Recoome posted:

oh wait sorry the ALP are torture apologists as well woooooops

EvilElmo posted:

Took 3 posts.


I'm not sure how it's unfair. Both systems have their benefits, both systems will have "losers". In this result, it will get rid of 3 racists, a bigot and two nuts. The Greens should rejoice. You'll get rid of Rhiannon early and pick up another Senator.

Senate Reforms are the reason we got 2/4 racists in the Senate. I said they were poo poo, they are poo poo. I'm not sure how many times I need to keep posting this. One day you might all admit the Senate reforms were rushed, poo poo policy and not well thought through. But I guess you all still defend voting down the ETS..

EvilElmo posted:

Was I wrong though?

I'll post something about whatever the issue that's being discussed, Medicare, taxation, greyhounds.. whatever.

A few posts later "somethingsomething torture! ALP SCUM!".

Every.

Single.

Time.

Recoome posted:

How do you feel about the current situation regarding the torture of refugees? Do you think the ALP is doing enough regarding this issue?

EvilElmo posted:

I'm not sure how it's unfair. Both systems have their benefits, both systems will have "losers". In this result, it will get rid of 3 racists, a bigot and two nuts. The Greens should rejoice. You'll get rid of Rhiannon early and pick up another Senator.

quote:

Senate Reforms are the reason we got 2/4 racists in the Senate. I said they were poo poo, they are poo poo. I'm not sure how many times I need to keep posting this. One day you might all admit the Senate reforms were rushed, poo poo policy and not well thought through.

quote:

But I guess you all still defend voting down the ETS..

Recoome posted:

lmao yep this is the only reason why we got the One Nation people

Solemn Sloth posted:

A man walks into a bar, and sits down. He starts a conversation with an old guy next to him. The old guy has obviously had a few. He says to the man:

"You see that dock out there? Built it myself, hand crafted each piece, and it's the best dock in town! But do they call me 'McGregor the dock builder'? No!"

"And you see that bridge over there? I built that, took me two months, through rain and sleet but do they call me 'McGregor the bridge builder'? No!"

"And you see that pier over there, I built that, best pier in the county! But do they call me 'McGregor the pier builder'? No!"

The old guy looks around, and makes sure that nobody is listening, and leans to the man, and he says:

"but you gently caress one sheep..."

EvilElmo posted:

Like, no it really is.

We got 2 from the DD because of the smaller quota. Then another 2 from the Senate reforms.

quote:

It would appear you want all 4 of the One Nation Senators to run out the full 6 years though.

Doctor Spaceman posted:

Antony Green's got an article on it.

I know you said they were poo poo before the election, but given we've actually got the results it's an opportunity to look at the specific effects. For example, Singh's election in Tasmania probably wouldn't have happened without BtL voting being made significantly easier. Did too many votes exhaust? Was there an unacceptable increase in informal votes? If you want to complain about the system you've got actual information.

I think there are more racists in the Senate than that too.

I don't.

EvilElmo posted:

Interesting article, will read on a not-Friday night. But there will be winners and losers, would I be on board if it wasn't going to result with 3 One Nation Senators staying full term? Maybe.

CROWS EVERYWHERE posted:

there are New Zealanders in this thread

Recoome posted:

I too blame The ALP™ at every opportunity for everything ever

Big Willy Style posted:

EE a few months ago im pretty sure you were saying that the Senate reforms would kill minor parties now you're saying its responsible for the election of minor parties while ignoring the results of the DD. Are you OK m8?

Doctor Spaceman posted:

(In case you missed my previous post, given the parallel responses) Aside from Hanson the ONP Senators got 11th (WA), 11th (NSW) and 12th (Queensland), so I think it's unlikely they'd get full terms unless you literally pull them out of the hat.

E: If you want more reading, The Conversation had a piece on how many votes exhausted and a breakdown of some examples.

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Democracy is good unless it does something I don't like.

Maybe there would be less support for racist minor parties if both majors hadn't supported their racist policies for the last two decades?

EvilElmo posted:

Was I wrong though?

I'll post something about whatever the issue that's being discussed, Medicare, taxation, greyhounds.. whatever.

A few posts later "somethingsomething torture! ALP SCUM!".

Every.

Single.

Time.

Endman posted:

That's because it's difficult to move past supporting the offshore detention of refugees, an approach that has led to the abuse of children, regardless of what your other policies are.

Take the Greens you get annoyed about so much. I agree with most of their policies, it's why I'm a member, but if one day RDN turned around at National Conference and said "oh hey child abuse is fine let's fund it", I'd quit in a heartbeat.

There are just some issues you can't, and it's morally unconscionable to, move past.

EvilElmo posted:

Correct, I and many other people commented that this would be the death of minor parties. The Greens had effectively pulled up the ladder behind them. As it turns out, it's had the opposite effect. The Green vote flatlined and hasn't gained any ground in the Senate (losing a senator in the process). People have instead decided to put their vote towards fringe parties where before they would have voted #1 for a major and we would have got a balanced, normal, workable Senate. This Senate will be difficult for anyone to work through and legislation does need to be passed, but at what cost? Do we want a budget through in return for a Senate inquiry into Islam?

