to flat out saying "it would be beneficial for the player to exploit"
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Aug 8, 2016 09:24
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Shooting Blanks posted:New collaboration between Bethesda and Overkill: Bethesda does all the script writing for the next 5 heists. (B) HATE COPS
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Aug 8, 2016 12:54
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watho posted:If your game design document says that an exploit is recommended then you're something very wrong. Don't get me wrong, this is not the worst part about DV but it is a nice and easily digestible way of demonstrating the fundamental flaws of thinking behind it. This is mostly demonstrating the fundamental flaws in your brain. Tiler Kiwi posted:well, it's probably not possible to correct the exploit, so there's nothing wrong in acknowledging an issue and it's potential implications. This. I've changed the language in the main document.
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Aug 8, 2016 13:17
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 Sneak preview of upcoming Vice Principals themed DLC.
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Aug 8, 2016 14:38
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Discendo Vox posted:This is mostly demonstrating the fundamental flaws in your brain. turn your monitor on
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Aug 8, 2016 15:30
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Discendo Vox posted:This is mostly demonstrating the fundamental flaws in your brain. Aaaaaaaight...
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Aug 8, 2016 15:49
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Oh, I thought Vox was being ironic as a joke to Tempest. I see now that was incorrect.
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Aug 8, 2016 16:04
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Discendo Vox posted:Santa’s Workshop This was and still is one of your worst bits of theory-crafting. You have successfully created Unfair Tedium: The Game. Psion posted:Oh, I thought Vox was being ironic as a joke to Tempest. I see now that was incorrect. This isn't even the first time he's posted Death Vox Santa's Workshop. I believe last time he and I had a bit of a fight over it, because it's absolutely an unadulterated piece of poo poo.
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Aug 8, 2016 16:18
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Psion posted:Oh, I thought Vox was being ironic as a joke to Tempest. I see now that was incorrect. It is, but it's also the actual heist design. It seems tedious to some people because they have strong selective reading skills. There is more going on with the heist than the first sentence of the description. Tempest_56 posted:This was and still is one of your worst bits of theory-crafting. You have successfully created Unfair Tedium: The Game. Again,
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Aug 8, 2016 17:21
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Remind me, what are the general changes in DV?
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Aug 8, 2016 17:28
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DV loud generally gives you one additional advantage in that Bain will intercept the hacker’s communications with police. What this means from a gameplay perspective is that, like in Payday 1, you will get warning of certain scripted events before they happen. As a general fix I’m assuming could be implemented, latency issues with switching off powerboxes/etc are addressed by making the action take a couple seconds. Black Ops are the new basic enemy unit on DV. They have similar weapons and stats when compared with Gensec elites. I wouldn't really change their behavior much (largely relying on the Gensec elite AI, which spawns them in teams of four that try to concentrate fire and stay together). Unlike Gensec elites, they can't be dominated. This may seem to make dominate/joker even weaker, but other high-level police will still spawn on DV, and in many cases there won't be any civilians to use as hostages, making those skills essential. - Black Ops teams will have a tendency to “breach” at some spawn positions. This means that one or more black ops teams immediately spawn into a location almost simultaneously with a flashbang and a smoke grenade. This doesn't mean teleporting enemies- it just means some locations that had previously been safe are now much less so. Black Ops guards are security guards sent by the G-man that appear in some stealth settings. They generally look like more intimidating, professional versions of the suited guards that appear on, e.g., Framing Frame 3. Black Ops guards have different idle animations, but otherwise are not mechanically different in stealth than normal guards. Pagers are answered by the G-man himself, but are part of the same pool of 4. When alerted, their guns pack a much stronger punch, equivalent to a bronco cop. Black Ops guards are effectively a sign that the G- man is personally attending to the location you’re hitting. Snipers only spawn using the greenish “murky” model. They have the same health and damage as Overkill snipers. Snipers can spawn in between assault waves, particularly in something that Bain or the intercepted police comms would call an "overwatch", which basically translates to a large set of sniper positions spawning at once. Sniper positions are generally changed to nastier or less predictable locations on DV maps. Shields will, when not scripted to defend a position, generally attempt to close with and melee players. The time to loss of focus