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I'm starting to think forums poster Moridin doesn't really understand how the law works.
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Aug 15, 2016 18:24
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you assholes went just five minutes ago, i'm not pulling over again
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Aug 15, 2016 18:25
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Moridin920 posted:that doesn't mean people are allowed to refuse facility access or services based on minority prejudices Fat people are not a protected class you can discriminate against them without consequence. Trannies too.
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Aug 15, 2016 18:26
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The Kingfish posted:I'm starting to think forums poster Moridin doesn't really understand how the law works. I suggest you look at the Americans with Disabilities Act Amendments Act which specifically protects fatties from what you just said was allowed you loving moron
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Aug 15, 2016 18:26
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The Kingfish posted:Fat people are not a protected class you can discriminate against them without consequence. Trannies too. too bad courts have ruled obesity is a protected disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act Amendments Act you fuckin stooooge
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Aug 15, 2016 18:28
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*goons furiously googling the ADA*
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Aug 15, 2016 18:28
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You would know!!
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Aug 15, 2016 18:30
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i have to wait until legislative changes specifically codify trans people as a protected minority group and until then I am allowed to be a lovely human being because that is what passes for ethics around my parts also i'll argue against said changes tooth and nail for my right to kick people out of bathrooms bc frankly I don't see why trans people should be a protected minority at all i mean after all they can just dress the right way HONK HONK
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Aug 15, 2016 18:31
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Moridin920 posted:that doesn't mean people are allowed to refuse facility access or services based on minority prejudices Using "minority prejudices" is an extremely disgenuous and I'm not sure if you're being sincere in your professed confusion. You're willfully ignoring perfectly reasonable queries to white noise post nonsensical responses. You're not a D&D cretin, stop acting like one. Moridin920 posted:I suggest you look at the Americans with Disabilities Act Amendments Act which specifically protects fatties from what you just said was allowed you loving moron If fat people is a disability than 70 percent of the loving country is disabled now. That's a really useless law.
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Aug 15, 2016 18:35
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Using "minority prejudices" is an extremely disgenuous and I'm not sure if you're being sincere in your professed confusion. You're willfully ignoring perfectly reasonable queries to white noise post nonsensical responses. You're not a D&D cretin, stop acting like one. Here's a reasonable query that no one answered: how do you legally enforce bathroom separation stuff? Do you really want to make it a police matter every time someone thinks 'hey that woman is a bit ugly I bet she's not really a woman.' 8-Bit Scholar posted:If fat people is a disability than 70 percent of the loving country is disabled now. That's a really useless law. i'm not going to argue that either way, I'd simply like acknowledgment that that dude said X in a super smug way and then said I know poo poo about laws and then within a minute I posted the exact piece of legislation proving him wrong dog
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Aug 15, 2016 18:37
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I looked it up and I'm mostly right and you're mostly wrong. You just can't discriminate against people who weigh 100% more than they ought to.
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Aug 15, 2016 18:41
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Moridin920 posted:Here's a reasonable query that no one answered: how do you legally enforce bathroom separation stuff? Do you really want to make it a police matter every time someone thinks 'hey that woman is a bit ugly I bet she's not really a woman.' No, which is precisely my point. The law has no place legislating in any way, I've told you this multiple times. You've refused to make meaningful responses and you're absolutely wrong about equivocating black persons to trans people, it's entire different circumstances. Nobody is entitled to their choice of gender. Agree or Disagree?
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Aug 15, 2016 18:40
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shut the gently caress UP MORDOIN PISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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Aug 15, 2016 18:43
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8-Bit Scholar posted:No, which is precisely my point. The law has no place legislating in any way, I've told you this multiple times. You've refused to make meaningful responses and you're absolutely wrong about equivocating black persons to trans people, it's entire different circumstances. But my point is that poo poo tons of morons around the country ARE passing those laws and ARE acting like major dickbags so it can't hurt to just add another group to the 'hey don't loving discriminate against these people' laws that exist because we decided they are good things to have in general. It absolutely ties back into black people; a bunch of private business owners decided they could discriminate against black people for being black so we had to pass the Civil Rights Act (and get some SCOTUS decisions too). Now we have people deciding they can discriminate against trans people because trans isn't really a real thing anyway and they can just switch genders to better conform to the group. 8-Bit Scholar posted:Nobody is entitled to their choice of gender. Agree or Disagree? I don't really know what you mean by this so I'm going to not answer. idc what gender people have or if they think they can or can't choose it. It's not my loving business, nor is it my loving business to inspect everyone's genitalia at the urinal. whether or not gender is different from race because you can get surgery and put different clothes on is immaterial. I still have no right to discriminate. And I feel like you guys are making it seem like switching gender is super fuckin' easy and people flip back and forth all the time uh it's not like that at all morons we're not quite in the Culture yet. Tell someone who has had their penis removed that it's cool they can just be a boy again when they need to use the bathroom.
