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FaustianQ posted:Enemies being more capable of defending themselves should either mean resistances are dropped or a prelude to dealing more effective damage. I doubt they're gonna drop resistances, they'll probably leave them in and add the blocking/evading poo poo.
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Aug 11, 2016 06:25
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TheTatteredKing posted:Maybe they'll buff melee a lot and make it about timing between parries? You're giving Tripwire far too much credit. That's too good of an idea for them and would make a class feel powerful, the latter which is a giant no-no to Tripwire.
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Aug 11, 2016 06:35
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You people need help. Go outside, play Overwatch or something. KF1, poo poo.
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Aug 11, 2016 07:05
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Bogart posted:You people need help. Go outside, play Overwatch or something. KF1, poo poo. Perhaps kill some GIANT INSECTS? Getting back into EDF has been very cathartic.
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Aug 11, 2016 07:21
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Payday 2 scratches the itch and has the opposite design ethos of KF2
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Aug 11, 2016 08:02
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It's rare for enemies to block in the lower difficulties (and still not all that common in the upper ones), and when they do block, the blocks don't absorb a lot of damage (an extra bullet or light attack IIRC). We've also lowered their average TTK (time to kill, basically how long it takes to mow them down) anyway so it's the about the same time/ammo requirement. Same with evade; it's rare but when it happens it's almost always not the one you're aiming at but the ones flanking it, so you'll see a group of crawlers spread out if you blow the head off the lead one. These aren't designed to make fights last longer or make them more difficult, just make them more interesting while keeping similar kill times.
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Aug 11, 2016 08:16
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Payday 2 scratches the itch and has the opposite design ethos of KF2 Frenzy+Anarchist tree build is the most fun I've ever had in any game EVER.
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Aug 11, 2016 08:47
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Using the perk that gives you infinite ammo and no reloads for 10 seconds after setting down an ammo back and then just turning the double barreled shotgun into a moving wall of hot lead death is one of my fave things in Payday 2.
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Aug 11, 2016 10:02
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turnways posted:It's rare for enemies to block in the lower difficulties (and still not all that common in the upper ones), and when they do block, the blocks don't absorb a lot of damage (an extra bullet or light attack IIRC). We've also lowered their average TTK (time to kill, basically how long it takes to mow them down) anyway so it's the about the same time/ammo requirement. Same with evade; it's rare but when it happens it's almost always not the one you're aiming at but the ones flanking it, so you'll see a group of crawlers spread out if you blow the head off the lead one. These aren't designed to make fights last longer or make them more difficult, just make them more interesting while keeping similar kill times. Thanks, not sure I can speak for the thread, but I do appreciate knowing the intention going into the design. Guess I'll set some time aside in the weekend to test the beta!
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Aug 11, 2016 12:31
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turnways posted:It's rare for enemies to block in the lower difficulties (and still not all that common in the upper ones), and when they do block, the blocks don't absorb a lot of damage (an extra bullet or light attack IIRC). We've also lowered their average TTK (time to kill, basically how long it takes to mow them down) anyway so it's the about the same time/ammo requirement. Same with evade; it's rare but when it happens it's almost always not the one you're aiming at but the ones flanking it, so you'll see a group of crawlers spread out if you blow the head off the lead one. These aren't designed to make fights last longer or make them more difficult, just make them more interesting while keeping similar kill times. So what you're saying is that, substantively, there's little to no difference? And you all committed design time to it because...?
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Aug 11, 2016 14:17
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QwertySanchez posted:Using the perk that gives you infinite ammo and no reloads for 10 seconds after setting down an ammo back and then just turning the double barreled shotgun into a moving wall of hot lead death is one of my fave things in Payday 2. Minigun.
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Aug 11, 2016 14:22
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Oh man, I didn't notice this in the stream but apparently when you're down to 1 zed left, a marker will appear on the map to show you where they are. I've run into the "where the gently caress is this last crawler" thing on Hostile Ground a number of times, so this will be a godsend.
