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doverhog posted:Perhaps you would like to give a definitive list of which countries are included in "Western Europe" in this context. 'From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic...'
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Aug 11, 2016 17:58
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Kassad posted:I'm pretty sure they're both racist in a very white way, actually. white is such an american term to use. Explain what that even means buddy
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Aug 11, 2016 18:00
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khwarezm posted:I don't think its a good idea to say there's any kind of privilege difference between Western Europe and America.
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Aug 11, 2016 18:04
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Kassad posted:I'm pretty sure they're both racist in a very white way, actually. Only if you only count white people as European or American, which is pretty racist.
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Aug 11, 2016 18:05
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khwarezm posted:'From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic...' That would be neat and clean, but sadly would also, for example, put Greece in the group with the US, while leaving Finland and Sweden out.
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Aug 11, 2016 18:05
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doverhog posted:That would be neat and clean, but sadly would also, for example, put Greece in the group with the US, while leaving Finland and Sweden out. Well, we'll modify it to kick out the Greeks and include Scandinavia. Although I always got the impression that Scandinavia was on the 'right' side of the wall as articulated by Churchill.
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Aug 11, 2016 18:09
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Churchill clearly knew what he was talking about. Just look at how neatly the line severs the productive Northern Italians from the feckless southerners.
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Aug 11, 2016 18:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:We were talking about Europe in general. Also, I was specifically thinking in terms of cultural power, in which case I don't think there's any argument for America not being in a category of its own. I mean, the actual specific context is literally a discussion forum based in America, with a primarily American user base, whose non-American users are integrated enough into American culture to be able to discuss a wide variety of topics, many/most of them being about American politics or cultural products. All because of a familiarity with America born out of being inundated in American culture since we were kids. I'm definitely not a "without us you'd all be speaking German" kind of American (you'd all be speaking Russian if anything), but American leadership and the NATO framework were pretty significant building blocks in creating a united Europe. It's true that most Europeans probably have a better understanding of the US than Americans do of Europe, but I don't see how European dependence on the US actually makes us less qualified to discuss Europe than if the US and EU were actually equals with a more distant relationship.
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Aug 11, 2016 18:41
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Sinteres posted:I'm definitely not a "without us you'd all be speaking German" kind of American (you'd all be speaking Russian if anything), but American leadership and the NATO framework were pretty significant building blocks in creating a united Europe. It's true that most Europeans probably have a better understanding of the US than Americans do of Europe, but I don't see how European dependence on the US actually makes us less qualified to discuss Europe than if the US and EU were actually equals with a more distant relationship.
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Aug 11, 2016 19:04
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Americans are the worst because of <stuff that happens in Canada>, <stuff that happens in Mexico>, <stuff that happens in Venezuela>, <stuff that happens in Chile>.
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Aug 11, 2016 19:08
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A Buttery Pastry posted:My argument was primarily about the emotional impact of people conflating countries, explaining why it might be particularly irksome when Americans do it (hence people reacting strongly to an argument like "Look how racist Europe is, celebrating black face Christmas"), not about whether that means Americans are qualified to discuss things or not. It also doesn't have anything to do with how dependent Europe is on the US or not, I doubt there's any country where the people don't care at all if you consistently mix them up with everyone else in their immediate neighborhood. That's fair, and I agree that Europe isn't remotely homogeneous. That chart about opinions on immigration showed that there are massive differences in opinion even among the big three countries. I just had a visceral reaction against the American privilege thing when the issue was really ignorance. The people who blame Europeans when terrorist attacks happen are really bad about lumping Europe together as a whole too.
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Aug 11, 2016 19:19
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Sinteres posted:I just had a visceral reaction against the American privilege thing when the issue was really ignorance. Just to be clear, because this discussion is going on long enough that people might get the wrong idea; I'm not trying to equate this form of privilege with what for example a white man would have vs. a black man or a white woman, in scale or in kind. I think it's a legitimate issue, but probably mostly on a more abstract collective level, where for example race (and racism) can be a defining feature on an individual level on top of being crippling on a collective level.
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Aug 11, 2016 19:58
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Speaking of racism in Europe,quote:German intelligence services have evidence that “hit squads” from the Islamic State terror group have infiltrated the country disguised as refugees, the deputy head of Bavaria’s spy agency told the BBC Thursday. This, uh, sounds kinda bad? Is politico.eu a reliable news site?
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Aug 11, 2016 20:10
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waitwhatno posted:Bullshit. This is a tactic used to deflect criticism, it does not apply when the subject of the discussion is literally "who has the biggest ethnic integrating dick?". It's totally legitimate to bring up failures from both sides in such a discussion and compare them. It is not actually appropriate to compare police forces with Neo-Nazis, no. As an example why : our Neo-Nazis probably kill fewer people than your police forces do.