will also be increased, meaning breaking line of sight to make them turn away will take longer. These changes incentivize Iron Man, but can cause problems if you need to deal with a Shield combined with other enemies. Bulldozers can, like in Payday 1, run. They’re also completely immune to explosive damage. No LMGs, though, and no other major changes. The Thanatos will still work great on Bulldozers, but I'm hoping to create more situations where players are forced to confront them up close. -On loud maps involving a thermal drill, Bain will sometimes announce that a "Demo Team" is going for the drill. This means a differently colored Bulldozer is going to spawn (with some escort, usually shields and blops). This enemy will singlemindedly path to, and attempt to plant C4 on, the thermal drill. If they do so, and if the C4 isn't immediately defused (a hard thing to do with the Bully right there), the drill is destroyed and Bain will have to have another one flown/driven to the location, usually in an exposed place. Progress on the drill will be kept. Demo Dozers have about twice as much health as normal dozers. Demo Teams are scripted such that their appearance is somewhat random, but the number of times they can spawn is fixed. You’ll never be inundated with 40 of them in a heist. Tasers take significantly less time to down a player, so getting tased actually is tense, rather than getting downed just being an issue of whether or not you're being hit through a wall. The tasing animation will also be harder to shoot through, as in payday 1. Cloakers no longer make the feedback sound when not charging. This should be less of an issue because by the time you're playing DV you'd usually know where they come from, anyways. Cloaker spawns will be normalized, and there will be fewer maps with inexplicable inundations of cloakers (this appears to be caused by a slapdash spawn allocation design choice when the new enemy was added). However, the game will be able to spawn a four-member cloaker team. SWAT Turrets may spawn in different positions, and reload in about 75% of their normal time. They’re also heavily resistant to explosives and immune to fire. Captain Winters will often spawn at a scripted point in a heist to maximize the annoyance/difficulty of getting to him. His defense position may be changed or even randomly selected between locations to increase exposure. He and his unit will be majorly resistant to fire and explosions. His booster effect and health will be unchanged. vvvv I haven't been able to decide on that because the values have been so heavily in flux, and there are so many bugs effecting things. With the game as it is, DW stats would almost work in most cases, but that's almost certainly going to change as, e.g., accuracy and Frenzy get fixed and as the devs apply difficulty buffs. Before the weapon stats rebalance and the skill changes, the base values were going to be Overkill. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 17:37
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And cop stats are generally based on OVK values? Or DW values? Aside from the ones you specify above.
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Aug 8, 2016 17:41
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Discendo Vox posted:It is, but it's also the actual heist design. It seems tedious to some people because they have strong selective reading skills. There is more going on with the heist than the first sentence of the description. it seems tedious to some people because they arent brokebrained sociopaths, actually
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Aug 8, 2016 18:20
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it seems tedious to me but the parent designs are basically piles of creamy poo poo and you can only polish those turds so much
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Aug 8, 2016 19:06
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Discendo Vox posted:This enemy will singlemindedly path to, and attempt to plant C4 on, the thermal drill. If they do so, and if the C4 isn't immediately defused (a hard thing to do with the Bully right there), the drill is destroyed and Bain will have to have another one flown/driven to the location, usually in an exposed place. This restarts progress on the drill. ... Demo Teams are scripted such that their appearance is somewhat random, but the number of times they can spawn is fixed. You’ll never be inundated with 40 of them in a heist. It's been a while since you've posted these so maybe I've said this before, but this seems overly punitive and terrible to play. The whole drill delivery wait/risk seems like punishment enough. Needing to then also restart the entire objective from scratch, one that's already a large time sink by design, would be just awful, especially if the drill was already close to completion. On a different note, thoughts on adapting the overwatch idea into a Captain event?
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Aug 8, 2016 19:26
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John Murdoch posted:It's been a while since you've posted these so maybe I've said this before, but this seems overly punitive and terrible to play. The whole drill delivery wait/risk seems like punishment enough. Needing to then also restart the entire objective from scratch, one that's already a large time sink by design, would be just awful, especially if the drill was already close to completion. John Murdoch posted:On a different note, thoughts on adapting the overwatch idea into a Captain event? That's a really good idea! While Captain Deadshot is on the map, sniper spawns start to work like payday 1's Undercover. I'll think about it.
