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Mr. Glum posted:One of the only things I remember about Lisey's story is when the baddie destroys her boob with a can opener.  I must admit, that wasn't on my prediction list.
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Aug 7, 2016 18:28
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Groovelord Neato posted:a lot of creators don't consider their actual best works their favorite work for whatever reason. oftentimes it's some forgotten or lovely work. I'm always amazed by this myself. A lot of musicians, writers and artists in general seem to like completely different material than what their fans do. As an artist myself, I run into that also.
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Aug 7, 2016 19:18
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i think stephen king himself didn't like hearing about a book from 20-30 years ago being his best work or someone's favorite because it's like he got worse or just never got better. seems kinda weird to me because i'd love for someone to tell me their favorite book was something i wrote at all even if it was early in my career.
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Aug 7, 2016 19:32
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Groovelord Neato posted:i think stephen king himself didn't like hearing about a book from 20-30 years ago being his best work or someone's favorite because it's like he got worse or just never got better. seems kinda weird to me because i'd love for someone to tell me their favorite book was something i wrote at all even if it was early in my career. Yep. He said in On Writing that he gets ticked off that most people mention The Stand as their favourite book for just that reason. That response implies that you (as author) haven't improved as a writer. To which you could say, "Well, you might have improved your craft and gained experience but maybe your best ideas were your early ones". I also have a sneaking suspicion that although King's craft may have improved as a writer, I don't think his judgment has. He has had some good ideas since drying out in 1990 (?) - mainly in novellas and stories rather than novels - but I think he has got lazy, fallen into formulae and botched a few great premises because he refuses to plot. In the post-90 period it is novellas and stories which work best because they consist of the premise, an event and an outcome. In the novels there is much more scope for him to botch it by introducing absurd stuff, taking tangents or just boring readers. I don't think any writer has 60 (!) good novels in him. I'll re-read any book/story/novella from before 1990 and I'll only re-read a handful after 1990. I think that King has two big problems: a) he has run out of really good ideas for novels, b) his reliance on formulae and his refusal to plot either tightly or at least without deus ex machina magic mean that promising ideas fail. I love King and I am sad to write that. 
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Aug 7, 2016 20:42
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I'll happily defend Revival as my favorite King novel despite it being not incredibly original. I think it's his best prose in a novel by far.
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Aug 7, 2016 22:46
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Cast Iron Brick posted:I'll happily defend Revival as my favorite King novel despite it being not incredibly original. I think it's his best prose in a novel by far. I agree. His craft has more or less steadily improved throughout his career (modulo the obviously drug-fueled text here and there), but as Josef says, his judgment has continued to cost him quite a bit of the quality he might otherwise have achieved. I've basically fallen off the King train after about Revival -- though it was good, I've just not felt compelled to read anything lately he's done.
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Aug 7, 2016 23:20
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mdemone posted:I've basically fallen off the King train after about Revival -- though it was good, I've just not felt compelled to read anything lately he's done. I read and enjoyed 11/22/63 but I am really ready for him to put out some more traditional horror.
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Aug 7, 2016 23:23
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Revival hooked me instantly and I powered through it in one sitting. Plenty of books can be creepy at the time and certainly sow seeds for sleepless nights after putting them down, but I don't think I've encountered a line that inspired such an immediate sense of dread as: "Lightning had smashed the lock on a door that was never supposed to be opened, and Mother came through." Just the whole build up to that point was perfect and it absolutely chilled me. Unfortunately it then turned out to be ants. Well, the journey there was excellent, at least.
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Aug 8, 2016 00:45
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Lemon posted:Revival hooked me instantly and I powered through it in one sitting. Plenty of books can be creepy at the time and certainly sow seeds for sleepless nights after putting them down, but I don't think I've encountered a line that inspired such an immediate sense of dread as: It was one of if not the most dismal things he ever wrote. Like Poe and Lovecraft got in an argument about how to write a worldview that alternately makes you want to kill yourself, but also afraid to do so. Sleep with the lights on.