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Aug 11, 2016 20:37
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Isn't privilege and ignorance being closely tied together a big part of the whole concept? As in, privilege shields your ignorance from the reality others face, and it is essentially consequence free because of your privilege. Power imbalance aside, I think the status of Europe as both a political entity and aspirational goal in the form of the EU while at the same time remaining a collection of distinct and often fractious countries with their own languages and cultures is just more complicated and takes more effort to understand than the US. Anyway, I agree with the broader point you were making. Rappaport posted:Speaking of racism in Europe, It would be surprising at this point if it's not true to some extent given the stated motive and opportunity. Of course they have every reason to exaggerate, but so far people downplaying the threat posed by ISIS both in the Middle East two or three years ago and in Europe this past year have mostly ended up looking pretty dumb. It's not existential or anything, but future planned attacks are certainly reasonable to expect.
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Aug 11, 2016 20:38
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Rappaport posted:Speaking of racism in Europe, Merci Merkel
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Aug 11, 2016 21:21
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Rappaport posted:Speaking of racism in Europe, of course not. to suggest any terrorists would use Merkels open borders to enter Europe is racist. at least that's what people said six+ months ago. now they say please correct your opinion or you might experience consequences, at least in germany.
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Aug 12, 2016 00:23
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If you guys were alive in the Cold War you'd be trying to expand the Berlin Wall to prevent commie agents from slipping past.
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Aug 12, 2016 02:29
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Velkest posted:of course not. to suggest any terrorists would use Merkels open borders to enter Europe is racist. Which people said that?
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Aug 12, 2016 03:01
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Velkest posted:of course not. to suggest any terrorists would use Merkels open borders to enter Europe is racist. Well no, but saying that we need to close all the borders, batten down the hatches, etc. because of terrorist attacks, that have so far pretty much entirely been perpetrated by people who are not in fact refugees, is a hysterical reaction at best. It's pretty much the same as Trump saying that "Mexicans are rapists, thieves ... and some I assume are good people!" and using that as argument to cut off any immigration from Mexico into the US. There's literally zero reason whatsoever (beyond "common sense") to think that ISIS and other assorted loons would find it harder to perpetrate attacks if the borders were closed, given that they haven't really even used the fact that the borders are open right now in any of their attacks so far. I mean I'm sure it would marginally inconvenience them, but probably much less than millions of other people. And yeah I know it's stupid strawman but I can't help myself, and I've heard that same sort of poo poo said earnestly in person before.
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Aug 12, 2016 03:44
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Friendly Humour posted:Which people said that? "Questioning the motives of refugees is racism", the Minister of Interior of Finland, summer 2015.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:07
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YF-23 posted:If you guys were alive in the Cold War you'd be trying to expand the Berlin Wall to prevent commie agents from slipping past. Let me tell you about the Rasterfahndung and the RAF.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:18
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America already has walls, it's called the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans. edit: and Britain has the Channel.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:27
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GaussianCopula posted:Let me tell you about the Rasterfahndung and the RAF. Yes, and would you build a wall across the border with East Germany and stop taking in East Germans to West Germany because of it?
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Aug 12, 2016 10:37
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YF-23 posted:Yes, and would you build a wall across the border with East Germany and stop taking in East Germans to West Germany because of it? Can't let those RAF bastards cross the wall into West Germany... hang on a minute.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:46
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Private Speech posted:Well no, but saying that we need to close all the borders, batten down the hatches, etc. because of terrorist attacks, that have so far pretty much entirely been perpetrated by people who are not in fact refugees, is a hysterical reaction at best. Brussels and Paris attacks were perpetrated in large part by people who had been fighting in Syria. They had to return somehow and it is safe to assume that open borders made it easier for them. Also the Ansbach bombing was perpetrated by a refugee from Syria. I'm not advocating for closing the borders for refugees, I'm just pointing out how bullshit your claim is that there's "literally zero reason whatsoever" to think that open borders help ISIS operate.
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Aug 12, 2016 11:01
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Rappaport posted:"Questioning the motives of refugees is racism", the Minister of Interior of Finland, summer 2015. Cool, although what he actually said was in response to the Finns party secretary's comments that "economic surfers must be deported immidiately". Which is completely true, calling people fleeing war and persecution economic parasites is indeed racist. What I don't really get is how the Ligurs and Velkests of the world rationalise the fact that they're doing exactly what Daesh wants when they call for borders to be closed and muslims to be deported. You do realise the whole point of the terrorism campaign in Europe is to turn Europe against the refugees and foster hatred and mistrust against Muslims?
