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spectralent posted:It's worth remembering late fantasy really sucked. This is also true. But I really question GW's ability to really learn the right lesson from..... anything, really.
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Aug 13, 2016 19:45
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FrostyPox posted:This is also true. But I really question GW's ability to really learn the right lesson from..... anything, really. They proudly proclaim they never do market research on anything they do of course they won't learn anything
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Aug 13, 2016 19:58
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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. "WHFB was failing, but when we shook it up really hardcore, sales went up dramatically. I bet the same will happen if we do it to 40K!" without any further thought or research.
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Aug 13, 2016 19:59
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fnordcircle posted:I'm not a drinker. 1 or 2 is it. I'm more of an alternate between coffee and weed to make it through life kind of guy. Ummmm, sounds like you need to update your definition of party as your life progresses? Sitting around and chatting over wine & cards with 8 friends or having potluck desserts & cocktails with the church ladies are both just as much a "party" as binge drinking cheap beer around a bonfire or turning out the lights in the basement & setting up a sound-system.
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Aug 13, 2016 20:54
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Atlas Hugged posted:In the system I've been toying with, you get tiers of actions. You directly command all of your units, but the commands a unit has access to at any given time are limited. You have a resource pool available each turn that grants you access to higher tiers of actions.
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Aug 13, 2016 21:34
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FrostyPox posted:According to their IR report, AoS is selling much, much better than Fantasy did for the last couple years. They also don't know how much of their "AOS" sales are people using their minis in other games, such as KoW.
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Aug 13, 2016 21:41
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Daedleh posted:They also don't know how much of their "AOS" sales are people using their minis in other games, such as KoW. I'm amazed they haven't been tracking how the new Age of Sigmar lines of golden ubermensch, Khorne bloodmen, and naked muscle dwarfs have been selling in comparison to their older kits. I would've been very curious to see how those have shaken out. The first new release I remember people being complimentary about was the recent tree spirit one. I'm guessing there was a surge in sales when the game first released (and as people scrambled to finish their existing armies) and another surge when the General's Handbook came out and points "fixed" the game. Plus, there's been a whole campaign running over the summer. I'm betting the line as a whole is selling fine, but I would love to know how the new additions are selling in comparison to the old/repackaged stuff.
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Aug 13, 2016 22:20
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Daedleh posted:They also don't know how much of their "AOS" sales are people using their minis in other games, such as KoW. If people started buying GW figures for other games en masse, they could save whatever table scraps they feed their game designers, so it probably doesn't matter much to them.
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Aug 13, 2016 22:24
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spectralent posted:It's worth remembering late fantasy really sucked. I have to disagree somewhat. Wood Elves had some nice new kits and despite some confusing rules they clearly wrote in anticipation of AOS, the book has great flavour and internal balance.
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Aug 14, 2016 00:22
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When you fail your activation roll in Epic you can still activate, you just have a more limited pool of actions to choose from. It works well without being super frustrating, and allows for thematic differences between armies to show up in-game in a sensible manner.
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Aug 14, 2016 01:20
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TKIY posted:I have to disagree somewhat. Wood Elves had some nice new kits and despite some confusing rules they clearly wrote in anticipation of AOS, the book has great flavour and internal balance.  8th as a whole had a bunch of issues, but it didn't need to be taken out back and shot. It was completely salvageable with some changes.
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Aug 14, 2016 03:35
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Safety Factor posted:The Dwarf book which came out just before the Wood Elves book was also pretty solid. I was seriously getting into building a new Dwarf army when End Times hit. It was going to take nothing less than a full edition change. Maybe you don't remember the second half of 3e 40k's lifespan, but it was a mess. 3e was OK and a good change from 2e, but it was far from perfect. Certain armies, like Blood Angels, were more or less unstoppable in Assault and could run over entire armies in a turn or two. There were some articles in an ongoing White Dwarf series called "Chapter Approved" that offered various fixes, all optional of course since they weren't in the official rules. Eventually these were collected into an anthology, naturally titled "Chapter Approved" that turned the game into a sort of 3.5e. Tournaments began using these rules in place of pure 3e, but they also included their own comp rules as well. So you never really knew what version of the game anyone was going to want to play when you showed up at your FLGS on 40k night. This was finally sorted out with the release of 4e, which was basically the last "good" edition of 40k, because it canonized all of those rules and put them into a single place.