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Aug 8, 2016 00:54
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with king there's that extra element of having been loaded when writing all the books everyone says are his best, and now that he's clean the fans are way less enthusiastic (yet critics keep giving him passes for some reason, see the latest incomprehensible slavish praise for end of watch)
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Aug 8, 2016 00:56
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Lemon posted:turned out to be ants. Well, the journey there was excellent, at least. To be fair, that is an ending more Lovecraft than Lovecraft ever wrote.
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Aug 8, 2016 01:04
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syscall girl posted:It was one of if not the most dismal things he ever wrote. To me it just seemed a bit too humdrum compared to the buildup. Not to say it wasn't bleak as hell, but just being a slave to ants for eternity was a bit too, I don't know, relatable? I guess that's always a problem about writing about cosmic, unknowable horrors, putting them into words seems to bring them down somewhat. Edit: I think it's just for me that line put me at such fever pitch that almost nothing would have lived up to it. When I read "Mother came through" I thought it was going to be some real wrath of God, mind-melting insanity, but it was just a physical monster that could be killed. Lemon fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 01:09
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Lemon posted:To me it just seemed a bit too humdrum compared to the buildup. Not to say it wasn't bleak as hell, but just being a slave to ants for eternity was a bit too, I don't know, relatable? Stephen King is bad at ending stories. Someone will take a liking to it and patch it up with love and constant readership one day.
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Aug 8, 2016 01:24
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d0s posted:with king there's that extra element of having been loaded when writing all the books everyone says are his best, and now that he's clean the fans are way less enthusiastic (yet critics keep giving him passes for some reason, see the latest incomprehensible slavish praise for end of watch) This happens to artists and musicians all the time too and ties in to what I wrote a few posts back. Artist is constantly hosed up and on hard drugs and produces amazing work. Artist dries out and sobers up and his work somehow suffers for it. I'm not sure why that is. I don't think it's as simple as the audience knowing they've gotten clean. There's something about substance abuse and creativity that seem to go hand in hand.
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Aug 8, 2016 02:24
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BiggerBoat posted:This happens to artists and musicians all the time too and ties in to what I wrote a few posts back. Artist is constantly hosed up and on hard drugs and produces amazing work. Artist dries out and sobers up and his work somehow suffers for it. I'm not sure why that is. I don't think it's as simple as the audience knowing they've gotten clean. There is one thing. And it's anxiety. This will clamp down your creative juices like whoa. Basically if you're scared or nervous enough and then you've relied on medication or alcohol for long enough it takes a long time, maybe forever, to get that creative spirit going again. Doesn't mean you should take drugs to write but if you got PTSD'd and saw your friend get hit by a train and explode, or just some minor regular drama that we all get throughout our lives that anxiety swallows you whole. You can't think or write, you're like a zombie and after that drink, that puff, that whatever the gently caress you loosen up but then you notice your family and your friends are saying he isn't acting right and you have to feed the good dog. Or do you feed the dog that pays the loving bills? Very peculiar situation. But I respect him for bringing it back in and moping around with his old ideas and anecdotes and trunk stories.
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Aug 8, 2016 02:31
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Groovelord Neato posted:a lot of creators don't consider their actual best works their favorite work for whatever reason. oftentimes it's some forgotten or lovely work. I remember reading in an interview that Lisey's Story is closest of all his books to the book he envisioned when he set out to write it.
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Aug 8, 2016 02:32
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Guys, I'm going to say something unbelievable about a Stephen King book. I thought Revival was too short. I wanted to know more about Jamie's music career and more about the start of his spiral.
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Aug 8, 2016 02:32
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BiggerBoat posted:This happens to artists and musicians all the time too and ties in to what I wrote a few posts back. Artist is constantly hosed up and on hard drugs and produces amazing work. Artist dries out and sobers up and his work somehow suffers for it. I'm not sure why that is. I don't think it's as simple as the audience knowing they've gotten clean. when you're a huge addict you have lots of hosed up experiences, pain, and suffering. if you're creative you can channel that stuff into your work, probably works especially well with horror writing. when you get clean you can't really put yourself back in that mindset without probably doing hosed up things to your brain, so you avoid going too far consciously or not
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Aug 8, 2016 07:01
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Also I get the impression that one of King’s worst traits as a writer is his compulsive need to over-explain poo poo, and for whatever reason drunk-King did that just a bit less than sober-King.
