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caberham posted:
I just wanted to say that sounds like an issue with North American payment systems. In the UK and a lot of Europe we introduced tap and go pretty widely a couple of years ago, it actually freaked me out a little bit coming back from Malaysia because it just feels very dangerous being able to pay for a round of drinks just by tapping your card against the machine. A few card companies seem to have phone apps now, apple pay is getting more common but I don't think Google Wallet has really managed to take off at all. I guess they haven't found a way to make it that profitable as I haven't seen any marketing around it. I'm too paranoid to put payment stuff into my phone having had it stolen once. Having to change all my passwords was bad enough I don't want to have to change all my cards as well if I lose another one.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:31
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MrNemo posted:I just wanted to say that sounds like an issue with North American payment systems. In the UK and a lot of Europe we introduced tap and go pretty widely a couple of years ago, it actually freaked me out a little bit coming back from Malaysia because it just feels very dangerous being able to pay for a round of drinks just by tapping your card against the machine. A few card companies seem to have phone apps now, apple pay is getting more common but I don't think Google Wallet has really managed to take off at all. I guess they haven't found a way to make it that profitable as I haven't seen any marketing around it. We have tap and go in the US, just usually through bank/credit cards rather than loving around with a phone. Most places have stopped issuing them because people didn't really use it enough, it wasn't really faster than just swiping your card.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:50
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MrNemo posted:I just wanted to say that sounds like an issue with North American payment systems. In the UK and a lot of Europe we introduced tap and go pretty widely a couple of years ago, it actually freaked me out a little bit coming back from Malaysia because it just feels very dangerous being able to pay for a round of drinks just by tapping your card against the machine. A few card companies seem to have phone apps now, apple pay is getting more common but I don't think Google Wallet has really managed to take off at all. I guess they haven't found a way to make it that profitable as I haven't seen any marketing around it.
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Aug 13, 2016 04:45
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cowofwar posted:Iphones at least require fingerprint authentication for payments. And yet, because it's still just shorthand for swiping your card, you often still have to key in your PIN or give a signature
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Aug 13, 2016 04:57
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MrNemo posted:I just wanted to say that sounds like an issue with North American payment systems. Tap and go is pretty common in Canada.
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Aug 13, 2016 05:10
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The US doesn't have tap? Like you have to actually press buttons or put in a pin or do anything other than touch your card to a thing?
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Aug 13, 2016 05:55
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My last couple of US cards have had the tap RFID chip thing in them. I have no idea how common it is since next to nothing in the US is universally applicable across the country. I've never understood why people from Europe especially are so obsessed with this in the US since there's no difference I can see? You touch it to a thing or swipe it through a thing, the amount of time involved is the same. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Aug 13, 2016 |
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Aug 13, 2016 05:57
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Baronjutter posted:The US doesn't have tap? Like you have to actually press buttons or put in a pin or do anything other than touch your card to a thing? No one bothers to tap because it's not any faster, but it's there.
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Aug 13, 2016 13:51
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Grand Fromage posted:You touch it to a thing or swipe it through a thing, the amount of time involved is the same. Wait, so when to you have to put in a PIN? In Canada you don't need a PIN when you tap for purchases under $100, so it's the fastest way to pay by far.
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Aug 13, 2016 15:28
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Grand Fromage posted:You touch it to a thing or swipe it through a thing, the amount of time involved is the same. Tap and go in Canada means you put your card on the reader for one second until it beeps then you take your poo poo and leave. There's no signature, no pin, just tap and go. You can mash your whole wallet on the reader if you don't care which card it picks for the transaction. Tap is faster than cash. ^ ^ ^ ^ It's $200 for many cards now.
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Aug 13, 2016 15:34
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McGavin posted:Wait, so when to you have to put in a PIN? In Canada you don't need a PIN when you tap for purchases under $100, so it's the fastest way to pay by far. Enter the PIN afterward. I wouldn't use a card that's accessible without a PIN, that's just asking for trouble.
