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https://twitter.com/workmanalice/status/765449240982073345
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 11:18 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 01:41 |
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Starshark posted:Bit hypocritical you being opposed to imperialism, don't you think, Xerxes? BlitzkriegOfColour posted:Have you considered that great power imperialism is only ever kept in check by other great power imperialism, and with the US being so much more insanely powerful (and also, insane and powerful) there is literally nothing to keep its imperialism in check? I mean, if you really assess the situation, you'd be willing to let the Russian/Chinese empires expand a little in order to check the US. Otherwise they're just going to continue to encircle everyone, as they do now. Please see: BBJoey posted:For real tho do the people who are subsumed by China and Russia 'expanding a little' get a say or are their needs secondary to ensuring the great video game that is international geopolitics is well balanced? If Poland, the Baltic, Romania etc are all going "please help us out NATO" in regards to Russia. I don't see it as expanding NATO influence to encircle Russia but rather people seeking protection from something that's harmed them in the past. This is fair and reasonable. Vietnam, Korea, Philippines, etc are all asking for backing against Chinese expansion I'm guessing it's not because Uncle Sam is keeping poor 'ol plucky China down. It's because China is an rear end in a top hat and is starting poo poo with all it's neighbors. For gently caress sake, if Vietnam, who the USA waged chemical and conventional warfare on for decades is now is happy to let bygones be bygones in return for backing against China, that says it all really. The people/governments of these two regions are against the idea of being consigned to their respective regional power's "sphere of influence". I am in no way willing to let Russian/Chinese empires expand because that just means I am consigning millions of people to live under lovely hegemonies that I would never want to have over myself, as BBjoey says, for the videogame model of geopolitics. Cartoon posted:Allow me to ask. Why do you think the first world war was really stupid? That was what I used as my comparison. I didn't just pluck it out of my arse for no reason. While you're pondering that. I think the first world war was loving stupid because it was a bunch of European Empires jockeying for advantage that we had no skin in. But this is not 100 years ago. I agree, there are a lot of steps that should be tried before war and I am not in any way arguing for a War. However we cannot throw our regional neighbors under the bus and that means we have to put some money where our mouths are. I also don't think China's belligerence is going to be countered with words and treaties as if they were going to, they already would have. The current driving force behind the CCP right now is revaunchist ethno-nationalism with their "century of humiliation" narrative. Christ, just look at the way they flipped the gently caress out about Horton's drug cheating comment, or how they rejected the south China Sea international court ruling before it was even released. Quite unfortunately, the way I see things going is that the major thing that deters the CCP is military force. They leave Japan alone because it actually has a credible deterrent. The Philippines has jack poo poo and as a result is getting pushed around. I mean, this 9-dash line is totally the idea of a reasonable and diplomatic government that is interested in fairness and international law.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 12:19 |
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cheese-cube posted:if anyone is interested in the aus census stuff my buddy actually worked there for several years in an infosec role and still keeps in touch with the people working there so he's fed me some tidbits: Amazin.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 12:59 |
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Also hey if I dont want my energy coming from one of the lovely major providers, what are my options in Victoria? Powershop's advertising is everywhere, who else is in the field that's decently renewable?