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Aug 8, 2016 19:33
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BiggerBoat posted:This happens to artists and musicians all the time too and ties in to what I wrote a few posts back. Artist is constantly hosed up and on hard drugs and produces amazing work. Artist dries out and sobers up and his work somehow suffers for it. I'm not sure why that is. I don't think it's as simple as the audience knowing they've gotten clean. I've always likened it to the difference between dancing sober and dancing with a few drinks in you. There is a definite difference and it comes out in all forms of expression.
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Aug 8, 2016 22:51
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I finished The Dead Zone last night, with an eye towards this year's elections and candidates. I don't think this stuff is particularly spoiler-y, but please just skip down if you're concerned. I think it's well known that a main character in the book is a novel kind of politician named Greg Stillson. He's running for Congress. As I was reading on my tablet, I highlighted and saved the following quotations. They are pretty much all from the final act, the last 100 pages or so. In which King puts his finger on one of the motivations behind Trump voters (and, indeed, Bernie-or-Busters as well). Chapter 20: "And if that's all Stillson was, then there was no problem, was there? A charming eccentric, a piece of blank paper which the electorate could write its message: You other guys are so wasted that we decided to elect this fool for two years instead," (italics his). In which King ascribes to his protagonist a level of naiveté that many of us shared when Trump started going full-fascist. This is after the protagonist sees Stillson's violent bodyguards for what they are. He labels them: "Brownshirts. That's what they are," (to paraphrase). "Americans had a rather low tolerance for the fascist approach -- even rock-ribbed righties like Reagan didn't go for that stuff; nothing but a pure fact no matter how many tantrums the New Left might want to throw or how many songs Joan Baez wrote. Eight years before, the fascist tactics of the Chicago police had helped lose the election for Hubert Humphrey. Johnny didn't care how clean-cut these fellows were; if they were in the employ of a man running for the House of Representatives, then Stillson couldn't be more than a few paces from overstepping himself. If it wasn't quite so weird, it really would be funny," (italics mine). Short and sweet. Chapter 25: "The Republicans had fallen to squabbling splinters...." About the media: "And another thing: dirt under the rug is only as dirty as the press wants to make it, and the press likes Stillson. He cultivates them." In which King paints a picture in dialogue of Stillson's populist appeal, and almost literally coins "gently caress You Got Mine" at the same time. Chapter 26: "'Why, pleased to meet you, Johnny. Dicky O'Donnell, that's me.' He drew himself a beer from the tap. 'Yeah, Greg's done this part of New Hampshire a lotta good. And there's a lotta people afraid to come right out and say it, but I'm not. I'll say it right out loud, Some day Greg Stillson's apt to be president.' 'You think so?' 'I do,' O'Donnell said, coming back to the bar. 'New Hampshire's not big enough to hold Greg. He's one hell of a politician, and coming from me, that's something. I thought the whole crew was nothin' but a bunch of crooks and lollygags. I still do, but Greg's an exception to the rule. He's a square shooter. If you told me five years ago I'd be sayin' something like that, I woulda laughed in your face. You'd be more likely to find me readin' poitry than seein' any good in a politician, I woulda said. But goddammit, he's a man.' Johnny said, 'Most of these guys want to be your buddy while they're running for office, but when they get in it's gently caress you, Jack, I got mine until the next election. I come from Maine myself, and the one time I wrote Ed Muskie, you know what I got? A form letter!' 'Ah, that's a Polack for you,' O'Donnell said. 'What do you expect from a Polack? Listen, Greg comes back to the district every drat weekend! Now does that sound like gently caress you, Jack, I got mine, to you?'" "Does that sound like gently caress you, Jack, I got mine, to you?" appears once more on that page. I'm not sure there's a spoiler in there but the conversation does kinda bear on the plot of that part of the book so I'm not taking any chances. King's Stillson and our Trump are similar in some ways, and very different in others (especially policy, things have changed a lot since 1979 - Stillson's bogeymen are drug-pushers, wife-cheating politicians, and, very hypocritically, corruption; where Trump's are immigrants, Muslims, liberals, etc.) but in both cases there is palpable fear that a Stillson or a Trump presidency could lead to disaster up to and including the kind involving nuclear Armageddon. I don't suppose it takes a great genius to predict this sort of election, even in the years leading up to The Dead Zone's publication in 1979. The history and groundwork are there for anyone looking for it. It's just that these passages resonate in an eerie way today.