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Aug 13, 2016 15:41
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Grand Fromage posted:Enter the PIN afterward. I wouldn't use a card that's accessible without a PIN, that's just asking for trouble. Yeah, because entering the same 4-6 numbers to verify every transaction is definitely more secure than an encrypted one-time code.
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Aug 13, 2016 16:33
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McGavin posted:Yeah, because entering the same 4-6 numbers to verify every transaction is definitely more secure than an encrypted one-time code. The danger is if the card gets stolen, not if the number gets intercepted midway or whatever.
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Aug 13, 2016 16:36
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computer parts posted:The danger is if the card gets stolen, not if the number gets intercepted midway or whatever. Yes. The only way to avoid a card skimmer is not have your card in one.
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Aug 13, 2016 16:44
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fishmech posted:No one bothers to tap because it's not any faster, but it's there. It is increasingly not there. For a while if you saw the reader it would work because merchants had to go out of their way to get one. But now retailers are upgrading their terminals for chip cards and nearly all of those terminals have the tap to pay antenna and branding but it is never enabled. Nothing kills consumer adoption quite like being uncertain that it will work every time. Shifty Pony fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 13, 2016 |
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Aug 13, 2016 16:57
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computer parts posted:The danger is if the card gets stolen, not if the number gets intercepted midway or whatever. That's what that spending limit and zero liability coverage prevent, but with the lack of consumer protection in the US I can see why you would be wary.
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Aug 13, 2016 16:59
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Grand Fromage posted:I wouldn't use a card that's accessible without a PIN, that's just asking for trouble. This is all credit cards, all the time, always. All you need is the numbers on the front and back and it can be skimmed. CC companies in Canada are 100% liable for fraud. The consumer is 0% liable. Tap is pushed so hard because it's more secure than number entry, swipe and sign or chip and pin.
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Aug 13, 2016 17:07
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McGavin posted:That's what that spending limit and zero liability coverage prevent, but with the lack of consumer protection in the US I can see why you would be wary. We already have zero liability coverage. The issue is not a legal one, it's a logistics one. I don't want to go through the headache of getting a new credit card even though it's only a million purchases under $25 or whatever.
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Aug 13, 2016 17:09
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Rumor is that the Chinese government will go after instigators of hard derails in this thread.
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Aug 13, 2016 17:09
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computer parts posted:I don't want to go through the headache of getting a new credit card even though it's only a million purchases under $25 or whatever. Don't you have to do that if your card is stolen regardless of whether it's RFID or chip and PIN?
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Aug 13, 2016 17:37
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Shifty Pony posted:It is increasingly not there. For a while if you saw the reader it would work because merchants had to go out of their way to get one. But now retailers are upgrading their terminals upgrading their terminals for chip cards and nearly all of those terminals have the tap to pay antenna and branding but it is never enabled. As a Canadian who has lived in the Northeast of the US for the last four years, this is what a lot of Canadians don't understand in this debate. In Canada, when chips and then tap were rolled out I pretty much noticed them everywhere within about 6 months. My bank issued me a new card and I all of a sudden could use it at just about every major business that accepted cards. It was easy to get used to the new payment system. In the US, the system is subtly different in a number of ways. When I initially moved to the US, I didn't have any American credit, and so all I could get was a credit-debit card from my bank, a concept totally foreign to me. This is a card that can either be used as a debit card or a "credit card," though the latter is a misnomer since you can't actually carry a balance but the bank just waits longer to deduct the amount from your account. When you use an actual credit card or your bank card as a credit card, you almost always have to sign the old fashioned way. Over the last year or so, chips have slowly been rolled out in the Northeast for credit cards. The problem is that you can never tell which businesses actually have chip payment enabled, so it becomes a minor pain in the rear end to have to use it sometimes. In both Philadelphia and New York I've seen, for instance, within the same neighbourhoods some CVSes that have never had chip payment enabled and some that have had it rolled out for six months. Over time it starts to get annoying and you just swipe for everything because you know you won't have to deal with the cashier explaining that it doesn't work.
