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Majorian posted:Yeah, the emphasis was meant to be on the "enforced" part of "enforced secularism." Actually, if it isn't sufficiently enforced, a tiny number of extremists is enough to break the entire shared public space. You will also note that the proportion of theists is decreasing and that the thing where most don't use their beliefs to oppress other people has only come about after centuries of increasing secularism. European history tells us that all churches are barely-constrained power hungry organisations that must be kept well-domesticated for the good of society, and I don't see convincing counter examples anywhere else. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 19:11
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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mobby_6kl posted:It's cool, they're just taking back goose stepping. After all the British goose stepped years before the Prussians. But more seriously, there will always be some demand for the sort of industrial aesthetic associated with fascist artists, so it's good if there are bands reclaiming that space with politically safe messages - I think even Laibach is just a bunch of edgelords with no right-wing slant? Though I think that's also the reasoning behind Christian rock / metal, so maybe I'm loving wrong.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:18
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blowfish posted:Actually, if it isn't sufficiently enforced, a tiny number of extremists is enough to break the entire shared public space. That's simply untrue. The fact that the U.S. has done a considerably better job of bringing Muslims into the fold, yet is considerably less discriminatory in its enforcement of Western norms, is proof of this. quote:European history tells us that all churches are barely-constrained power hungry organisations that must be kept well-domesticated for the good of society, and I don't see convincing counter examples anywhere else. Whereas militant atheism's record is somehow less bloody, oppressive, and power-hungry, in your mind. Got it.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:19
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Majorian posted:Yeah, the emphasis was meant to be on the "enforced" part of "enforced secularism."
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Aug 15, 2016 19:20
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Majorian posted:That's simply untrue. The fact that the U.S. has done a considerably better job of bringing Muslims into the fold, yet is considerably less discriminatory in its enforcement of Western norms, is proof of this. But there are proportionately few Muslims in the US compared to European countries where Islam is an issue.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:23
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Muslims aren't the ones making it an issue however.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:26
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steinrokkan posted:After all the British goose stepped years before the Prussians. Rammstein doesn't even really do that. They just enjoy using things people aren't comfortable with. They grew up in East Berlin where media was censored strictly, so they express themselves in a really out there way. If they do something like goose step during a live show and it's meant to make people draw that connection, it's along the same lines of them making music videos with a bunch of muscley dudes all oiled up, or using a giant dick cannon to spray the crowd with fake jizz. Or having fake gay sex on stage. Or blowing up baby dolls with bombs. If there's something you want buried and dead or as far away from you as possible, they want to put it right in your face. Majorian posted:That's simply untrue. The fact that the U.S. has done a considerably better job of bringing Muslims into the fold, yet is considerably less discriminatory in its enforcement of Western norms, is proof of this. We have huh. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 19:28
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there's also a huge gap between the general muslim community in the US, being as i understand it mainly indigenous black people and relatively well-off immigrants, and the mainly working-class or even destitute muslim foreigners in europe wealthy, educated people are much easier to integrate than those who are less so - or, at least, they'll have enough vested interests in the country of their residence that they're not going to start too much trouble, on a whole
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Aug 15, 2016 19:29
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R. Mute posted:What's "enforced secularism" to you, then? Stuff like banning clothing that is predominantly worn by Muslim women out of piety, for example. That sort of thing signals to the Muslim minority that their values are incompatible with the West's, which is not a message you want to send if you want them to integrate. steinrokkan posted:But there are proportionately few Muslims in the US compared to European countries where Islam is an issue. I don't buy that the proportion of Muslims is the issue, though. All available evidence suggests that it has more to do with the fact that Muslims in Europe have been kept largely on the economic, social, and cultural periphery of European society. While Islamophobia does exist in the U.S., part of why someone like Donald Trump running for President is so shocking, is because legislating against a specific religious group is seen by most Americans as a bridge too far. Volkerball posted:
Yeah, well, like I said earlier, it's mind-boggling to me that the U.S. has this more figured out than Europe. That doesn't mean we aren't also frequently really racist and Islamophobic though.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:39
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What is the reason for which they weren't kept on the margins? It's not like Americans are enlightened about integrating minorities in general, as evidenced by -just any page of any newspaper-. Either it's because the Muslim immigrants are (self)selected to preclude common risk factors, or there is some sort of intersectionality at play that leads to divergent results in integrating Muslims in the US and Europe.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:47
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To be fair Europe is terrible on minority issues.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:48