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:04 |
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Momentum Energy has been pretty good in my experience.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:11 |
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:20 |
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they're doing you a service
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:29 |
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Anidav posted:Prime Minister Hunt would be a coal miners wet dream. I'd participate in a Prime Minister Hunt.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:45 |
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Lookit dis poo poo. They claim areas that are beyond Vietnam from where they are. They claim areas that come practically to the coast of Malaysia and Brunei but are extremely distant from their own coasts. There is no basis to any of these claims except for an old map they dug out of somewhere and can't explain to anyone where it came from. This isn't a case of being reasonable. It's a gross claim that can't possibly be justified and the fact that they're trying to press it with military force can't be defended. This is awful, awful behaviour.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:45 |
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So do freedom of navigation exercises, don't recognise their claims and protect shipping. There's no need to call for war. e:Still think appeasement over the waters and then standing firm if they try anything more is the more sensible option that lets both sides save face. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Aug 16, 2016 |
# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:48 |
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SynthOrange posted:Also hey if I dont want my energy coming from one of the lovely major providers, what are my options in Victoria? Powershop's advertising is everywhere, who else is in the field that's decently renewable? Powershop has been pretty good for me, been using them at my rental Or don't read any News Corpse media
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 13:50 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:So do freedom of navigation exercises, don't recognise their claims and protect shipping. There's no need to call for war. also natsec wonks will always be jerking their misshapen dicks to the idea of a cataclysmic war, that they are raring to have a war with china should not be taken as broad us policy consensus that war is the solution.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 14:09 |
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AgentF posted:They claim areas that come practically to the coast of Malaysia and Brunei I'm sure this all historical and not to do with oil reserves no sir.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 14:12 |
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 14:23 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:So do freedom of navigation exercises, don't recognise their claims and protect shipping. There's no need to call for war. There are quotes from the china.jpg threads that I will adapt here. "The CCP neither appreciates nor returns displays of goodwill. Their attitude can be summed up with 'What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine." If you give in to the CCP here, they will only get worse. Also "both sides saving face" is a farcical idea as just lookit dat map. You're asking countries to give up huge swathes of thier EEZ to appease the bully. That would be humiliation to them and a signal from us that we won't help them.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 14:33 |
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Amethyst?
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 14:33 |
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https://twitter.com/davpope/status/765518834333659136 Best Roberts, or best Roberts?
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 14:54 |
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I thought this was the greens echo chamber. War is Bad, lest we forget? http://www.solidarity.net.au/imperialism/australia’s-war-against-japan-the-myth-of-the-&%238216;good-war&%238217;/ quote:
Or is this a "broken clock" thing, where if Australia sucks at human rights domestically at least that means our military might be hard as balls?
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 14:57 |
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Cleretic posted:I'd participate in a Prime Minister Hunt. ending in a hanged parliament?
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 15:20 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:e:Still think appeasement over the waters and then standing firm if they try anything more is the more sensible option that lets both sides save face. agreed, allowing them to get exactly what they want is the only sure path to stop them escalating further.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 15:24 |
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asio posted:I thought this was the greens echo chamber. War is Bad, lest we forget? I've actually never heard anyone claim that the war in the pacific was a war to protect/promote human rights, the war of self defence/against an existential threat thing seems far more common.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 15:27 |
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I honestly don't know enough about this stuff to bother continuing this argument, I just really couldn't give a single gently caress about China taking some water and would prefer not to die in a nuclear holocaust over it. It's as simple and as non-thought out as that.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 16:41 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:So do freedom of navigation exercises, don't recognise their claims and protect shipping. There's no need to call for war. Isn't this what is happening though? Nobody (ok there might be probably some completely crazy neocon types) is advocating "china stop your poo poo or we will nuke Shanghai", what they are saying is that hawkish pro-war sentiments revolve around the idea that doing the above will be interpreted by China as hostility (which it already is) but inevitably lead to a violent escalation. You can't do military exercises and protect shipping in the area unless you have a credible military force behind it.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 18:30 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I just really couldn't give a single gently caress about China taking some water and would prefer not to die in a nuclear holocaust over it. look at this pussy, doesn't want to die in a nuclear holocaust
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 22:33 |
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I long for the sweet embrace of radioactive death.
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# ? Aug 16, 2016 23:42 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I honestly don't know enough about this stuff to bother continuing this argument, I just really couldn't give a single gently caress about China taking some water and would prefer not to die in a nuclear holocaust over it. It's as simple and as non-thought out as that. I suppose an analogy would be if Indonesia decided to claim the Tasman sea. This whole thing is one of those no-win situations. Force freedom of movement and don't recognize China's claim, tension builds. Ignore the issue and let China do whatever, we are effectively telling all the other nations in the area to suck it.
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 00:39 |
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Solemn Sloth posted:I've actually never heard anyone claim that the war in the pacific was a war to protect/promote human rights, the war of self defence/against an existential threat thing seems far more common. The fuzzy wuzzies and pigmies we saved as we pushed back the yellow horde
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 00:40 |
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Surely that's only ever been mentioned as an incidental benefit?
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 00:53 |
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open24hours posted:Surely that's only ever been mentioned as an incidental benefit? Sounds pretty similar to the pro-war lines of thinking in the thread atm is all
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 01:06 |
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It's a shame the only options are on the extreme ends of the spectrum.