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Aug 15, 2016 18:47
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mods please move this thread to cccc for processing before flushing it
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Aug 15, 2016 18:47
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Also no one has loving said PEEP about 'what about women getting kicked out from the bathroom because some other idiot thought she was too ugly to be a real woman' except to handwave it away with 'barely ever happens.' as long as we're talking about disingenuous
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Aug 15, 2016 18:50
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people are entitled to use a bathroom like a normal person without having some shrill bitch or weird dude telling them their pee is going into the wrong toilet
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Aug 15, 2016 18:52
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Moridin920 posted:And I feel like you guys are making it seem like switching gender is super fuckin' easy and people flip back and forth all the time uh it's not like that at all morons we're not quite in the Culture yet. Tell someone who has had their penis removed that it's cool they can just be a boy again when they need to use the bathroom. Isn't that exactly what gender fluid people claim to be? Are you only trans if you have the surgery then? In that case, aren't you now a woman, and not trans at all? Also lol, agree or disagree? Do you believe that one has a right to be the gender of their choice? Are they entitled to it?
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Aug 15, 2016 18:51
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WHILE YOU ALL ARGUE ABOUT IT IM TIRED OF WAITING IM PISSING ON THE FLOOR!
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Aug 15, 2016 18:51
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Isn't that exactly what gender fluid people claim to be? Are you only trans if you have the surgery then? In that case, aren't you now a woman, and not trans at all? it's not loving relevant dude, you don't get to decide for other people what gender they really are thus what bathroom they are allowed to use you're not king poo poo of the universe don't you get how that attitude is exactly what leads to 'hey that women is ugly she can't REALLY be a woman let's kick her outta here?' why are you so hateful ffs just let people piss where they want
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Aug 15, 2016 18:52
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Moridin920 posted:it's not loving relevant dude, you don't get to decide for other people what gender they really are thus what bathroom they are allowed to use So you do not believe that gender-specific bathrooms are worthwhile, and all bathrooms should thus be gender neutral then?
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Aug 15, 2016 18:52
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8-Bit Scholar posted:So you do not believe that gender-specific bathrooms are worthwhile, and all bathrooms should thus be gender neutral then? gender specific bathrooms are absolutely worthwhile as a social convention. Nah we don't need one for every single different genderfluid whatever out there but men's and women's at least is just fine. you're like an autist going 'beep boop but that is INEFFICIENT'
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Aug 15, 2016 18:53
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also you act like gender neutral bathrooms don't exist already and hi they do and there's a lot of them and that's fine too
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Aug 15, 2016 18:55
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Moridin920 posted:gender specific bathrooms are absolutely worthwhile as a social convention. but you just said Moridin920 posted:people are entitled to use a bathroom like a normal person without having some shrill bitch or weird dude telling them their pee is going into the wrong toilet so if anyone can use any bathroom they want, doesn't that already invalidate the gender segregation? If you think people shouldn't get upset if the seemingly "wrong" gender uses said toilet facility, then why even have the distinctions at all? Again, I'm not advocating for anything at all, I am inquiring as to what reasoning lies behind this. I made a point of saying that it seems impossible for anyone to discuss this without entering into a frothing rage, which you seem to be doing. Why? You can hurl abuse all you want, but this isn't an unreasonable line of inquiry.