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steinrokkan posted:What is the reason for which they weren't kept on the margins? It's not like Americans are enlightened about integrating minorities in general, as evidenced by -just any page of any newspaper-. Either it's because the Muslim immigrants are (self)selected to preclude common risk factors, or there is some sort of intersectionality at play that leads to divergent results in integrating Muslims in the US and Europe. It's because America is a melting pot.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:50
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steinrokkan posted:What is the reason for which they weren't kept on the margins? It's not like Americans are enlightened about integrating minorities in general, as evidenced by -just any page of any newspaper-. Either it's because the Muslim immigrants are (self)selected to preclude common risk factors, or there is some sort of intersectionality at play that leads to divergent results in integrating Muslims in the US and Europe. Because we killed them all in traffic disputes and won't let any others in.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:49
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Majorian posted:That's simply untrue. The fact that the U.S. has done a considerably better job of bringing Muslims into the fold, yet is considerably less discriminatory in its enforcement of Western norms, is proof of this. quote:Whereas militant atheism's record is somehow less bloody, oppressive, and power-hungry, in your mind. Got it. Oh yes, militant atheists such as ... (of course you're going to say Stalin like an idiot. maybe mao or pol pot if you're capable of googling "communist leaders") suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 19:50
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drilldo squirt posted:To be fair every major country that exists is terrible on minority issues.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:52
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Good to see that Drilldo is still acting like Europe is a country
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Aug 15, 2016 19:53
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Andrast posted:Good to see that Drilldo is still acting like Europe is a country Of course. Either he's an American, or a millennial who has acquired approximately 100% of his political opinions on US-based dead gay web forums. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 19:54
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Majorian posted:Stuff like banning clothing that is predominantly worn by Muslim women out of piety, for example. That sort of thing signals to the Muslim minority that their values are incompatible with the West's, which is not a message you want to send if you want them to integrate. That said, it seems somewhat unfair to associate these bans with secularism as they're ultimately just veiled racism.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:56
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steinrokkan posted:What is the reason for which they weren't kept on the margins? It's not like Americans are enlightened about integrating minorities in general, as evidenced by -just any page of any newspaper-. Either it's because the Muslim immigrants are (self)selected to preclude common risk factors, or there is some sort of intersectionality at play that leads to divergent results in integrating Muslims in the US and Europe. There is certainly quite a bit of intersectionality at play, including the fact that Muslims in America tend to come from a wider gamut of countries than Muslims in Europe. A greater proportion of European Muslims come from countries that were once colonized by European powers. (Algeria being an obvious example) So there's some pre-existing rawness there. But there's also quite a bit of job, housing, and educational discrimination by the non-Muslim majority against the Muslim minority - Amnesty International had a big report on the topic a few years ago. So discriminatory legislation isn't a helpful thing to pile on top of all of this. R. Mute posted:That said, it seems somewhat unfair to associate these bans with secularism as they're ultimately just veiled racism. That's a fair distinction.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:57
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steinrokkan posted:What is the reason for which they weren't kept on the margins? It's not like Americans are enlightened about integrating minorities in general, as evidenced by -just any page of any newspaper-. Either it's because the Muslim immigrants are (self)selected to preclude common risk factors, or there is some sort of intersectionality at play that leads to divergent results in integrating Muslims in the US and Europe. I don't know if Americans are more enlightened about integrating minorities in general. There is no global paucity of xenophobia, that is for sure. But refugee groups in the US, Muslims included, have generally been quite successful at obtaining jobs and creating their own communities without them becoming jobless ghettos, as is unfortunately the case in many places. In the US, blacks often have it worse than most refugees from what i looked at - draw what conclusions you want from that. It is a fair point that America doesn't take in many refugees considering its size, though. It makes it pretty hard to bitch.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:56
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There seems to be something inherently flawed in pointing to the US as an example where there are no issues with homegrown Islamic extremism, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:00
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Volkerball posted:pointing to the US as an example where there are no issues with homegrown Islamic extremism No one's doing that, Volkerball.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:03
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blowfish posted:Of course. Either he's an American, or a millennial who has acquired approximately 100% of his political opinions on US-based dead gay web forums. I'm American but that doesn't change the fact that europeans have issues with minorities being treated like literal second class citizens, I mean how many of your countries have birthright citizenship? Their is a reason for that.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:02
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blowfish posted:Of course. Either he's an American, or a millennial who has acquired approximately 100% of his political opinions on US-based dead gay web forums. I don't think you've got much room to talk, given that all of your opinions are recycled San Harris BS. 