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Aug 8, 2016 23:57
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Pheeets posted:I've always likened it to the difference between dancing sober and dancing with a few drinks in you. There is a definite difference and it comes out in all forms of expression. That's well put. I think it just tends to flow and pour out more when your inhibitions are loosened, whatever form of expression it is, for good or for ill. The dancing analogy is a really good one. Dr. Faustus posted:
That's interesting that the book was written in 1979 but still name checks Reagan as a poster child of the right. I was trying to figure that part out but I'd forgotten Reagan ran in the primary in 1976. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Aug 9, 2016 |
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Aug 9, 2016 00:22
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Don't forget he also implicated a lot of his colleagues during the red scare hunt in Hollywood in the 40s and 50s, that rat faced gently caress.
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Aug 9, 2016 07:47
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Dr. Faustus posted:I finished The Dead Zone Thanks for the effort post. Much appreciated. About Revival, that is one I haven't read and I will borrow a library copy.
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Aug 9, 2016 10:08
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Dead Zone surprised me much in the same way The Shining surprised me. All I knew about it going in was a guy having psychic flashes when he touched people. But 90% of the book is just a character study of this guy and his life. The special powers occasionally come into play to thrust him in a different direction, but they don't dictate his character. Even the political stuff which is essentially the central conflict doesn't actually get going until the last fourth of the book It's also one of the more satisfying endings of any of King's novels I have read. No spoilers, but I'm glad King didn't spend so much time building this guy's life and then poo poo the bed in the end.
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Aug 10, 2016 04:52
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dirksteadfast posted:
The resolution of the story is one reason why The Dead Zone is one of my favorite King books. It's unexpected, yet perfectly reasonable and fitting, and, yes, satisfying, and it doesn't involve alien bats or ants from hell. One of his most graceful wind-ups, in my opinion.
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Aug 10, 2016 05:30
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Anyone who hasn't read The Dead Zone owes themselves the very special treat to introduce themselves to this fine book in this very special election year 2016. “I asked you how you’d like to be my campaign manager,” Greg repeated. “Greg . . .” Gendron had to clear his throat and start again. “Greg, you don’t seem to understand. Harrison Fisher is the Third District representative in Washington. Harrison Fisher is Republican, respected, and probably eternal.” “No one is eternal,” Greg said. “Harrison is drat close,” Gendron said. “Ask Harvey. They went to school together. Back around 1800, I think.” Greg took no notice of this thin witticism. “I’ll call myself a Bull Moose or something . . . and everyone will think I’m kidding around . . . and in the end, the good people of the Third District are going to laugh me all the way to Washington.” “Greg, you’re crazy.” Greg’s smile disappeared as if it had never been there. Something frightening happened to his face. It became very still, and his eyes widened to show too much of the whites. They were like the eyes of a horse that smells bad water. “You don’t want to say something like that, Chuck. Ever.” The banker felt more than chilled now. “Greg, I apologize. It’s just that . . .” “No, you don’t ever want to say that to me, unless you want to find Sonny Elliman waiting for you some afternoon when you go out to get your big loving Imperial.” Gendron’s mouth moved but no sound came out. Greg smiled again, and it was like the sun suddenly breaking through threatening clouds. “Never mind. We don’t want to be kicking sand if we’re going to be working together.” “Greg . . .” “I want you because you know every drat businessman in this part of New Hampshire. We’re gonna have plenty good money once we get this thing rolling, but I figure we’ll have to prime the pump. Now’s the time for me to expand a little, and start looking like the state’s man as well as Ridgeway’s man. I figure fifty thousand dollars ought to be enough to fertilize the grass roots.” The banker, who had worked for Harrison Fisher in