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Aug 11, 2016 17:25
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LuciferMorningstar posted:So what you're saying is that, substantively, there's little to no difference? And you all committed design time to it because...? Because its more interesting I know that it doesn't take longer and therefore doesn't officially change much, but actually having to adjust my aim is a cool thing that i'm ok with because it feels better. Hopefully anyway, who knows, it might be another tested well internally thing
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Aug 11, 2016 17:42
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LuciferMorningstar posted:So what you're saying is that, substantively, there's little to no difference? And you all committed design time to it because...? turnways posted:It's rare for enemies to block in the lower difficulties (and still not all that common in the upper ones), and when they do block, the blocks don't absorb a lot of damage (an extra bullet or light attack IIRC). We've also lowered their average TTK (time to kill, basically how long it takes to mow them down) anyway so it's the about the same time/ammo requirement. Same with evade; it's rare but when it happens it's almost always not the one you're aiming at but the ones flanking it, so you'll see a group of crawlers spread out if you blow the head off the lead one. These aren't designed to make fights last longer or make them more difficult, just make them more interesting while keeping similar kill times. i feel like you should have been able to grok this particular jive and think on the given example and reasonably conclude 'hm, yes, this would probably be kind of cool and more fun than seeing an identical swarm behave identically for the billionth time' turnways you are doing a very good job of engaging with this thread. i am still deeply suspicious of tripwire in many ways but you're slowly pushing the ball back the other way. you are appreciated.
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Aug 11, 2016 17:51
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I'll believe the changes are good when I see them actually materialize and not suck. Until then, I will assume the worst. There's really no compelling reason to give TWI the benefit of the doubt at this point.
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Aug 11, 2016 17:58
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I'll believe the changes are good when I see them actually materialize and not suck. Until then, I will assume the worst. There's really no compelling reason to give TWI the benefit of the doubt at this point. this is reasonable what you posted before is not
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Aug 11, 2016 18:01
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Luchadork posted:Oh man, I didn't notice this in the stream but apparently when you're down to 1 zed left, a marker will appear on the map to show you where they are. I've run into the "where the gently caress is this last crawler" thing on Hostile Ground a number of times, so this will be a godsend. Or alternately, on a custom map, when the last Zed is stuck outside the level geometry. 
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Aug 11, 2016 18:25
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turnways posted:It's rare for enemies to block in the lower difficulties (and still not all that common in the upper ones), and when they do block, the blocks don't absorb a lot of damage (an extra bullet or light attack IIRC). We've also lowered their average TTK (time to kill, basically how long it takes to mow them down) anyway so it's the about the same time/ammo requirement. Same with evade; it's rare but when it happens it's almost always not the one you're aiming at but the ones flanking it, so you'll see a group of crawlers spread out if you blow the head off the lead one. These aren't designed to make fights last longer or make them more difficult, just make them more interesting while keeping similar kill times. I really appreciate this and would tentatively follow you on those points. I think it could be a change for the better. If I am reading what you are saying correctly, you are trying to find ways to mix it up and keep it interesting without making anything less fun or harder. I see this as a big departure from the ideas behind the resistance update, where you decided to decrease difficulty in a very dull way; in a meta gameplay sense where the difficulty would partially come out of knowing which monsters are harder for which guns, and not out of the gameplay itself. I would've hoped that if you did intend to increase difficulty, you would've done it through a system like this, wherein if you want to make crawlers more "resistant" to shotgun damage you could make them more likely to spread out (instead of standing in a close group/line) upon one of them getting gunned down. Which is very similar to the example you gave of a system you actively implemented. That could be used to make the game more challenging while keeping the game interesting. My point is that compared to this line of thinking and design decisions the resistance update seems very... unimaginative and lazy. Trip implemented a number in a spreadsheet, then tried to lower our resistance to the change by lowering the resistance numbers. But they're still there, and Trip implementing interesting systems like this proves how unnecessary and unfun the Resistance system is. You talked about measurements Trip takes like TTK, which I think is a good thing to keep track of, but we didn't hear anything about this around the resistance update. If TRip wants good and accurate feedback we really need to know what Trip is thinking and how they see the problems and mechanics
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Aug 11, 2016 19:47
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The beta is live. 
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Aug 11, 2016 19:54
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Luchadork posted:The beta is live. Post me some stats.
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Aug 11, 2016 20:18
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Someone write an effort post on the new medic.