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Aug 8, 2016 19:41
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Discendo Vox posted:You may be right. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to balance the player incentives for it, because I want players to feel a real sense of urgency when Bain says a Demo dozer is arriving. What if the delivery of the new drill was near-instantaneous?
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Aug 8, 2016 19:42
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Discendo Vox posted:That's a really good idea! While Captain Deadshot is on the map, sniper spawns start to work like payday 1's Undercover. I'll think about it. He was always "Fumbles."
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Aug 8, 2016 19:49
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Discendo Vox posted:You may be right. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to balance the player incentives for it, because I want players to feel a real sense of urgency when Bain says a Demo dozer is arriving. What if the delivery of the new drill was near-instantaneous? I really think you'd be better off tweaking the delay until a new drill is delivered than erasing any progress made when the players gently caress up. People are going to get frustrated and turned off to it if they feel like they're back where they were two minutes ago. Like, why would you make the same mistake with drills that Overkill made with FF day 3 stealth? Players are going to be plenty motivated to avoid a 30-60s time-out IMO. Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 20:08
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Discendo Vox posted:You may be right. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to balance the player incentives for it, because I want players to feel a real sense of urgency when Bain says a Demo dozer is arriving. What if the delivery of the new drill was near-instantaneous? Like I said, I think having progress blocked by a super broke dick piece of poo poo drill while you wait for the replacement is all you need. It also fits neatly into the existing "defend the drill" paradigm by itself - let a normal cop get to the drill, suffer a 10 second repair delay, let the demo team get to the drill, suffer a 60 second (or whatever) "repair" delay. An instantaneous delivery would just mean that the level of punishment would hinge on when the drill got blown up. Even though both methods effectively add time onto the heist, no player is going to enjoy the feeling of having their progress erased. And while appeals to realism are rarely a thing, everyone is inevitably going to wonder exactly why you need to start from scratch. Fake edit: Beaten. Discendo Vox posted:That's a really good idea! While Captain Deadshot is on the map, sniper spawns start to work like payday 1's Undercover. I'll think about it. I had a few different takes of my own. Either a squad of super snipers, closely matching your original overwatch concept, but with slightly higher health or a single roaming super sniper with boss health and at set percentages he retreats to a new location, perhaps a mix of ground spots and sniper roosts. Overall I like the idea of a sniper that can't be knocked out just by waving nearly any gun in the game in his general direction, though it's obviously the sort of thing that needs to be handled delicately. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 20:23
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Make it so the demo team doesn't entirely remove the drill, but just breaks it super bad so you need spare parts to fix it (like the beast). Just cause the drill was removed doesn't mean the hole it was making suddenly disappears.
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Aug 8, 2016 20:25
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John Murdoch posted:Like I said, I think having progress blocked by a super broke dick piece of poo poo drill while you wait for the replacement is all you need. It also fits neatly into the existing "defend the drill" paradigm by itself - let a normal cop get to the drill, suffer a 10 second repair delay, let the demo team get to the drill, suffer a 60 second (or whatever) "repair" delay. An instantaneous delivery would just mean that the level of punishment would hinge on when the drill got blown up. Even though both methods effectively add time onto the heist, no player is going to enjoy the feeling of having their progress erased. And while appeals to realism are rarely a thing, everyone is inevitably going to wonder exactly why you need to start from scratch. Concordat posted:Make it so the demo team doesn't entirely remove the drill, but just breaks it super bad so you need spare parts to fix it (like the beast). These are some great points. In particular, I somehow missed the variable effect of having the drill blow up at different points of progress. While it could be interesting to have heightened stakes over time, you're right that it's too much of a turn-off. I'll modify the description so you keep progress, and the penalty is the wait/retrieving the drill. Concordat, the beast is pretty much why I don't go the spare parts route. This is going to be something that happens on Big Bank and the item overlap would cause problems. Ironically, I think that is what's going to happen on Golden Grin- the demo dozer will just have the effect of instantly overheating the drill, meaning you need spare parts. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 20:33
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On Death Vox, tazers now reverse your controls
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Aug 9, 2016 08:02
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To be honest if it switched you from inverted to non inverted controls, or vice versa, that might be an interesting mechanic. Only during the taze effect though.