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Aug 13, 2016 17:43
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So we are all in agreement that China letting you use a phone to pay is hardly an example of paradigm changing Chinese innovation when we've had this poo poo in the West for years and in a way that isn't as cumbersome as taking out your phone and doing stuff with it?
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Aug 13, 2016 19:23
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MeinPanzer posted:As a Canadian who has lived in the Northeast of the US for the last four years, this is what a lot of Canadians don't understand in this debate. Yeah, I had a Paypass card here in the US about a decade ago, but I only found one merchant with a terminal enabled for it. When they sent me the replacement because it was expiring, the new one didn't have any kind of contactless capability. I haven't seen it on any of my cards since. I think banks have given up on it in the US since it's basically useless here with approximately zero merchants actually being set up to accept it.
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Aug 13, 2016 21:19
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Yeah, the problem with tap & go in the US isn't "lack of innovation", it's that merchants haven't really been given any reason to go out of their way to accept it when it's not noticeably better than swipe & pin for them.
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Aug 13, 2016 21:34
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hailthefish posted:Yeah, the problem with tap & go in the US isn't "lack of innovation", it's that merchants haven't really been given any reason to go out of their way to accept it when it's not noticeably better than swipe & pin for them. And, ironically, because the technology has been in use in many other parts of the developed world for some time, criminals have had plenty of time to figure out how to exploit the new system, so that the value of switching to it now in the US is minimal. The benefit of adopting these kinds of new security systems comes when you do so early, so that you can enjoy a period of at least a few years before scammers figure out all the vulnerabilities.
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Aug 13, 2016 22:24
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hailthefish posted:Yeah, the problem with tap & go in the US isn't "lack of innovation", it's that merchants haven't really been given any reason to go out of their way to accept it when it's not noticeably better than swipe & pin for them. Or swipe & signature, or just swipe, or chip and signature, or chip and pin, or the 5 different uses of phones, one of which involved magnets to simulate a swipe...
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Aug 13, 2016 22:58
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Here's a lovely payment method from 20 years ago. Precursor I guess, to chip cards. They rolled them out for the '96 Olympic Games. Gave out readers for merchants to use in the city. Nobody used them. It was back when they'd just take your balance if you didn't use the card within a year, so there wasn't much demand except as a collector's item. At least Traveller's Cheques had loss protection.
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Aug 14, 2016 01:46
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I was forced to use chip today, literally no idea loving how, the reader was at the bottom of the machine where I couldn't even see it until the store clerk reached over and jammed in my card for me.
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Aug 14, 2016 02:12
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AtomikKrab posted:I was forced to use chip today, literally no idea loving how, the reader was at the bottom of the machine where I couldn't even see it until the store clerk reached over and jammed in my card for me. Don't know how many times now a cashier has said I could insert my chip card and I've done so only for the cashier a few seconds later to tell me that it doesn't seem to be working, gently caress around with the card for a bit, and then just gets me to swipe. I'm pretty sure most of the problems stem from a lack of awareness or training in how to use the machines.
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Aug 14, 2016 02:20
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Can we get a :chipcard: up in hear for cardchat? Thanks mods.
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Aug 14, 2016 02:21
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One of the little things no one mentions about the phone pay stuff in China is nobody ever knows how it works, customer or cashier, so it takes loving forever. It's like being stuck behind an old lady writing checks but even longer because it never works or at least takes several attempts.
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Aug 14, 2016 04:11
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Grand Fromage posted:One of the little things no one mentions about the phone pay stuff in China is nobody ever knows how it works, customer or cashier, so it takes loving forever. It's like being stuck behind an old lady writing checks but even longer because it never works or at least takes several attempts. Bitcoin in China looking up!