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Aug 15, 2016 20:07
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Majorian posted:No one's doing that, Volkerball. Then what is your evidence that shows that the US is less hostile towards Muslims than Europe. Specifically Germany, who let in a million refugees from the Middle East as opposed to the US' like 2,000 highly vetted individuals. We've got all the rallies, hate speech, terrorism, and ISIS recruitment that those nations all do.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:06
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I don't know if Americans are more enlightened about integrating minorities in general. There is no global paucity of xenophobia, that is for sure. But refugee groups in the US, Muslims included, have generally been quite successful at obtaining jobs and creating their own communities without them becoming jobless ghettos, as is unfortunately the case in many places. In the US, blacks often have it worse than most refugees from what i looked at - draw what conclusions you want from that. In America, the understanding seems to be that immigrants are soon-to-be Americans who have regular American jobs, regular American homes and eventually become regular American citizens (or at least their kids will). In Europe, immigrants were often considered guest workers who would be builders and craftsmen and poo poo for a while and then gently caress off back home once Hmmm I wonder whether fourty years of kicking the can down the road instead of developing coherent policy could have contributed to any problems in integrating immigrants 
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Aug 15, 2016 20:13
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Volkerball posted:Then what is your evidence that shows that the US is less hostile towards Muslims than Europe. In terms of codified discrimination, well, that's pretty obvious: the U.S. doesn't legislate against the religious practices of Muslims (or most religious groups, for that matter), full stop. In terms of other forms of discrimination: (yes, it's the Economist, but it's based off of Pew numbers) quote:America’s Muslims are better off than their European co-religionists. They are almost as likely as other Americans to report a household income of $100,000 or more. The same cannot be said of the Pakistanis who came to work in the now-defunct textile mills of northern England or the Turks who became guest workers in West Germany. Many American Muslims arrived in the 1970s to complete their higher education and ended up staying. Muzammil Siddiqi, chairman of the Fiqh Council of North America, which issues fatwas, or religious opinions, to guide the behaviour of the country’s Muslims, is typical: he was born in India and holds a Harvard PhD in comparative religion.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:14
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Majorian posted:In terms of codified discrimination, well, that's pretty obvious: the U.S. doesn't legislate against the religious practices of Muslims (or most religious groups, for that matter), full stop. Many (most?) European countries don't do that either.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:16
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Andrast posted:Many European countries don't do that either. Almost all of them, in fact.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:17
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Majorian posted:In terms of codified discrimination, well, that's pretty obvious: the U.S. doesn't legislate against the religious practices of Muslims (or most religious groups, for that matter), full stop. In terms of other forms of discrimination: (yes, it's the Economist, but it's based off of Pew numbers) So basically what your evidence is saying: 1) a bunch of highly US-educated (and probably rich) immigrants arrived in America and did well 2) a bunch of poorly educated immigrants arrived in 3) a bunch of poorly educated immigrants arrived in America and also did badly. Hmmm I see a pattern there.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:21
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blowfish posted:So basically what your evidence is saying: If that were the totality of my argument, sure, that would be a weak argument. Luckily, I did post that Amnesty International study, which you should probably look at. The Economist piece was posted in response to Volkerball asking how I'm certain that Muslims are better-integrated in the U.S. than in countries like France and Belgium. Andrast posted:Many (most?) European countries don't do that either. I'm aware. I'm referring primarily to countries like France and Belgium, which have disproportionately high rates of DAESH recruitment. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 20:22
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Majorian posted:If that were the totality of my argument, sure, that would be a weak argument. Luckily, I did post that Amnesty International study, which you should probably look at. quote:I'm aware. I'm referring primarily to countries like France and Belgium, which have disproportionately high rates of DAESH recruitment. Additionally, why isn't daesh on a recruiting spree in supremely racist Austria and Switzerland???? It's still the economy, stupid