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Aug 12, 2016 11:03
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Friendly Humour posted:What I don't really get is how the Ligurs and Velkests of the world rationalise the fact that they're doing exactly what Daesh wants when they call for borders to be closed and muslims to be deported. You do realise the whole point of the terrorism campaign in Europe is to turn Europe against the refugees and foster hatred and mistrust against Muslims? I don't think they particularly care.
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Aug 12, 2016 11:08
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Friendly Humour posted:
Yeah that would be a great change from the present situation
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Aug 12, 2016 11:21
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Tesseraction posted:Way I see it if we could arbitrarily place the Jewish diaspora in Palestine and say "now it's Israel" we can gut out a large part of... let's say Austria there's nothing of worth there... and make it New Syria. If Europeans placed the Jewish diaspora anywhere it was up in smoke, so I'm not sure if your analogy is a very good fit. waitwhatno posted:lmao, some drunk American stumbling into the thread and rambling about immigrant paradise America only to be shut down by freaking switzerland. quote:Permanent residents by nationality. In 2013 there were a total of 1,937,447 permanent residents (23.8% of the total population of 8.14 million) in Switzerland. The majority (1.65 million, 85% of the total and 20.2% of the total) came from Europe. quote:overall I have the impression that both continents are equally bad at integration. This isn't really true and it's not true because America has had to integrate massive waves of new immigrant populations over its history and Europeans nations as a whole have not.
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Aug 12, 2016 12:12
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Tic, stop agreeing with me.
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Aug 12, 2016 12:15
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The Insect Court posted:If Europeans placed the Jewish diaspora anywhere it was up in smoke, so I'm not sure if your analogy is a very good fit. Someone doesn't remember who owned Palestine at the time. 
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Aug 12, 2016 12:15
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Doctor Malaver posted:Brussels and Paris attacks were perpetrated in large part by people who had been fighting in Syria. They had to return somehow and it is safe to assume that open borders made it easier for them. No, it's not because they could have gotten on the first plane out of Syria with their EU passports.
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Aug 12, 2016 12:24
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Cerebral Bore posted:No, it's not because they could have gotten on the first plane out of Syria with their EU passports. Why didn't they do that, then?
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Aug 12, 2016 12:50
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Doctor Malaver posted:Brussels and Paris attacks were perpetrated in large part by people who had been fighting in Syria. They had to return somehow and it is safe to assume that open borders made it easier for them. Also the Ansbach bombing was perpetrated by a refugee from Syria. You mean the Paris attack where they planted refugee documentation, or the Brussels bombings, whose perpetrators, to quote the spiegel, "have all been raised in Belgium"? I mean yeah some of them did travel to Syria but unless you think we have open borders with Syria (spoilers: we don't) or are trying to claim they came in as refugees, well, I dunno. Fair enough about the Ansbach bombing though, guess you do get one refugee-terrorist there.
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Aug 12, 2016 12:58
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mobby_6kl posted:Why didn't they do that, then? Not many planes coming out of rebel-held territory, for one.
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Aug 12, 2016 13:12
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mobby_6kl posted:Why didn't they do that, then? Most of them did get back to Europe through regular travel. What you should ask yourself is why a few registered as refugees even though they didn't have to. This would suggest an ulterior motive, and since we literally know that Daesh really wants to stop people fleeing the middle east from their own publications, it shouldn't be very hard to put two and two together. Doing this, however, would require the far-right to acknowledge that they're willingly playing right into the hands of ISIS, and therefore it isn't really done.
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Aug 12, 2016 13:16
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Cerebral Bore posted:Doing this, however, would require the far-right to acknowledge that they're willingly playing right into the hands of ISIS, and therefore it isn't really done. We have always been at war with Westasia.
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Aug 12, 2016 13:19
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Friendly Humour posted:Cool, although what he actually said was in response to the Finns party secretary's comments that "economic surfers must be deported immidiately". Which is completely true, calling people fleeing war and persecution economic parasites is indeed racist. I do think there's something to this argument, but it's really loving cynical the way the open borders types transitioned seamlessly from "the refugees are peace-loving people who'd obviously never hurt us, how dare you do a racism by warning that their presence may be a risk?" to "seriously guys, these refugees are a ticking time bomb that might go off any second now if we offend them and they turn to ISIS."
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Aug 12, 2016 13:59
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The Insect Court posted:America has had to integrate massive waves of new immigrant populations over its history and Europeans nations as a whole have not. Hahaha
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Aug 12, 2016 14:11
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