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Aug 11, 2016 20:41
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Luchadork posted:Oh man, I didn't notice this in the stream but apparently when you're down to 1 zed left, a marker will appear on the map to show you where they are. I've run into the "where the gently caress is this last crawler" thing on Hostile Ground a number of times, so this will be a godsend. A legitimate good cool thing. Turnways explanation of intention of dodges/blocks sounds nice, but I'm sure I'm not alone in not having much optimism beyond "I'll believe it when it happens" with the track record of being assured up and down how great the idea is, how intuitive it will be, and something something internal testing. Even if i expect Turn really wants it to play out in the cool given example way. I would be less worried about the execution of the the concept itself less if it was a guarantee every headshot to a gorefast was a killshot, though Having trash decide to get dodgey when you still require twice the accuracy as in the past to double tap their skull really, REALLY does not sound like "Same time to kill", except in spreadsheets and pro MLG never misses a shot circumstances.If this were the old days where every single T1 was guaranteed a one shot one kill headshot on trash on all difficulties, I'd be all over this idea with a lot of enthusiasm. But keeping resistances in place (Claiming 'they are essentially removed' and the passive aggressive patch notes about them are still pretty unpleasant), adding extra dodging, assorted nerf to class damage being frequent. All these ways of making it harder to kill than before... and then saying "Oh but the TTK won't go up! We swear!" Yeah. what?  Even if the intention was to keep the TTK the same, hard to imagine that in practice without a lot of buffs to the average player capability to compensate. Outside of crack teams of prostars killing and kiting things with their eyes closed as the baseline. Section Z fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Aug 11, 2016 |
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Aug 11, 2016 21:26
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My understanding, based on patchnotes: Scrake and Pound durability down, due to health scaling decreases and resistance decreases. Essentially all other enemy health and resistances values unchanged. Bloats less vulnerable to fire. Select weapon damage increases. Do breakpoints change? I dunno. Preliminary verdict: seems like net Zed durability is up. Reports that SWAT is profoundly mediocre.
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Aug 11, 2016 21:32
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Preliminary verdict: seems like net Zed durability is up. Reports that SWAT is profoundly mediocre. All of my hopes for SWAT were tempered by the inevitability they would not have anything that can one pop trash skulls, even before the whole resistances thing I know that the Medic SMG is great cool good, even without the medic dart. But every time I ever used it way back, I was basically asking myself "Why aren't I just using a Varmint rifle?" because twice the clip size does not feel very satisfying when you need twice the hits to kill anyways. Is their grenade any good? Or is it another case of watching a whole crowd of clots survive and a raged fleshpound evading the blast radius at the last?
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Aug 11, 2016 21:45
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I just did a quick Short/Normal solo game as SWAT. I mean, it's tough to tell anything at level 0 but so far his weapons seem fine. I could definitely see the SMGs making good off-perk weapons. There's a ton of little changes all over though, from menus to animations to sounds and most of them seem good. The Wilkes armor looks cool but I suspect it's going to be armies of Wilkes running around for a long while now. Going to play some more later after eats, but I mean right now it doesn't seem like anything is profoundly broken.
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Aug 11, 2016 21:52
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I'm cautiously optimistic about this update so far. Several of the changes look really good, to the point were I'm interested in playing to see if they didn't screw it up.
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Aug 11, 2016 22:54
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Maybe the Kriss is a dumb bad gun IRL but it's got a great kick and a great sound in this game. The new Fleshpound voice is kind of freaky. Going to try Medic next and see how badly he's hosed. Also they made some changes to Volter Manor. The piano in the bedroom has been turned around!
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Aug 11, 2016 23:25
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Man no idea how this holds up outside of hard but those flashbangs trivialize scrakes, pop one then everyone dumps into the head.
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Aug 11, 2016 23:31
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Drakes posted:Man no idea how this holds up outside of hard but those flashbangs trivialize scrakes, pop one then everyone dumps into the head. That's been my experience as well, and it's double-hosed now since everyone is playing SWAT. Oh, also so far I like the "zed blocking" mechanic. It doesn't make them harder to kill, but it does make you approach how you engage them a little differently. We'll see if it gets old quickly, though.
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Aug 11, 2016 23:34
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Luchadork posted:That's been my experience as well, and it's double-hosed now since everyone is playing SWAT. I loving guarantee they will nerf any stunlocks on big zeds.
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Aug 12, 2016 00:16
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Early Medic report: As someone who focuses on healing when I play Medic (go figure), I really really like the "healer" side of the new Medic tree. The perk that heals you when you heal others is especially useful. I don't like that the other side of the tree is "combat medic" though, because I'm afraid that's going to lead to a lot of assholes playing medic as a weak commando instead of doing their goddamn job. I miss the armor repair perk but I guess Support's new supplier perk kind of fills in for it. OneThousandMonkeys posted:I loving guarantee they will nerf any stunlocks on big zeds. BUG FIX: Flashbangs now stun players instead of zeds.
