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Ringo Star Get posted:I was having a discussion with a friend of mine regarding what sort of changes we would make to X-Wing that would make it better, etc and something popped into my mind: If Kylo Ren becomes a big part of the meta, we might see Determination come back on it's own.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:08
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Endman posted:Yeah this is also a good point. Rebels become really powerful due to their large number of shields. Anyone who loves the Decimator as much as me will tell you those things are walking crit magnets to begin with, jfc would that ship be worthless with those rules. StuG Jeebus posted:If Kylo Ren becomes a big part of the meta, we might see Determination come back on it's own. This is also a good point, I feel Limo Driver Ren is going to be a think.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:09
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StuG Jeebus posted:If Kylo Ren becomes a big part of the meta, we might see Determination come back on it's own. I hadn't thought about that, but it completely negates his condition card.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:10
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StuG Jeebus posted:If Kylo Ren becomes a big part of the meta, we might see Determination come back on it's own. I don't see determination ever being worth giving up your EPT slot.
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Aug 10, 2016 01:12
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Just what the Palp shuttle needed: a coordinate action to boost Palp ace list action economy, another red die on attack, and a super powerful pilot ability
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Aug 10, 2016 01:13
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One of the flaws of X-wing IMO balance-wise is that you already have to pay for EPT slots so it makes anything where you don't have an immediate synergy worthless. This is why the niche EPTs don't get used- it's always the ones going on expensive ships already to give them some action economy,
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Aug 10, 2016 01:15
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Panzeh posted:One of the flaws of X-wing IMO balance-wise is that you already have to pay for EPT slots so it makes anything where you don't have an immediate synergy worthless. This is why the niche EPTs don't get used- it's always the ones going on expensive ships already to give them some action economy, X-wing ship has 8 named pilots. 4 of them have EPTs. It's a shame
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Aug 10, 2016 01:19
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T-70 X-wing has four (currently released) named pilots. Two of them have EPTs. The pilot called "Red Squadron Veteran" has an EPT. The pilots named "Red Squadron Ace" and "Blue Squadron Ace" to do not. 
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Aug 10, 2016 01:22
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Allow me to expand a little bit more on my proposed rules: A ship's attack and agility rating cannot be exceeded. The amount of dice can increase, but it'll never exceed its natural stats. For example: X-Wing has 3 ATK and 2 AGL. The most damage it will do is 3, the most evades it'll have is 2. Against TIE Fighters in a group, the X-Wing has its shields but isn't maneuverable. It'll have to use its jousting firepower along with its astromech to stay alive. Astromechs for X, Y, and E-Wings are specialized in either boosting speed, maneuverability, targeting, etc. an example would be an R2 unit for the X-Wing that gives the fighter the ability to barrel roll or perform K-turns at different speeds. Also, thinking about making stress more of a ship factor rather than a pilot issue. When rolling attack dice, we have hits and crits, which will both deal face up damage cards, but crits will add stress to the ship. That's the gist of what I had talked about to my buddy. There's obviously going to have to be a re-spec of cost of upgrades and ships to make it even, but a playtest is something I'm going to aim for sometime this week or next. Obviously these changes might make the games quicker and more vicious. That's space combat - it's supposed to be brutal. Plus quicker games = more games to play!
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Aug 10, 2016 01:59
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What would break if all generics had no EPT and all named pilots had an EPT?
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Aug 10, 2016 02:24
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Admiral Joeslop posted:What would break if all generics had no EPT and all named pilots had an EPT? Green Squad A-wings would go back to being pointlessly irrelevant, U-boats would stop existing immediately (please God), and Crack Swarms of every stripe would suddenly end.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:27
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I feel like Miranda would just get way too bonkers with an EPT. Not giving K-wings the slot was a good idea.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:29
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The VCX pilots would be nuts with EPTs.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:37
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Hera with Stay on Target?