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Aug 14, 2016 03:55
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Atlas Hugged posted:It was going to take nothing less than a full edition change. Maybe you don't remember the second half of 3e 40k's lifespan, but it was a mess. 3e was OK and a good change from 2e, but it was far from perfect. Certain armies, like Blood Angels, were more or less unstoppable in Assault and could run over entire armies in a turn or two. There were some articles in an ongoing White Dwarf series called "Chapter Approved" that offered various fixes, all optional of course since they weren't in the official rules. Eventually these were collected into an anthology, naturally titled "Chapter Approved" that turned the game into a sort of 3.5e. Tournaments began using these rules in place of pure 3e, but they also included their own comp rules as well. So you never really knew what version of the game anyone was going to want to play when you showed up at your FLGS on 40k night. This was finally sorted out with the release of 4e, which was basically the last "good" edition of 40k, because it canonized all of those rules and put them into a single place.
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Aug 14, 2016 04:33
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I am really glad that I have the WH40K 4E and 5E rulebooks and three reasonably complete armies (Tau, Eldar, and Space Marines) because I can save them for if I have kids who want to play with real things instead of video games.
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Aug 14, 2016 04:36
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Apollodorus posted:I am really glad that I have the WH40K 4E and 5E rulebooks and three reasonably complete armies (Tau, Eldar, and Space Marines) because I can save them for if I have kids who want to play with real things instead of video games. This is how I feel about my fantasy stuff and the 5e and 6e rules I have along with Kings of War. But by the time my kid is old enough to play these games, we'll have had about 7-10 years of new editions and entirely new games that might be way better than the nostalgia I have for those clunky old systems. Or he could end up being like the son of the owner of the FLGS and choose AoS as his chosen miniatures game.
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Aug 14, 2016 04:43
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Yeah maybe I should just sell everything I have and be rid of it. But since they are tiny soldier mans they don't really take up much space...
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Aug 14, 2016 04:51
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Safety Factor posted:I started 40k in 3rd so, yeah, I remember the trial assault rules and everything. That's what I'm saying though. The structure of 8th was salvageable with changes. Basically, a proper 9th edition. The thing that got me about 8th ed fantasy, and this is pretty similar an issue to other things in the rules is that it purports to be a mass, ranked battle game of formations, but we're still buying and removing individual models from a unit- not even heroes, but just random spearmen, you pay points to choose between 19 men and 20, thus you have this arbitrary distinction between having the unit 5 men wide or 6 men wide. This strikes me as the kind of design that might have worked out okay in the 1980 or early 90s when the game was small and there weren't very men in any army, but now it just comes off as goofy and out of touch. Honestly, 28mm scale is not very good for ranked battle games, especially at the scale GW wants to have them, but we're stuck with it now. A lot of minis games feel like they never really understood the massive improvement that other tabletop games had starting in 2000 onward. A few, like SAGA or X-wing definitely feel more modernized than others whereas Warmahordes(And I played and enjoyed WMH) and Warhammer feel bloated and bleh. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Aug 14, 2016 |
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Aug 14, 2016 13:03
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Speleothing posted:Ummmm, sounds like you need to update your definition of party as your life progresses? Sitting around and chatting over wine & cards with 8 friends or having potluck desserts & cocktails with the church ladies are both just as much a "party" as binge drinking cheap beer around a bonfire or turning out the lights in the basement & setting up a sound-system. this guy gets it
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Aug 14, 2016 13:08
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Panzeh posted:The thing that got me about 8th ed fantasy, and this is pretty similar an issue to other things in the rules is that it purports to be a mass, ranked battle game of formations, but we're still buying and removing individual models from a unit- not even heroes, but just random spearmen, you pay points to choose between 19 men and 20, thus you have this arbitrary distinction between having the unit 5 men wide or 6 men wide. Agreed. What makes it worse is that when the two blocks meet players often end up rolling for individual guys in the front rank separately as this one is a character with the sword of whatever and this other one is the unit champion with some other trinket. I don't know why I played fantasy for as long as I did. It's a terrible, fiddly system. But I will defend 28mm (Gods own scale) for mass battle games. Black Powder and it's off shoot systems have been the most fun I've ever had in my career of toy soldiering. You do need a large board to do it justice though.