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Aug 9, 2016 15:03
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The Death Renegret version of every heist involves giving me more heads to click on. And unlimited trip mines
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Aug 9, 2016 15:17
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Death Skunk Every heist is forced stealth. 
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Aug 9, 2016 17:25
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swims posted:To be honest if it switched you from inverted to non inverted controls, or vice versa, that might be an interesting mechanic. Only during the taze effect though. Tasers can already hide behind things and move while tasing you, they don't need to be harder.
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Aug 9, 2016 17:59
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Skunkrocker posted:Death Skunk You but this would actually be a far more interesting design challenge than Vox's "How can I make this as pointlessly dickish as possible?". Particularly some of the heists that are objective-based rather than bag-based like Hox Break or Boiling Point.
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Aug 9, 2016 18:13
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Death Rox Everything is loud and on DW
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Aug 9, 2016 19:01
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Tempest_56 posted:You I 'd because I thought I'd be the only person who would like that idea.
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Aug 9, 2016 19:03
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Tempest_56 posted:Particularly some of the heists that are objective-based rather than bag-based like Hox Break or Boiling Point. Hoxbreak Day 2 has already been done- it's not that interesting, surprisingly. Day 1 would be pretty simple. Boiling Point would require a lot of work to be plausible.
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Aug 9, 2016 19:26
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Discendo Vox posted:Hoxbreak Day 2 has already been done- it's not that interesting, surprisingly. Day 1 would be pretty simple. Boiling Point would require a lot of work to be plausible. Step one: Completely modifying the first part of the map since you only get into the lumbermill via blowing up the wall.  Those kind of problems aside, I could see a sneaky James Bond version of the map potentially working.Ultimately, there's really very few loud-only heists that could be readily converted, perhaps aside from the couple that have aborted stealth routes already - Election Day 2B, Under the Mountain, and Firestarter 1, sort of. The rest are in that weird grey area where they might work with substantial alterations, but aren't really designed with stealth gameplay in mind. Like, I could see going to town with modding tools to create a stealth version of something like HLM 1, but the end result would probably lack challenge and scope.
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Aug 9, 2016 19:38
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Death Cheeto is just Long Guide trivia questions in between assault waves.
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Aug 9, 2016 19:55
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Tempest_56 posted:Are we talking an infinite amount of safes at once (so we can have 10+ broken drills at the same time), or safes infinitely inside each other like a demented Titan matyroshka doll? 
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Aug 9, 2016 19:58
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Discendo Vox posted:Hoxbreak Day 2 has already been done- it's not that interesting, surprisingly. Day 1 would be pretty simple. Boiling Point would require a lot of work to be plausible. I've seen Hoxbreak 2, but I'm thinking more Day 1 - I'm seeing a mad scramble to stay in stealth while keeping ahead of the truck and staging various distractions to draw the cops away from the truck/move obstacles without arousing suspicion. Boiling Point actually strikes me as pretty easy. Part 1 would be manually moving the bomb into the lumber mill, then having it charge. Since it'd alert the guards, you'd have to keep watch for patrols and occasionally disassemble it, move the bomb to another location, then set it back up and continue the charging sequence. Then a mad rush - part 2 would be 'okay, we set the EMP off, any pager that goes off in the next 60s is permanently gone - you have to clear out the entire lower lab of XX number of guards before that happens'. Follow that up with a bit of stealth whack-a-mole - new guards entering and leaving the map (like the extra guard on Framing Frame) on a semi-regular basis while the players run around to flip switches/hit buttons to keep the scans going and unnoticed. Then the fairly standard extract sequence. It'd be a fair few changes, but it's not that implausible. (Nor is it really intended to be, none of this poo poo is going to happen and stealth still means not clicking cops.)
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Aug 9, 2016 20:03
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