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People should be free to wear what they want.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:27
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Sinteres posted:It shouldn't be outlawed period, but it should be stigmatized as an instrument of women's oppression. It shouldn't be, because that's not what it is.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:28
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fishmech posted:It shouldn't be, because that's not what it is. I'd like to hear what it really is please.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:31
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People should not be stigmatised for their clothing.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:32
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Sinteres posted:It shouldn't be outlawed period, but it should be stigmatized as an instrument of women's oppression. I imagine most of us agree that Christian practices that oppress women should be called out, but liberals don't know what to do anymore when disadvantaged minority groups also act as oppressors, so they construct bullshit narratives about the liberation from male gaze the burka offers the women who obviously choose to wear it on their own without any hint of coercion. move them goalposts chugga chugga chugga How about we look at the actual abuse cases instead of just oppressing them further for following a religion by "stigmatizing" them. You can't just lump them all under one banner, I'm not going to say that all priests should be shunned from society because of the acts of horrible rapists. EDIT: YF-23 posted:People should not be stigmatised for their clothing. but I heard it's unhygienic, and why would people looking for any way to legitimize their hate lie and/or exaggerate? Yinlock fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Aug 12, 2016 |
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Aug 12, 2016 21:33
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Riso posted:I'd like to hear what it really is please. A fashion choice. Because it always has been the hallmark of free and individual spirits to use clothings to turn themselves into shapeless birth-machines as it pleases their male overlords. Also, the hard left likes burkas, because even though they love harping about structural violence, they prefer to hate the way of Western progress,that somehow makes do without 19th century Marxist esoterism. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Aug 12, 2016 |
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Aug 12, 2016 21:40
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The slavish new belief that liberalism means embracing any practice by anyone who isn't in your privileged ingroup, even if the practice itself is inherently illiberal, is pathetic.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:42
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Yeah, the "new" liberal belief that people should be free to wear what they want.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:43
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Of course you know that one of the problems with the burqa is that many women aren't wearing them by choice.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:45
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Yes, I never said that's not a problem, nor am I denying there's Muslim women living in bloody oppression because of their gender. That has nothing to do with stigmatising people for what they wear.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:46
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Should yarmulkes be banned?
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Aug 12, 2016 21:48
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YF-23 posted:Yes, I never said that's not a problem, nor am I denying there's Muslim women living in bloody oppression because of their gender. That has nothing to do with stigmatising people for what they wear. It will then shock you to hear, that in many European countries you're being stigmatised for wearing the perfectly acceptable swastika, because you convey a very nasty message by doing so.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:48
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You'll be stigmatised for being a nazi, yes.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:48
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Nitrousoxide posted:Should yarmulkes be banned? In practice that's already happening since it's impossible to wear them in parts of Europe without fear at this point.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:49
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Riso posted:Let's be honest here. Breaking news: white people retarded, claims local goon  put woman in box, roll box into the sea and throw her out some distance from the beach
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Aug 12, 2016 21:49
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YF-23 posted:You'll be stigmatised for being a nazi, yes. And by wearing a burka you'll be stigmatized for being a - although self-loathing - misogynist. But even a Jew would be stigmatised for wearing a swastika in certain countries, so there you go.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:52
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Einbauschrank posted:And by wearing a burka you'll be stigmatized for being a - although self-loathing - misogynist. This does not follow.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:53
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YF-23 posted:This does not follow. Where did you get lost?
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Aug 12, 2016 21:56
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In the part where you made a blanket statement about everyone wearing a burka being by definition misogynist without really backing it up with anything.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:57
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YF-23 posted:In the part where you made a blanket statement about everyone wearing a burka being by definition misogynist without really backing it up with anything. Do you think FGM is inherently misogynistic or a hip new body modification that provides people with a sense of cultural identity?
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Aug 12, 2016 21:58
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Riso posted:I'd like to hear what it really is please. It's just clothing. Your mom's probably worn something uglier while swimming. Sinteres posted:Of course you know that one of the problems with the burqa is that many women aren't wearing them by choice. So your solution is to forbid any woman to choose to wear them. Genius!
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Aug 12, 2016 22:00
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fishmech posted:So your solution is to forbid any woman to choose to wear them. Genius! Face covering in public actually is banned in France, and the European Court of Human Rights upheld it, so fortunately I'm not alone in thinking it shouldn't be worn. I said I don't favor a blanket ban though. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Aug 12, 2016 |
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Aug 12, 2016 22:02
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Sinteres posted:Do you think FGM is inherently misogynistic or a hip new body modification that provides people with a sense of cultural identity? That is a very bad analogy to make, and you should feel bad for making it, but sure, I'll bite. It's a body modification whose social implications are different depending on circumstances. FGM forced into children by their parents is the first, a hypothetical consenting adult freely choosing to undergo it for reasons unrelated to repression is the second.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:04
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YF-23 posted:In the part where you made a blanket statement about everyone wearing a burka being by definition misogynist without really backing it up with anything. It seemed rather obvious to me, but I aim to please. You know the reasoning behind hiding women from view but not men? It's because women are on the one hand evil temptresses and on the other hand because women are the property of a male. Either the father/next kin or the husband. So they have to hide themselves else they'd lure poor men into desiring them and causing property damage to another male. Or doesn't it strike you as worth mentioning that Muslim males don't feel the - oh so individual - need to turn themselves into a shapeless blob? But yeah, you're the guy who would have defended slavery because there were slaves who didn't mind.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:06
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What if someone just wants to wear a burka.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:07
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YF-23 posted:What if someone just wants to wear a burka. What if somebody doesn't mind being a slave, should we allow slavery?