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Aug 14, 2016 15:53
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BeigeJacket posted:Agreed. What makes it worse is that when the two blocks meet players often end up rolling for individual guys in the front rank separately as this one is a character with the sword of whatever and this other one is the unit champion with some other trinket. I think in a good rules system, the scale is irrelevant. Kings of War is exactly the same game if your 100x40 Troop base has 10 28mm models or 50 6mm models. 28mm is cool because each model can support a lot of detail. 6-15mm is cool because of how many more models you can take.
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Aug 14, 2016 17:05
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Plus in a fantasy game, you can just take your 6mm based guys and throw em up against some other guy's 28mm guys and just claim your guys are Lilliputians 
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Aug 14, 2016 17:54
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Speleothing posted:Ummmm, sounds like you need to update your definition of party as your life progresses? Sitting around and chatting over wine & cards with 8 friends or having potluck desserts & cocktails with the church ladies are both just as much a "party" as binge drinking cheap beer around a bonfire or turning out the lights in the basement & setting up a sound-system. uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmm yeah, but my wife is a lot younger than me and isn't interested in dragging me to wine sipping affairs when she can drag me to loud parties.
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Aug 14, 2016 18:35
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fnordcircle posted:uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmm yeah, but my wife is a lot younger than me and isn't interested in dragging me to wine sipping affairs when she can drag me to loud parties. Sorry bro that's the price you pay for cradle robbing.
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Aug 14, 2016 18:39
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She saw how much I pull down as assistant manager of a jiffy lube and was all over it.
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Aug 14, 2016 19:08
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fnordcircle posted:She saw how much I pull down as assistant manager of a jiffy lube and was all over it. i just found a new career goal. namaste.
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Aug 14, 2016 19:18
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fnordcircle posted:She saw how much I pull down as assistant manager of a jiffy lube and was all over it. She misunderstood the lube reference?
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Aug 14, 2016 19:59
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Arcane Legions is still my favorite mass battle block move system. Each figure was more a representation of a fuckton of dudes. And depending on where each mini or type was on the base made the unit do different things like move faster, shoot more, have more defense dice to roll. It was loving sweet and felt like your unit was doing some rad maneuver poo poo or preparing to receive an enemy charge. WHICH COULD BE A GODDAMNED ROMAN LEGION OF STEAM ARMORED CENTURIONS ON BEARS. Course it was a Jordan Weisman game so it had large balance issues that never got fixed because only GW is allowed to have massive flaws in game and balance and get away with it. Every other minis game just dies because they don't have an enormous legion of fanboys slobbing on their knob no matter what they do. ( Nintendo is the videogame version of GW only they generally make things that aren't poo poo. Generally.) It was nicely priced with decent sculpts and a very fair setup of both prepaints, unpainted, and blind buys. Like they found a legit sweet spot. It was too beautiful for this world.
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Aug 14, 2016 20:05
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Since it seems likely that FFG and GW are in the process of undergoing a divorce, if you want to get in on any of the GW-licensed stuff they've made now seems to be the time. Chaos in the Old World and Forbidden Stars are legit good boardgames, and the Warhammer Adventure Card Game is supposed to be good but I guess won't be getting any further support so rip. Also Fury of Dracula is a GW license, so if you want to grab the new edition you should do so. On the other hand, FFG seems to be entering the fantasy rank-and-file miniatures market themselves with a game using a modified version of their X-Wing/Flightpath system, so units move using templates and commands are issued using a dual dial that both locks in the movement as well as some special order that modifies things. Unlike X-Wing it comes unpainted, I guess to keep costs down since it looks to be a larger scale of units in play at a time instead of 2-7 ships per side.
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Aug 14, 2016 20:22
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Kai Tave posted:Since it seems likely that FFG and GW are in the process of undergoing a divorce Really? Source?
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Aug 14, 2016 20:40
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As far as I know, it's just scuttlebutt brought on partly by the complete and total lack of new FFG products using GW's IPs at Gen Con.
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Aug 14, 2016 21:05
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NTRabbit posted:Really? Source? In addition to a bunch of stuff posted in the tg industry thread I think, ffg's lineup at gen con included zero new gw items.