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Aug 15, 2016 20:26
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blowfish posted:In America, the understanding seems to be that immigrants are soon-to-be Americans who have regular American jobs, regular American homes and eventually become regular American citizens (or at least their kids will). That's racist of the europeans.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:31
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blowfish posted:It's the economy, stupid. It's really not. The evidence pretty strongly suggests that the economy's just one facet out of many. You should actually read the Amnesty piece. blowfish posted:And Germany, which is not like France and Belgium. Again, you should read the Amensty piece: quote:The views expressed in several opinion polls undertaken in Europe on Muslims or religious
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Aug 15, 2016 20:32
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blowfish posted:In America, the understanding seems to be that immigrants are soon-to-be Americans who have regular American jobs, regular American homes and eventually become regular American citizens (or at least their kids will). So European countries are victims of the proximity between themselves and Muslim countries, which allowed unintended residual populations from temporary migration waves to build up to levels where solving their social issue became fiscally unsustainable? Meanwhile the people who undertook the much greater task of immigrating across the Atlantic did so willing to start from scratch?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:35
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Majorian posted:It's really not. The evidence pretty strongly suggests that the economy's just one facet out of many. You should actually read the Amnesty piece. And 45% of multiethnic America thinks Donald "kill the brown mooslims and deport all Mexicans" Trump is a viable presidential candidate. lovely public opinion is universal, it's immigration policy where the difference lies. steinrokkan posted:So European countries are victims of the proximity between themselves and Muslim countries, which allowed unintended residual populations from temporary migration waves to build up to levels where solving their social issue became fiscally unsustainable? Meanwhile the people who undertook the much greater task of immigrating across the Atlantic did so willing to start from scratch? I suspect that this is at least a large contributing factor. Also note that immigrant groups that were generally understood to be settling permanently rather than to boost the economy for a few years have tended to integrate with very few problems. For example, Russlanddeutsche in Germany. I assume someone (possibly Majorian) will now point out that Russians are also white, but reality points out that Russians and Eastern Europeans were considered Slavic Untermenschen only a few years earlier  and are still at least as hated as Arabs and Pakistanis e.g. in Britain.
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 20:43
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blowfish posted:And 45% of multiethnic America thinks Donald "kill the brown mooslims and deport all Mexicans" Trump is a viable presidential candidate. The number's way less than 45% actually ("likely voters" is far from the same thing as the U.S. population writ large), and he's probably going to lose pretty catastrophically. quote:lovely public opinion is universal, it's immigration policy where the difference lies. Well, and racist, discriminatory laws that target religious minorities. Those should be avoided, in a non-awful, modern society. Now read the piece that I posted, maybe you'll learn something.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:45
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The fiscal death spiral of the Eurozone is contributing to racist attitudes but racism and xenophobia is a multi-faceted thing. The solution is to annex Switzerland, deport anyone to the right of Merkel and then move the Austrians displaced from my previous proposal there. Then provide Schäuble to the Donetsk Peoples Republic. No reason in particular I just don't like him.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:52
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Actually the solution is to find some living space where Europeans could get along in harmony as peaceful rural workers.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:54
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steinrokkan posted:Actually the solution is to find some living space where Europeans could get along in harmony as peaceful rural workers. Okay you can join the Swiss diaspora for your cheek.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:56
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