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Aug 10, 2016 02:39
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bunnyofdoom posted:Hera with Stay on Target? Even just VI would be slick with her, to move at PS9. PTL on recon specialist Kanan means you'd get 2 focus tokens and an evade token every turn.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:45
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So me and my sister have been playing basicly the same lists over and over, because we're both trying to get good at flying them and refining them. My sister's been flying an Jake+A swarm with tracers on all but one (which has a prockets). I've been flying the list I mentioned before (Maarak D/Tormax Shuttle/Inqy). I tried out the Tie/X7 instead of D title and while tractoring close and then hitting with primaries was fun, I think it is a better fit, being able to get the evades (When I remember it!). I put tactician with Mara Jade on the shuttle (because someone in my local group suggested it). I think the idea is, I can use tactician in the early battle (or after we both turn around and tend to get some distance) and I Mara'd them when I get close. Sadly, I never really did get into exactly range 2 position to use tactician (I may have forgot, though I think it was range 3 and then we closed quickly to range 1). I also put PtL on Inqy, as per suggestions, which I think was a very good idea. I took out Jake in the 2nd or 3rd round, and then Maraak went down soon after, being tracered and then shot a bunch. Inqy got killed fairly quickly soon after, leaving the shuttle last this time. I managed to remove the shields on 2 of the other As, and the others were untouched. I feel like a lot of it was the flying, she was able to predict pretty well where I was going, and keep alternating ships in my arc so I couldn't focus fire. I did get to mara jade her once (the other time everyone was already stressed). I'm also pretty sure I forgot to crack-shot a few times (which would have helped) and use the stealth device on the shuttle, though since it was the last ship it didn't really matter much. We called it because of time. The tournament's this Sunday, so I'm not getting any more live practice games. I have no idea of what I should run. if I should abandon this whole vet idea and run something else. I'm thinking of swapping in Soontir instead of the shuttle, or even Maraak.
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Aug 10, 2016 03:54
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Admiral Joeslop posted:What would break if all generics had no EPT and all named pilots had an EPT? That would be really dumb.
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Aug 10, 2016 03:57
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EBWOP: This is the list I had. Turns out I miscounted and shouldn't have had the SD on the shuttle anyway. Big Hitter Vets Also, I can't seem to find it, does anyone have the lists of top lists at Gencon this year? Or is it too early and I just need to wait? I found last years, and it's interesting. Four Fat han varients in the top 8. One is a fat chewie. but close enough. :P). I didn't think fat han was still being run that much anymore. Foolster41 fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 04:04
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Ringo Star Get posted:Allow me to expand a little bit more on my proposed rules: I mean obviously you can do what every you like but I'm really curious how you would cost your ships in this set of rules. You've effectively removed all the range and obstruction rules. In your rules an x-wing with a focus token has a 60% chance to put some damage on a Tie fighter at any range, about 10% of those hit are instant kills. A Tie Fighter with focus has about the same chance of hitting an x-wing but obviously can only do 2 damage at most so will take about 3 rounds of shooting to down an x-wing. It seems that slow rolling x-wings will just obliterate the Ties because range and obstruction is irrelevant. How much do you think a Tie or X-Wing would be worth in this system?
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Aug 10, 2016 09:50
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Aramoro posted:I mean obviously you can do what every you like but I'm really curious how you would cost your ships in this set of rules. You've effectively removed all the range and obstruction rules. In your rules an x-wing with a focus token has a 60% chance to put some damage on a Tie fighter at any range, about 10% of those hit are instant kills. A Tie Fighter with focus has about the same chance of hitting an x-wing but obviously can only do 2 damage at most so will take about 3 rounds of shooting to down an x-wing. - If your TIE is attacked at range 3, you still get to roll 4 dice (thus the range bonus still counts), but the maximum number of evades you can roll is 3, so if you roll 4, it goes down to 3. So an unfocused x-wing attacking a TIE at range 3 still has the same chance of doing damage this way as the previous version, since rolling 3 or 4 evades is equivalent if you are defending against 4 dice. the difference would be if you have 4 attack vs 4 evade, in which case there would be one guaranteed damage if you rolled all hits, but you still have a higher chance of rolling at least 3 evades when rolling 4 evade dice. I don't think the system would work very well and would be confusing.