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 01:08 |
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I can't find an online article about it but reading the Advertiser at work this morning it's amazing how bare faced they can be. In regards to SA's power crisis of late, nowhere do they mention that soaring power prices have to do with deregulation and privatisation. Instead, they and Greg Hunt blame:
Now, I can understand base load power being affected by the amount of renewables being used but blaming high power prices on practically free energy is just completely backwards. Of course the 'Tiser quotes a conglomerate representing power companies to back up Hunt's claims
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 01:32 |
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OK resident hawks. What about the Crimea? Ukraine? Tibet? Why aren't we actively pursuing military options in each of those cases? If we really want the Chinese to sit up and take notice we should slam some import restrictions on them. Now that also would need to be done with some care because people who know recent history will recall that this was a significant factor in Japan taking preemptive action against the US. The Chinese and the Vietnamese have been at each other for centuries. Remember this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War. The current claims and small actions in the South China Sea are reprehensible but any response has to be carefully planned and of a proximate level. It would additionally be nice if it was carefully tuned to achieve results rather than escalate matters. Unless you are an accelerationist, no level of escalation (or the build up of forces and materials) is a worthwhile outcome. As ever it won't be Rand McNaly and Serco that do the suffering and dying. And before we get all high and mighty about China anyone remember the Timor Gap? http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/11/25/Australia-East-Timor-and-the-Timor-Gap.aspx The map doesn't look quite as extreme but we might like to think hard before playing the 'You are a regional bully' card too fervently. Speaking of local matters what of West Papua? and West Timor? Aren't these also matters of regional belligerence that need to be urgently addressed? Yeah get back to me on those. -/- Now before completely leaving the subject of military madness and diplomacy ask yourself why, when it is clearly destroying segments of both the US and the Australian economy, this mania for free trade continues? It is 100% untruthful (In the sense that it has been demonstrated to not work) ideaology. And yet today we have: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-17/turnbull-will-challenge-opposition-on-budget-cuts/7749868 quote:Malcolm Turnbull challenges Labor to back $6.5 billion budget cuts By political reporter Francis Keany Updated about 2 hours ago Act now or become one of the under class. You know like our indigenous cousins. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-16/indigenous-death-in-custody-the-aboriginal-legal-service-says/7748554 quote:NSW records first Indigenous death in police cell since 2000, Aboriginal Legal Service says By state political reporter Sarah Gerathy Updated yesterday at 5:13pm So we know the police involved disobeyed their own procedures. What else did they do to provoke this woman's death? I really hope the coroner takes this one up with vigilance because I smell pig flavoured fishy.
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 01:57 |
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Crimea, Ukraine & Tibet all have nothing to do with our Regional security. I'm not pro-war by any means, but it's facetious to suggest that China's shenanigans in South Asia are in any way equivalent from an Australian perspective to those aforementioned conflicts.
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:00 |
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It is becoming increasingly difficult to see a future that doesn't involve armed conflict in the South China Sea. When the Chinese government is willing to state publicly that its citizens should prepare for war while simultaneously ignoring the UNCLOS tribunal on the legality of its navy violating territorial waters, we're reaching the end of the diplomatic rope - and it is absolutely China's fault.
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:15 |
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shut the gently caress up
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:20 |
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Recoome posted:shut the gently caress up Can't argue with that
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:29 |
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i'm not super keen on the idea of war with china. nor am i real keen on the idea of just letting china take whatever territory it wants. diplomatic options seem to be running out fast or being ignored by the potential belligerents. it's not a simple situation and trying to guess at potential outcomes is probably unhelpful. china really are coming across as the aggressor though. otoh duterte is a loving madman
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:37 |
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thatbastardken posted:i'm not super keen on the idea of war with china. Yeah the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:39 |
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While it annoys me to say so, we have to rely on America to be the limiting factor. It's really Washington that gets to decide how far this escalates. Let's hope they don't elect Trump!
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:39 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 01:41 |
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Jumpingmanjim posted:Yeah the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. i wouldn't go that far there probably is no truth
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# ? Aug 17, 2016 02:42 |