Solemn Sloth posted:

A man walks into a bar, and sits down. He starts a conversation with an old guy next to him. The old guy has obviously had a few. He says to the man:

"You see that dock out there? Built it myself, hand crafted each piece, and it's the best dock in town! But do they call me 'McGregor the dock builder'? No!"

"And you see that bridge over there? I built that, took me two months, through rain and sleet but do they call me 'McGregor the bridge builder'? No!"

"And you see that pier over there, I built that, best pier in the county! But do they call me 'McGregor the pier builder'? No!"

The old guy looks around, and makes sure that nobody is listening, and leans to the man, and he says:

"but you gently caress one sheep..."

EvilElmo posted:

Big Willy Style posted:

EE a few months ago im pretty sure you were saying that the Senate reforms would kill minor parties now you're saying its responsible for the election of minor parties while ignoring the results of the DD. Are you OK m8?

UPF Facebook Page posted:

***Rampant Islamic terrorism in the last month throughout Europe, hundreds of deaths, including pregnant women and children - Media: "It's not that bad, more refugees. we'll be right."
***Australian man raided and arrested for having suspicious documents - Media: "Right-wing terror threat! Attack imminent! Beware the far-right extremists!"
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out who owns the media and what their goal is.

quote:

A shout out to all patriotic Australians to stand together united against the traitorous unwashed scumbag leftards.
They have decided to call us out for a second round, so let’s face off again.
Once again these moronic pimples on society are rallying against our democratically elected senator Hanson.
TBC WA would like to see all proud West Aussies turn out for this event without exception.

quote:

After our first anti-Hanson speakout, join United Against Bigotry and Racism for round two! Let's take to the streets to say no Pauline Hanson's vile racism, say no to the United Patriots Front, the True Blue Crew and Reclaim Australia, and stand in solidarity with the Muslim community.

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

But we need to ignore it so that we can win elections, think of all the Australians being harmed by Liberal policy!

*Fails to win an election anyway*

quote:

The Electoral Act requires the AEC to conduct a "Section 282 recount" to simulate which Senators would have filled the first six places at a half-Senate election based on the same votes, as an alternative to using the order-of-election method. However there is no requirement that the Senate use the recount to decide the order. While the Senate affirmed in both 1998 and 2010 that the recount should be used, those decisions were not binding on the current Senate, and were [not binding] under the old system anyway.

It happens that both major parties benefit from the agreement. Senators Lee Rhiannon (Greens NSW) and Derryn Hinch (Vic) are both given three year terms while Scott Ryan (Liberal, Victoria) and Deborah O'Neill (Labor, NSW) will not have to look for work again until at least 2022 (unless there is another double dissolution). This difference had previously been found by Grahame Bowland and the AEC has advised the Clerk of the Senate that Rhiannon and Hinch would get six-year terms if the Section 282 recount was the deciding factor.

quote:

I'll use Rhiannon's case as an example. Her primary vote was 0.947 quotas (including 1 Greens ticket votes). Because she was short of a quota on primary votes, she had to wait until the cascading surpluses at the start of the count elected eight major party candidates. But had she polled a quota in her own right (just another 0.41% of the primary vote) she would have been elected third and won a six-year term.

On the other side of that coin, Jacqui Lambie polled a primary vote of 1.068 quotas in her own right (including ticket votes). This meant Lambie was elected fourth by the order-of-election method, and therefore gets a six-year term. Yet the massive surpluses of the Tasmanian major party ticket leaders Abetz and Urquhart actually meant that seven Senators who won either on primaries or on cascading surpluses had more "support" than Lambie did. Thus, as a sign of her support relative to these major party candidates, one might say that her having polled a DD quota on primaries was far from conclusive.
...
The order of election system is also absurdly granular. In Tasmania the two major parties have about the same vote (Labor 33.6 Liberal 32.5) and get two six-year terms apiece. But this would also happen if the figures were Labor 46 Liberal 20, or the other way around.

quote:

There are issues, however, and a lot of them are created by the unexpected interface between the new Senate system and Section 282, which was written under a different system. Because the government left the implementation of Senate reform very late in its previous term (whether to avoid provoking the non-Green crossbench, in the hope of bipartisan support or simply because it was distracted by leadership fighting) a number of finer details were glossed over for the first run of the new system. The matter of the fairest term-allocation system, which had long been on the back-burner anyway, was one that was so obscure that it wasn't even on most psephologists' shopping lists for things to fix for the new system.

quote:

That's not to say S 282 is less fair than the order-of-election system. I think it's still fairer - just that it's hardly brilliant and it is worth a serious think about whether there could be a better approach than either for the new voting system.

There are also many ambiguities in applying S 282 to the new system. Some of these existed in the old system as well (The AEC recommended fixing them in 2011 but it never happened).

quote:

The AFP this week raided the Lakemba family day care businesses of brothers Mohammad and Ibrahim Omar, aged 27 and 25, over more than $27 million in Commonwealth childcare benefits and rebates claimed since 2012 by the nearly 600 home providers of family day care on their books.

starkebn posted:

It's there an article someone can point me too that discusses why each state has 12 senators and what the pro and con arguments are? It's not an intuitive way for the system to be set up.

EvilElmo posted:

Greens policy on this issue is so successful, they lost ground at this election.

Oh.