his last four canvasses, was so astounded by Greg’s political naiveté that at first he was at a loss on how to proceed. At last he said, “Greg. Businessmen contribute to campaigns not out of the goodness of their hearts but because the winner ends up owing them something. In a close campaign they’ll contribute to any candidate who has a chance of winning, because they can write off the loser as a tax loss as well. But the operant phrase is chance of winning. Now Fisher is a . . .” “Shoo-in,” Greg supplied. He produced an envelope from his back pocket. “Want you to look at these.” Gendron looked doubtfully at the envelope, then up at Greg. Greg nodded encouragingly. The banker opened the envelope. There was a long silence in the pine-panelled office after Gendron’s initial harsh gasp for breath. It was unbroken except for the faint hum of the digital clock on the banker’s desk and the hiss of a match as Greg lit a Phillies cheroot. On the walls of the office were Frederick Remington pictures. In the lucite cube were family pictures. Now, spread on the desk, were pictures of the banker with his head buried between the thighs of a young woman with black hair—or it might have been red, the pictures were high-grain black-and-white glossies and it was hard to tell. The woman’s face was very clear. It was not the face of the banker’s wife. Some residents of Ridgeway would have recognized it as the face of one of the waitresses at Bobby Strang’s truckstop two towns over. For whatever reason, as Trump began having his first big rallies, the element of the nation being amused at him and not really taking him very seriously made me think of the bolded Bull Moose comment right away. Even though they come from very different backgrounds, Trump's attitude towards politics is very Stillson-esque. Zwabu fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 19:35
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The whole chapter where Greg first meets Sonny, the biker who will become essentially the head of his personal SS, is a classic and highlights just how GOOD King's ear for writing good dialogue is when he's at his best: Greg’s eyes became far away, almost puzzled. “I told you I’m a big man in Ridgeway. I’m going to run for mayor next time the office comes up, and I’ll win. But that’s . . .” “Just the beginning?” Sonny prompted. “It’s a start, anyway.” That puzzled expression was still there. “I get things done. People know it. I’m good at what I do. I feel like . . . there’s a lot ahead of me. Sky’s the limit. But I’m not . . . quite sure . . . what I mean. You know?” Sonny only shrugged. The puzzled expression faded. “But there’s a story, Sonny. A story about a mouse who took a thorn out of a lion’s paw. He did it to repay the lion for not eating him a few years before. You know that story?” “I might have heard it when I was a kid.” Greg nodded. “Well, it’s a few years before . . . whatever it is, Sonny.” He shoved the plastic Baggies across the desk. “I’m not going to eat you. I could if I wanted to, you know. A kiddie lawyer couldn’t get you off. In this town, with the riots going on in Hampton less than twenty miles away, Clarence loving Darrow couldn’t get you off in Ridgeway. These good people would love to see you go up.” Elliman didn’t reply, but he suspected Greg was right. There was nothing heavy in his dope stash—two Brown Bombers was the heaviest—but the collective parents of good old Susie and Jim would be glad to see him breaking rocks in Portsmouth, with his hair cut off his head. “I’m not going to eat you,” Greg repeated. “I hope you’ll remember that in a few years if I get a thorn in my paw . . . or maybe if I have a job opportunity for you. Keep it in mind?” Gratitude was not in Sonny Elliman’s limited catalogue of human feelings, but interest and curiosity were. He felt both ways about this man Stillson. That craziness in his eyes hinted at many things, but boredom was not one of them.
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Aug 10, 2016 19:40
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Skipped all the spoiler talk, I think it's been 15 years since I read the Dead Zone and remember nothing besides the premise. Started re-reading it today.
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Aug 11, 2016 02:59
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I think the Trump=Stillson people are kind of just seeing what they want to see, if they makes sense. I don't buy the comparison except at the most basic level of "political candidate I don't like and will probably do damage to the country", and I think unless something really, really awful comes out about Trump, the comparison downplays just how bad of a guy Stillson was. All that aside, it is a great book.