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Aug 14, 2016 04:30
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Krispy Kareem posted:Here's a lovely payment method from 20 years ago. We've had something similar here in Germany for a couple of decades now. Every ATM can transfer money to your individual chip card from your bank account, which can then be used to pay in offline situations. Its mostly used for things like cig vending or subway tickets machines, stuff where its not feasible to install a landline internet connection for transactions. Also, since the money is on the chip itself, its completely gone if you lose your card.
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Aug 14, 2016 12:00
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waitwhatno posted:We've had something similar here in Germany for a couple of decades now. Every ATM can transfer money to your individual chip card from your bank account, which can then be used to pay in offline situations. Its mostly used for things like cig vending or subway tickets machines, stuff where its not feasible to install a landline internet connection for transactions. What, the Germans are so broke they can't afford to run a simple phone line into subway stations and vending machines outside stores? Or use the cell network? Any vending machines that bother to take things besides cash in the US will use one of those methods, because credit card transactions can be completely handled by like a 9600 baud modem. Or a similarly slow cheap cell phone connection. Setting up a whole separate system of cards to use offline seems needlessly complicated?
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Aug 14, 2016 18:42
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If there's anyone who does "needlessly complicated", it's the Germans.
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Aug 14, 2016 20:04
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fishmech posted:What, the Germans are so broke they can't afford to run a simple phone line into subway stations and vending machines outside stores? Or use the cell network? Cig vending machines are on every street corner and in every park, would be totally impractical and expensive to provide landlines to all of them. Ticket machines are also often in bumfuck nowhere, far from any telephone lines. I think the system was designed during the early 90', before there was enough cell phone coverage to do transactions over mobile. The system probably still exists today because it saves businesses a lot of money. You don't have to dick around with counterfeit money detection, theft, regularly emptying the moneybox, etc. and you get all of that without paying for an online connection& servicing it. Cig vending machines theoretically still take money, but lol, good luck getting it to accept a non-pristine bill. They also don't give change. It's specifically designed to make the use of cash as unpleasant as possible. Xerxes17 posted:If there's anyone who does "needlessly complicated", it's the Germans. Pretty much. There is nothing in this world that scares a German engineer more than an under-engineered solution. What if there is a cell tower outage or a storm and nobody can buy cigs without cash at the vending machine?  We can't let that happen, we have to find a proper solution.
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Aug 14, 2016 20:39
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waitwhatno posted:Cig vending machines are on every street corner and in every park, would be totally impractical and expensive to provide landlines to all of them. Ticket machines are also often in bumfuck nowhere, far from any telephone lines. Yeah in the US you either slap a cell antenna on those or, more commonly, just go cash only because why bother spending the money. It's not like detecting counterfeits is hard, the like 3 companies that actually build bill acceptors take care of all that hard work, and emptying the moneybox is easy because some nearby store actually owns the machine and sends the assistant manager out to grab the cashbox every so often. Plus the drat things need to be restocked anyway so you can just have the guy who restocks pull the cash. Of course there's the whole problem that cigarettes are still popular enough to make cig vending machines a viable thing, but that's another thing.
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Aug 14, 2016 20:47
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Krispy Kareem posted:Here's a lovely payment method from 20 years ago. They had those in China for their pay phones. I still have my card somewhere, since I was too lazy to buy a SIM for my card.
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Aug 15, 2016 00:49
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computer parts posted:They had those in China for their pay phones. I still have my card somewhere, since I was too lazy to buy a SIM for my card. Brb, investing my pension in Chinese Payment App Innovation
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Aug 15, 2016 01:06
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computer parts posted:They had those in China for their pay phones. I still have my card somewhere, since I was too lazy to buy a SIM for my card. Like, in China during the Olympics or just like all the time? Because I like it imagine VISA spending every Olympics trying to push a lovely payment system on the host city in some vain decades long attempt to make VISA CASH a thing.
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Aug 15, 2016 02:52
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