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Aug 12, 2016 22:08
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These are not the same thing.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:09
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Sinteres posted:Face covering in public actually is banned in France, and the European Court of Human Rights upheld it, so fortunately I'm not alone in thinking it shouldn't be worn. Yes, France committed a a crime against human rights, and the ECHR was too chickenshit to rebuke them. It's literally doing the thing they claim to be against.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:09
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YF-23 posted:That is a very bad analogy to make, and you should feel bad for making it, but sure, I'll bite. It's a body modification whose social implications are different depending on circumstances. FGM forced into children by their parents is the first, a hypothetical consenting adult freely choosing to undergo it for reasons unrelated to repression is the second. They're both cultural expressions of misogyny, but sure I agree that they're not ethically equivalent and that FGM is practiced in fewer places. I just wanted to see if you'd be willing to condemn it, and the answer seems to be not really. Cultural relativism is a hell of a drug.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:11
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YF-23 posted:These are not the same thing. No two things are the same thing. In which way do you consider them to be so different that no comparison is possible?
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Aug 12, 2016 22:15
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Sinteres posted:They're both cultural expressions of misogyny, but sure I agree that they're not ethically equivalent and that FGM is practiced in fewer places. I just wanted to see if you'd be willing to condemn it, and the answer seems to be not really. Cultural relativism is a hell of a drug. If you took my post as a non-condemnation of FGM committed in circumstances other than those of completely free choice, you hosed up.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:15
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Einbauschrank posted:No two things are the same thing. In which way do you consider them to be so different that no comparison is possible? In that slavery inherently means you lose freedom of choice and in that the burka is an article of clothing.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:20
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YF-23 posted:If you took my post as a non-condemnation of FGM committed in circumstances other than those of completely free choice, you hosed up. Yeah, but if a poor worker is forced to sell his labour due to social conditions and him not realizing that he's being played, then the left is all up and in rage. Seem like structural violence only exists if it happens within the borders of the free world. If a repressive, misogynist society leads to women "voluntarily" wearing demeaning slave clothes, the salon left will defend their right to be subjugated to the hilt, if only to spite the evil West. YF-23 posted:In that slavery inherently means you lose freedom of choice and in that the burka is an article of clothing. Because in Arab society women that accept their place have all the choices that men have. Obviously.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:24
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I am not talking about women "voluntarily" wearing the burka, I'm talking about women voluntarily wearing the burka.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:25
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YF-23 posted:I am not talking about women "voluntarily" wearing the burka, I'm talking about women voluntarily wearing the burka. I am talking about people being voluntarily slaves, not "voluntarily".
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Aug 12, 2016 22:29
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I was too, when I responded to you wrt differences between slavery and the burka.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:32
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it's always funny when the mask falls off of supposed democrats who harp on about freedom of expression but cant deal with women who choose to wear an extra bit of cloth that in no way affects them.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:36
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YF-23 posted:I was too, when I responded to you wrt differences between slavery and the burka. Ok, I get you wrt slavery. Doesn't change my question: Why should slavery be shunned if there are people who don't object to being slaves, why should swastikas be forbidden but burkas be allowed and why is structural violence not a problem if it originates from a non-Western culture?
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Aug 12, 2016 22:37
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Somewhat paradoxically, I see some parallels between how society sees women who wear burquas and prostitutes. Society - "It should be illegal. It's demeaning to women and treats them as objects that men can own. No little girl ever wished to (be a prostitute / go around in a mini-tent)" Woman* - "Go to hell, this is my choice" * - not every woman
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Aug 12, 2016 22:38
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Einbauschrank posted:Ok, I get you wrt slavery. Doesn't change my question: Why should slavery be shunned if there are people who don't object to being slaves, why should swastikas be forbidden but burkas be allowed and why is structural violence not a problem if it originates from a non-Western culture? because slavery causes untold death and suffering to people and swastikas is the political symbol of a genocidal mass murderer that is not at all the same thing as a woman choosing to wear an extra bit of cloth because of her religious beliefs and hasn't harmed anyone? How is this hard for you to understand?
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Aug 12, 2016 22:40
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