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Aug 10, 2016 10:15
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It'd be even harder to kill evade tanking ships. If you can reliably hit 3 evade results somehow, you're effectively immune to being shot with that setup, since range 1 shot would only be able to generate 3 hits. Basically you'd only ever see ships with 4 natural attack dice played (or some other method to get 4 hit results) because of the threat Soontir or Whisper dodging everything. Seems really bad. I think if you want to go this direction, you could just do away with dice rolling completely: Ships have fixed attack and defense stats, current amount of red dice = attack, current green dice -1 = defense. Range mods add a success either way. Focus can add one success on offense or defense. Target lock adds a hit and causes a crit if damage goes through. Evade adds an evade and cancels out crits. Reroll EPT and pilot abilities would have to be looked at and do something new like add crits or successes to a limited number of rolls per turn? What do Autoblasters do? Autothrusters? This would be the majority of updating work I imagine. Also revising ship costs probably. Okay so this is totally randomly off the top of my head. So let's see if it's even remotely viable. With this system, a Standard Soontir would be 3 evades (2 base + 1 for Stealth Device), plus focus, focus, evade. Functionally immune to 2 dice shots. But, 3 dice, range 1, TL + Focus would always go through with 6 hits to Soontir's 5 Mac evades. Two range 1 3 dice shots both with TL or Focus would always go through. Palpatine, who loving knows what he'd have to do. Actually I don't think that's too bad, Soontir is probably more reliably killed in this than normally, funny enough. Once he's hit, he'd only be 2 auto evades, which helps. Banking target locks would be a viable option? Alright, welp, that's my terrible no-planning, probably full of holes, X-Wing 2.0 idea, enjoy!  Edit: first problem I already found: swarms, with greater numbers of actions which are effectively auto damage, possibly way too strong. Two TIEs fighting an X-Wing, all focusing, mean TIEs could safely use focus to deal hits until wounded and chunk 3-4 HP off the X-Wing in the first pass if they get range 2. Is that worse than average rolled damage? Edit 2: yes much worse haha holy poo poo Edit 3: TIE Fighter would prob need to be like 14-15 points to work. 3 Fighters against 2 X-Wings or B-Wings seems much less one sided. Slab Squatthrust fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 13:53
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Yeah admittedly my thoughts aren't perfect - I'm hoping to keep tinkering with it. To get around tankier ships that can keep evades and such, there would modifications that can increase AGL or ATK, etc. I also thought about how a ship that is facing away from its attacker (being chased with an enemy on your six) could possibly reduce your evade possibility. My first initial playtest is going to be just X-Wings and TIEs and work from there. It'll probably be terrible but I've seen worse.
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Aug 10, 2016 16:50
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My gut feel is that x-wing 2.0 should do away with green dice entirely, and just give each ship its green value in evade tokens per round (obviously removing the restriction on spending multiple ones per attack) thus basically meaning that weight of fire is guaranteed to eventually do damage to Soontir, as opposed to being a dice-fest. Obviously it would need rebalancing hugely, but I like the idea of making agility predictable.
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Aug 10, 2016 17:30
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I think if green dice were done away entirely, and just allowed evade tokens to be used, attack dice modifiers would have to be looked at I think. I like the idea of it tho, deciding whether to use your tokens strategically during certain attacks, etc.
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Aug 10, 2016 17:52
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Ringo Star Get posted:I think if green dice were done away entirely, and just allowed evade tokens to be used, attack dice modifiers would have to be looked at I think. I like the idea of it tho, deciding whether to use your tokens strategically during certain attacks, etc. Oh absolutely. The game would need comprehensive rebalancing, HP and attack both. But we're talking about a hypothetical 2.0 release, not something that's actually going to happen so
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Aug 10, 2016 17:56
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Are there any games that change the defensive formula depending on which angle something is being attacked from? Like, putting a mark on the ship base card at 12 o clock, 3, 6 and 9 and have the defense mechanisms reward or penalize attacks from certain angles? Probably a silly idea for this game, because as it stands a flanking attack or attack from behind is it's own reward because you can shoot without being shot at. And a big part of the charm and fun of this game is the simple rule set.
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Aug 10, 2016 18:03
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A fair number of games based on tank combat or Napoleonic naval battles but I don't think it would be worth it in X-Wing
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Aug 10, 2016 18:05
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The more fundamental problem is that in X-Wing, agile guns are the same as powerful guns. We need some weapons that roll shitloads (4+) of dice but only deal 1 damage. The issue right now is that the stuff that counters high-agility ships also kills the poo poo out of low-agility ships. TLT was an attempt at this, but it was totally hosed because they made it a turret and also made it effectively deal 2 damage (so it didn't deal with agile AT ships and wrecked low-agility ships).
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Aug 10, 2016 18:29
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Corbeau posted:The more fundamental problem is that in X-Wing, agile guns are the same as powerful guns. We need some weapons that roll shitloads (4+) of dice but only deal 1 damage. The issue right now is that the stuff that counters high-agility ships also kills the poo poo out of low-agility ships. TLT was an attempt at this, but it was totally hosed because they made it a turret and also made it effectively deal 2 damage (so it didn't deal with agile AT ships and wrecked low-agility ships). Yes, this is good. See, there's lots of design space still open!
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Aug 10, 2016 18:31
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canyoneer posted:Some other list shenanigans: I tried this and it was hilariously impotent. Still fun to play with,
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Aug 10, 2016 18:37
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Corbeau posted:The more fundamental problem is that in X-Wing, agile guns are the same as powerful guns. We need some weapons that roll shitloads (4+) of dice but only deal 1 damage. The issue right now is that the stuff that counters high-agility ships also kills the poo poo out of low-agility ships. TLT was an attempt at this, but it was totally hosed because they made it a turret and also made it effectively deal 2 damage (so it didn't deal with agile AT ships and wrecked low-agility ships). This is a good point. Heavy ion cannon maybe? Roll a gazillion dice, but tops out at 1 damage? bestbrents posted:I tried this and it was hilariously impotent. Still fun to play with, I expected as much. You can get anywhere, but it's pillowfists without any dice mods. It might still be fun with Rey and the new title to get the in-arc rerolls, but at PS8 you're not likely to move last against most lists which defeats the whole point of it. edit: nevermind, new title says you can't be stressed to do the sloop.