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Aug 14, 2016 21:22
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They're also releasing new expacs for the 40K: Conquest LCG pretty quickly and have apparently been "no commenting" questions about future releases, along with nothing else for the newly released Warhammer ACG, etc. It's all rumor and speculation at this point, nothing concrete, but it seems like something's brewing.
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Aug 14, 2016 21:24
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Is it possible that the license is up for renegotiation soon? Because announcing a bunch of licensed games would be the dumbest thing to do prior to working out a deal.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:22
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It appears Order is winning the little Age of Sigmar global campaign, no way, who would've thought that the faction into which the most armies (and the most popular armies) were rolled would defeat the others what a shocking outcome I'm sure GW didn't plan for that to happen
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Aug 14, 2016 22:34
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Kai Tave posted:They're also releasing new expacs for the 40K: Conquest LCG pretty quickly and have apparently been "no commenting" questions about future releases, along with nothing else for the newly released Warhammer ACG, etc. It's all rumor and speculation at this point, nothing concrete, but it seems like something's brewing. Even if they stopped right now there would be some conquest expansions coming out for a few months as the develop cards well ahead of time.
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Aug 14, 2016 23:10
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Panzeh posted:Even if they stopped right now there would be some conquest expansions coming out for a few months as the develop cards well ahead of time. Well maybe. I remember how when Margaret Weiss Productions was making their Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game and Marvel suddenly terminated the license agreement, they had all of a week to tell people to buy what they wanted to because after that it was all coming down and a number of in-production supplements were killed before they managed to see publication, some of which were basically only waiting to get sent to the printer.
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Aug 14, 2016 23:49
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Pureauthor posted:Why would they AoS 40K? i can understand the logic people like forgeworld stuff -> we need an event to bring the primarchs back -> people liked the end times -> age of emperor
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Aug 15, 2016 01:57
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If my local area is any indication, they've definitely pulled a 'New Coke' of a sorts with AoS. Put it out with no points, people hate it, give it points and people come flocking to it. I guarantee if they had released it with points people would be making GBS threads on it for all the other issues, but because points were such a sticking point now people are giving it a pass and buying poo poo for it locally. The miracle of lowering expectations or something.
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Aug 15, 2016 02:03
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Safety Factor posted:The Dwarf book which came out just before the Wood Elves book was also pretty solid. I was seriously getting into building a new Dwarf army when End Times hit. dwarf man here: the dwarf book was good but it suffered in the same way most army books suffered. by the end of 8th there were two tiers of balance: elves/chaos/skaven and everyone else it also massively buffed the gunline mainstays while neutering almost everything interesting in the book. they also threw out most of the dwarf anti-magic without giving them anything in return. it would've been a way better book if they actually made runesmiths wizards and brought some of the slayer units back so you could've ran a slayer army with that one special character it was a C+/B- book that got trampled by all of the worst aspects of 8th (read: the magic phase) and it got pidgeonholed into a gunline army because the heavy infantry couldn't compete with the heavy infantry of other armies (savage orcs, executioners, chaos warriors, etc). edit: having great weapons and heavy armor meant that everything hit first against you, you almost never got an armor save, and 1 attack profiles meant you wouldn't do enough damage back. it was way easier (and cheaper) to throw a potential 20 organ gun shots into a unit than it was to throw 40 hammerers (which might get 20 hammer wounds on a unit after the counter attacks wipe out a third of the unit in the first round and you rolled average) Business Gorillas fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 02:06
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fnordcircle posted:If my local area is any indication, they've definitely pulled a 'New Coke' of a sorts with AoS. Put it out with no points, people hate it, give it points and people come flocking to it. I actually saw a game of AoS being played next to our game of Kings of War on Saturday. Whereas we set up, played, and cleaned up our 2000 point game in under 3 hours, they started before us and were still going well after we left. If you're familiar with KoW, 2000 points is quite a few regiments. The Aos game was a 2v2 where each player had a big baddie (High Elf Dragon, Seraphon (*sigh*) carnosaur, Nagash, a zombie dragon I think) and then a unit or two of support. Nothing really seemed to happen except everything got gradually closer to the middle of the board. Edit: Oh and they spent a lot of time reading over the rules.
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Aug 15, 2016 02:32
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