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Aug 15, 2016 18:59
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One room is for stand peeing it just had a floor tilted towards a drain in the corner. The other room is for sitting down and has a ton of turlets. Both rooms are for white land owning males only everyone else poops outside around back.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:01
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I don't care if you're a dude and you want to wear a dress. Cool, more power to you. I may not think chopping off your dick is the best idea, but it's a free country. I don't even care what bathroom you use. What irks me is when mentally ill people invent various pronouns, insist that everyone call them that and scream bigotry if someone misgenders them. It's basically like if a crazy person thinks they're a dragon or a unicorn, you have to pretend that's the case and encourage their delusions when it's really not the case. I think you can believe whatever you like, but I can also think whatever I want and don't care for people trying to force me to say things I don't believe are true. I think the very concept of gender identity itself is stupid. What sex you are is determined by what parts your born with and the chromosomes you have. Sometimes babies don't come out right and are a little of both, but that's fairly rare. Everyone keeps talking about how brave
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Aug 15, 2016 19:01
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8-Bit Scholar posted:but you just said violating a social norm isn't a legal matter whatsoever dog and that's the difference. I want 0 government resources used to enforce men's/women's bathroom segregation crap. the only reason we can't just keep everything as is without expanding minority protections is because some nutters are now harassing people in bathrooms about it and some idiot states are even passing clearly unconstitutional bullshit about it too earlier I said as current laws stand a private property owner can give you the boot for using the 'wrong' bathroom in violation of posted policies, but I also said I think that's some bullshit that will get legislated away sooner or later just like 'we don't rent rooms to black people' was eventually. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 19:05
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Moridin920 posted:violating a social norm isn't a legal matter whatsoever dog and that's the difference. I want 0 government resources used to enforce men's/women's bathroom segregation crap. Okay, with you so far. please vote gary johnson 2016 quote:the only reason we can't just keep everything as is without expanding minority protections is because some nutters are now harassing people in bathrooms about it and some idiot states are even passing clearly unconstitutional bullshit about it too So a few isolated incidences require minority protections being expanded? I don't think I agree, what protections needs be expanded? If a man goes into a woman's restroom or a woman goes into a man's restroom and the occupants of that restroom object, then the government, by your acknowledgement, shouldn't be pressed to interfere, and this is a social norm. As such, socially, it is unacceptable for trans persons to use the restroom of their chosen gender unless they can "pass" as that gender. Which you'd furiously said didn't matter earlier. And I don't think the right to choose your gender is something that warrants government protection--I don't believe that is a right, and you've not stated that you do either. You also can't seem to settle on whether you think private business owners should be the be-all, end-all voice on this matter or not--you say they have the right to deny use of their facilities, but then say that legislative protections will ultimately strip them of that. You want it both ways.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:16
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8-Bit Scholar posted:So a few isolated incidences require minority protections being expanded? I don't think I agree, what protections needs be expanded? If a man goes into a woman's restroom or a woman goes into a man's restroom and the occupants of that restroom object, then the government, by your acknowledgement, shouldn't be pressed to interfere, and this is a social norm. As such, socially, it is unacceptable for trans persons to use the restroom of their chosen gender unless they can "pass" as that gender. I already posted a few. They may be isolated incidences now (not sure how entire states passing discriminatory legislation is an isolated incident but ok) but it will only ramp up as the attitude of 'I'm allowed to police dicks and vaginas in my bathroom to make sure I'm not grossed out' gets more acceptable. The protection should be: you can't deny individuals services or use of facilities based on X. X being race, gender, sexuality, etc. Trans people definitely fall into that umbrella. Simple. quote:As such, socially, it is unacceptable for trans persons to use the restroom of their chosen gender unless they can "pass" as that gender. this is meaningless as a policy because it's too vague and up to whoever decides 'you don't pass.' What is your litmus test for not passing? What if they are Buck Angel? Is law enforcement going to have to come out every time there's an issue to do a genital check because we can't just let the person saying they are a woman use the woman's restroom? Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 19:18
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I mean sorry but you can't just handwave away isolated incidents or fringe cases like Buck Angel when you're talking about making policy. The devil is in the details.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:23
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Moridin920 posted:The protection should be: you can't deny individuals services or use of facilities based on X. X being race, gender, sexuality, etc. Trans people definitely fall into that umbrella. Simple. I suppose that seems reasonable, although again, I'm not entirely sure I'm on board with it still, on the basis that men could and likely would take advantage of such protections to try and get away with perverse things. Mostly I'm in full agreement with this post: Gammatron 64 posted:I don't care if you're a dude and you want to wear a dress. Cool, more power to you. I may not think chopping off your dick is the best idea, but it's a free country. I don't even care what bathroom you use. So I'm a little wary of the law legitimizing this sort of thing, particularly now that we're allowing children to undergo hormone therapy and surgeries. Again, this should not have been phrased as a civil rights issue and I'm honestly of the opinion that it shouldn't have saddled the gay rights movement either, gender identity is NOT remotely similar to either racial identity nor sexual preference.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:23
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8-Bit Scholar posted:So I'm a little wary of the law legitimizing this sort of thing, particularly now that we're allowing children to undergo hormone therapy and surgeries. Again, this should not have been phrased as a civil rights issue and I'm honestly of the opinion that it shouldn't have saddled the gay rights movement either, gender identity is NOT remotely similar to either racial identity nor sexual preference. well that's a different argument imo and yeah idk I personally like to err on the side of being more permissive but obv I agree that kids don't really have the ability to make such a decision at an early age. I don't think including trans people as a protected minority group would legitimize all that poo poo necessarily though, nor do I think that if it isn't legit bathroom use is the hill to be dying on. plus, quote:It's basically like if a crazy person thinks they're a dragon or a unicorn, you have to pretend that's the case and encourage their delusions when it's really not the case. unless they are insisting we build specific 'dragon' facilities for their use I don't reaaally see the issue. Yeah they're weirdos but... so what?