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Aug 12, 2016 00:19
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Husks and Sirens on Suicidal are still entirely too durable. Love it when Sirens walk off a direct hit from the grenade launcher.
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Aug 12, 2016 00:21
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SWAT trip report : So far I am actually enjoying it, it feels really satisfying. All the guns are good, I love that they all have selective fire modes. My only real complaint so far right now is I wish the MP5 had an option for an RDS like all the other guns have. Other than that, I'm lv 3 and its fun. Skoll fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Aug 12, 2016 |
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Aug 12, 2016 01:29
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Skoll posted:SWAT trip report : Oh hey, did you ever get your forums account sorted out? The answer I got at the time was "can't do anything until it's all back up and running; we'll get captcha up soon, try that and see."
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Aug 12, 2016 02:31
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And thanks guys, glad I can help communicate stuff and get some decent feedback to pass along. What do you think of the new Trader? We swapped sides based on a lot of focus testing that had folks looking on the left for player inventory / right for shop (pretty standard in games) and coupled with the time limit was creating a lot of initial frustration and confusion, and more importantly it reduces mouse movement for common actions by a ton, esp. with the new dedicated Sell/Buy buttons.
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Aug 12, 2016 02:35
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turnways posted:Oh hey, did you ever get your forums account sorted out? The answer I got at the time was "can't do anything until it's all back up and running; we'll get captcha up soon, try that and see." Hey thanks for checking up on it. Yeah, I did. Your entire forum redo seems to have fixed it for me and I was able to shitpost some. turnways posted:And thanks guys, glad I can help communicate stuff and get some decent feedback to pass along. What do you think of the new Trader? We swapped sides based on a lot of focus testing that had folks looking on the left for player inventory / right for shop (pretty standard in games) and coupled with the time limit was creating a lot of initial frustration and confusion, and more importantly it reduces mouse movement for common actions by a ton, esp. with the new dedicated Sell/Buy buttons. I like the new trader a lot. It was confusing at first because hey, new, but it's a shitload more efficent. Also, I just did Infernal Realms on Normal.  @ six SWATs chasing down Patriarch and just absolutely murder loving him with Kriss Vectors and P90s. It was nuts.
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Aug 12, 2016 02:39
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Tried out the new Support overhaul and holy gently caress is the AA fun now that it can carry more ammo.  turnways posted:And thanks guys, glad I can help communicate stuff and get some decent feedback to pass along. What do you think of the new Trader? We swapped sides based on a lot of focus testing that had folks looking on the left for player inventory / right for shop (pretty standard in games) and coupled with the time limit was creating a lot of initial frustration and confusion, and more importantly it reduces mouse movement for common actions by a ton, esp. with the new dedicated Sell/Buy buttons. Overall I like it, but I'm still getting used to it too. Like, I keep looking in the old spot for some stuff. Skoll posted:Also, I just did Infernal Realms on Normal. lol, same. Poor fucker never even had a chance to run and heal.
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Aug 12, 2016 02:44
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I feel like SWAT was made solely to address survivability issues with the Commando. It's essentially the same role but at shorter distance and a lot more tankier. Once I 25 it I think I will probably be running the P90 and the AK or the Demo's M4. My only criticism with the M4 203 is that recoil seems to put it all over the place and you can't selective fire it. Maybe a workaround would be Alt Fire switches from Full Auto to Semi and G fires the 203? I know people will go, "zomg just controll your bursts", but I prefer the accuracy of well placed shots to spazzing bullets all over the place especially when the ammo pool for the M4 isn't great to begin with. Also, since the M4 is back for Demo, does that mean we have a chance of it returning for the Commando? I actually liked it a lot in KF 1 even though most people poo poo on it.
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Aug 12, 2016 02:50
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http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=702207621 Updated my guide for the new resistances and to include SWAT weapons. Major changes are that the Scrake now takes normal damage from assault rifles and SMGs, the Siren takes bonus damage from specifically the double barrel, and Bloats now take less damage from specifically fire. Besides the minor Bloat damage resistance buff, it's nothing but reducing damage resistances of enemies that seemed too unnecessarily tanky.
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Aug 12, 2016 02:53
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I feel Tripwire doesn't understand that its ok for there to be a power creep in the favor of the player. At the end of the day, for what purpose do we play a game like KF? To enjoy ourselves, the head popping simulator quote was exactly what I feel most of us wanted. Was sharp and zerker OP as gently caress in KF1? Yes, did it matter? No.
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Aug 12, 2016 02:56
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