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Aug 12, 2016 12:47
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If you've read my post on the subject, you'd note the similarities I cited with quotations were not of the candidates themselves. The opposite is true because I pointed out that their platforms (such as they are) are different. The similarities are the state of the GOP, media response, and the motivations of and response to the candidates by their supporters. I'm pretty confident that those are quite spot-on and not some kind of confirmation bias. But you cannot deny the fact that both condidates evoke serious concerns about the use of nukes. It's extant in the real world and the novel, both. Having just read Firestarter, The Dead Zone, and now "Roadwork" back-to-back, I'm in touch with my own childhood in a weird way. Not because I read them in the period that they were published, I was too young for that. All three of these works are set in the early to mid-70's. I was born in '71 and I remember so much of that world (not the politics, I get to enjoy that stuff with 20/20 hindsight and knowledge I've learned since then). It's the period things like how cheap everything was. How snow would fall in November and stay until Spring, phone-booths, electric-eyes, console TVs and the shows they aired, the gas crisis, people bitching about the speed limit, race relations, etc. Highly nostalgia-inducing. I rode my dirt-bike several miles to buy candy bars that cost $0.25, for example. Even as a kid I was surprised by how fast the price of candy rose. I feel like I need a dose of hard sci-fi now, something based in the far future to shake it off. Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Aug 12, 2016 |
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Aug 12, 2016 18:03
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I love all the details in The Dead Zone when he comes out of his coma - suddenly the doctor is writing with a weird new pen, and all the streetlights are a gross orange color.
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Aug 12, 2016 18:15
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Murphy Brownback posted:I think the Trump=Stillson people are kind of just seeing what they want to see, if they makes sense. I don't buy the comparison except at the most basic level of "political candidate I don't like and will probably do damage to the country", and I think unless something really, really awful comes out about Trump, the comparison downplays just how bad of a guy Stillson was. stillson is a better person than trump you seem to have the "this is a bad comparison" reasoning backwards.
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Aug 12, 2016 18:49
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Magic Hate Ball posted:I love all the details in The Dead Zone when he comes out of his coma - suddenly the doctor is writing with a weird new pen, and all the streetlights are a gross orange color. Those loving arc sodiums he's always on about?
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Aug 12, 2016 19:07
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Magic Hate Ball posted:I love all the details in The Dead Zone when he comes out of his coma - suddenly the doctor is writing with a weird new pen, and all the streetlights are a gross orange color. Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Those loving arc sodiums he's always on about? The airport where I work was orange until I lost my job in Spring of 2015. I came back to the same job a year later and everything is brilliantly lit by bright white LEDs. That orange light has always been rather ugly. This really is much better: Before (June, 2013):  After (May 27, 2016):  (July 7, 2016): 
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Aug 12, 2016 23:11
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Those loving arc sodiums he's always on about? This was in end of watch too and I really want to know what his deal is with that phrase because I've googled it and nobody calls them that
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Aug 12, 2016 23:46
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d0s posted:This was in end of watch too and I really want to know what his deal is with that phrase because I've googled it and nobody calls them that It's what both of my grandpas called those orange sodium-based streetlights, so it's probably just an old dude thing now.
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Aug 12, 2016 23:56
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Orange lights were a big deal when they first came around, so people from back then probably would've been more familiar with the term (I've always heard them called "sodium vapor lamps"), and now that everyone's switching to cool white LEDs there's people upset about losing the atmosphere of the sodium lights.
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Aug 13, 2016 00:08
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Zwabu posted:For whatever reason, as Trump began having his first big rallies, the element of the nation being amused at him and not really taking him very seriously made me think of the bolded Bull Moose comment right away. I'd call those "logical reasons". Murphy Brownback posted:I think the Trump=Stillson people are kind of just seeing what they want to see, if they makes sense. I don't buy the comparison except at the most basic level of "political candidate I don't like and will probably do damage to the country", and I think unless something really, really awful comes out about Trump, the comparison downplays just how bad of a guy Stillson was. I find the comparisons pretty valid. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Aug 13, 2016 |
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Aug 13, 2016 01:01
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Orange lights were a big deal when they first came around, so people from back then probably would've been more familiar with the term (I've always heard them called "sodium vapor lamps"), and now that everyone's switching to cool white LEDs there's people upset about losing the atmosphere of the sodium lights. I kind of miss them. Like the way you miss pre-Giuliani Times Square. Lead paint. Old Vegas. Asbestos ceiling tiles. So actually not all that much.
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Aug 13, 2016 01:03
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