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Aug 15, 2016 19:25
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ITT: people who are ~!*TrIgGeReD*!~ by the possibility of people using a bathroom that doesn't correspond to their birth sex8-Bit Scholar posted:So a few isolated incidences require minority protections being expanded? I don't think I agree, what protections needs be expanded? If a man goes into a woman's restroom or a woman goes into a man's restroom and the occupants of that restroom object, then the government, by your acknowledgement, shouldn't be pressed to interfere, and this is a social norm. As such, socially, it is unacceptable for trans persons to use the restroom of their chosen gender unless they can "pass" as that gender. This sounds pretty much like a tacit endorsement of mob justice quote:Which you'd furiously said didn't matter earlier. And I don't think the right to choose your gender is something that warrants government protection--I don't believe that is a right, and you've not stated that you do either. You also can't seem to settle on whether you think private business owners should be the be-all, end-all voice on this matter or not--you say they have the right to deny use of their facilities, but then say that legislative protections will ultimately strip them of that. You want it both ways. No contradiction here, they currently have the "right" to do so but that's an oversight that will be corrected as the collective understanding of trans rights broadens.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:26
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I keep thinking Genderfluid / Genderqueer will be the thing that sinks this. It's certainly where I stopped my support. At least transpeople try before asking for concession from society. They try to be accepted as a man or woman. Genderqueer people will accept nothing less than total rejection of what gender means to most people and use of imaginary pronouns (xir, they, ze) and put in no work other than wearing both lipstick and a bowtie.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:27
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"Imaginary pronouns", as opposed to all those "real" pronouns that were handed down when God dictated the Oxford English Dictionary to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Also "they" imaginary? The singular "they" is pretty mainstream English and arguably has been for a while.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:29
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Gammatron 64 posted:
As well as a toe-dipping enthusiast in vehicular homicide.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:29
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is it really that much of a concession to let them pee in whatever bathroom though I mean are you people *really* that sensitive? It's like talking to people who are worried about a gay man checking their penis out at the urinal. Who loving cares. I personally could not care less who is in the stall next to me as long as they aren't letting out rancid farts. Like I said you can plastic surgery a donkey dick onto your forehead for all I care what the gently caress does any of this really matter in the face of actual issues like the economy or whatever?
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Aug 15, 2016 19:29
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How dare anyone demand that I slightly amend my language. Obviously, in order to request such an absurd concession, they should have to completely change their lifestyle, including undergoing painful and highly invasive surgery or at least hormone therapy.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:31
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my policy on that is I'm just going to keep saying he/she but if you say 'actually could you call me X' I'll shrug and use X instead when talking to you or referring to you. Again, simple. Nothing super complicated to remember. not like language is static forever anyway and again, who cares?
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Aug 15, 2016 19:32
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Aschlafly posted:"Imaginary pronouns", as opposed to all those "real" pronouns that were handed when God dictated the Oxford English Dictionary to Moses on Mt. Sinai. "Oh you went to the doctor? What did they say?" - you're right, checks out. "Oh you went to the doctor? What did xir say?" - Bullshit (Lol a genderqueer doctor!) "This is my friend Cam, they studies Womyn and Gender studies" - Bullshit "This is my friend Cam, Xir studies Womyn and Gender studies" - Unsurprising, still nonsense.
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Aug 15, 2016 19:34
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