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Aug 10, 2016 18:48
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Corbeau posted:The more fundamental problem is that in X-Wing, agile guns are the same as powerful guns. We need some weapons that roll shitloads (4+) of dice but only deal 1 damage. The issue right now is that the stuff that counters high-agility ships also kills the poo poo out of low-agility ships. TLT was an attempt at this, but it was totally hosed because they made it a turret and also made it effectively deal 2 damage (so it didn't deal with agile AT ships and wrecked low-agility ships). Yeah, this is solid. Autoblasters are also actually a fantastic option for evade stack countering, but there's so few platforms that can carry the turret, and the cannon variant is pretty expensive thanks to being 3 dice. A cheaper, 2 dice version would be easier to add to a list. But oooh well.
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Aug 10, 2016 19:01
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The Gate posted:Yeah, this is solid. Autoblasters are also actually a fantastic option for evade stack countering, but there's so few platforms that can carry the turret, and the cannon variant is pretty expensive thanks to being 3 dice. A cheaper, 2 dice version would be easier to add to a list. But oooh well. What's interesting too is that there are no PS9 cannon platforms. If you want to load up an autoblaster and move after the vast majority of slippery aces (PS9), you're giving up your elite slot which probably means you can't take PTL and have to trade off post-dial discretionary movement for dice mods. I wonder how Scum Boba with Dengar crew, EU, and autoblaster would do? Seems too expensive for the gimmick, and the Inquisitor can stay at range 3 all day without a problem.
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Aug 10, 2016 19:59
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canyoneer posted:What's interesting too is that there are no PS9 cannon platforms. Maybe too expensive/niche, but it'd probably be easy to catch the Inquisitor with that setup, assuming Boba takes VI. The Inquisitor can either token stack or gtfo, not both generally, so a careful move with Boba followed up with the enormous boost movement on a large base should be enough to catch him. Unless the Inquisitor is just running away all the time, which is win win for Boba since he'll just go eat the other ship or Palp I assume. That could all change with the Upsilon's coordinate action though. That thing is going to be really solid even without Palp on it, assuming the dial isn't somehow even worse than the lambda. No stop maneuver, hopefully?
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Aug 10, 2016 20:07
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Corbeau posted:The more fundamental problem is that in X-Wing, agile guns are the same as powerful guns. We need some weapons that roll shitloads (4+) of dice but only deal 1 damage. The issue right now is that the stuff that counters high-agility ships also kills the poo poo out of low-agility ships. TLT was an attempt at this, but it was totally hosed because they made it a turret and also made it effectively deal 2 damage (so it didn't deal with agile AT ships and wrecked low-agility ships). Hypothetical Upgrade Whatever Slot, A Reasonable Number of Points 5 Dice Range 1-3 Before dealing damage to the defender, cancel 2 of your results. Or maybe an EPT that's just add one then cancel one? IDK there's stuff you can do. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 21:59
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Otisburg posted:Hypothetical Upgrade The problem there is that if you roll 4 hits and they roll two Evades, you don't deal any damage. I think what Corbeau is suggesting is something on the order of an Ion Cannon. Roll X dice, if you hit them, they take exactly one damage and you cancel all the results.
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Aug 10, 2016 22:04
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Some Numbers posted:The problem there is that if you roll 4 hits and they roll two Evades, you don't deal any damage. Maybe my wording was unclear, I meant for the cancel to occur immediately after the "compare results" step.
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Aug 10, 2016 22:05
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Otisburg posted:Maybe my wording was unclear, I meant for the cancel to occur immediately after the "compare results" step. It still does literally nothing though?
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Aug 10, 2016 22:43
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You'd probably want to word it in a similar way to how R4-D6 is worded, which is When you are hit by an attack and there are at least 3 uncanceled HIT results, you may choose to cancel those results until there are 2 remaining. For each result canceled this way, receive 1 stress token.
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Aug 11, 2016 00:33
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I've also been thinking of a way to deal with this sort of thing and I came up with a similar solution playing FTL: Flak Cannon 5 2-3 If this attack hits and the defender has no remaining shield tokens, deal one face down damage card to the defending ship. If the defender were to lose all shield tokens in this attack, cancel the remaining results (or something along those lines) 6/7 points But I honestly don't know if flak cannons exist in the Star Wars universe
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Aug 11, 2016 00:50
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