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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Almost every QM game I've had lately has had an attack symettra, and the portals are usually placed to have people run off cliffs. I know this post is old but holy poo poo thats the most hilarious thing.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:39
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Tiler Kiwi posted:
well yeah fighting games are awesome "unintuitive" isn't necessarily a good thing, but it's not strictly a demerit either. another way to put it is that there's nothing wrong with a game requiring "knowledge" as one of the skills it tests, especially in the age of wikis. this is true of aspects of game design which have nothing to do with unintended behavior, too, like build orders or how to stack damage multipliers in Diablo 3 to handle higher Torment levels (which is SUPER unintuitive but also really cool in an "The Incredible Machine" kind of way) depth is the highest good a competitive game can aspire to, because otherwise why make it competitive. the important followup to that principle is that complexity, while frequently inseparable from depth, is not the same, and the ideal "solution" to designing a game is maximum depth with minimum cost in complexity (but depth comes first, because minimum complexity with maximum available depth means we should have stopped making games after inventing Go) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 06:40
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Internet Kraken posted:It'd be cool if Symmetra turrets were only damaged by direct hits. Would probably help with the times where explosive projectile spam just blows up your turrets through walls somehow. I feel like it might just be best to give her other sorts of traps she can place. -Healing turrets with like 30 hp and cool downs -maybe spike traps or something Honestly just anything just allowing only 6 of any given thing and maybe making some things count as more than one. It feels like attack snipers are more viable than on attack symmetra.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:42
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Tiler Kiwi posted:animation canceling is a byproduct of bad state code What? Also, action games, like devil may cry and bayonetta etc also have some intentional and non intentional animation cancels. I don't get this but I guess I'm not participating in this discussion.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:44
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SectumSempra posted:What? it's often the consequence of not keeping track of what was happening before for example, if you can swap between two shotguns to bypass their reload state, and you don't like what that does to your game, you should solve it by making shotguns "remember" that they were halfway through reloading and pick up from where they left off
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Aug 18, 2016 06:45
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that's a somewhat awkward example though because "reloading" as a concept means "deliberately taking control away from the player as a trade-off" to begin with
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Aug 18, 2016 06:46
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So you guys mean unintentional ones, not literally when moves are given cancel windows intentionally?
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Aug 18, 2016 06:46
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SectumSempra posted:So you guys mean unintentional ones, not literally when moves are given cancel windows intentionally? Well, my point is that the distinction is meaningless, but yes.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:47
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Verranicus posted:None of them are anything special so you're not missing out. this is an incredibly hosed up thing to say about my good friend american mccree
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Aug 18, 2016 06:49
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SectumSempra posted:It feels like attack snipers are more viable than on attack symmetra. Attack snipers are good when played well. Attack Symmetra is all about rounding corners with a full charged death ball and hitting someone with it the moment you start beaming them. She has to be in the thick of the fight tearing into people. Playing basically anyone else would still be better, though. Especially the snipers.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:49
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Well no one plays it right now because of dumb changes that may be being reverted, but dcuo and it's jump cancelling would have been a good example. They started of unintentional, then were embraced by developers then changed to sort of be more accessible and balanced. Then they got rid of all of them when a new team bought them. but once again, i just want a sick rear end symmetra who can do more than make teleprompters and wear pretty clothes, and kick all kinds of rear end by surprise on the Lighthouse in Illios.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:well yeah fighting games are awesome bushido blade was great and thats where my fondness for the fighting genre strictly ends I suppose its mostly just the "unintuitve" thing that we disagree on, since I think it is rather unforgivable; I'm suppose I am pretty lazybones about things and while discovering new ways to use what you've got in a game is great and cool, I sort of get irritated when I come across "features" like "oh yeah if you turn clockwise slowly while spamming crouch your passive procs 50% more often" or "the UI is wrong about how multipliers stack". And while it can be taken way too far in the other direction (like tbh I don't really dig Overwatch's design paradigm of baking all their character abilities into cooldown based things since that limits the utilization of it; I miss seeing TF2"s ~toxic~ nonsense where one godly player could slay an entire team with none of that fancy smancy press-x-for-awesome stuff), I've been spoiled pretty rotten in excepting games to convey its gameplay to me without me having to wrestle with it to figure out how to ~really~ play it. The triple jump stuff for Genji is something that really should be just taken and made into a legit character feature since yeah it's pretty rad, but the animation cancel thing is just, ehhhhh.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:52
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"The UI is wrong about how multipliers stack" is awful. Games shouldn't lie to you unless they're specifically about deceit. I admit that part of my fondness for animation canceling isn't inherent to the concept itself, and relates more to the way it frequently tends to reverse the overall trend towards games with less mobility, less player control, and less lethality.
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Aug 18, 2016 07:01
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GunZ was a terrible game for 14 year olds with ADD and "K-style" was cancer.
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Aug 18, 2016 07:02
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Verranicus posted:GunZ was a terrible game for 14 year olds with ADD and "K-style" was cancer. you are nothing if not predictable
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Aug 18, 2016 07:02
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Manatee Cannon posted:this is an incredibly hosed up thing to say about my good friend american mccree Blonde Zarya 
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Aug 18, 2016 07:05
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Lack of comp mode in live servers really emphasized how much quickplay sucks rear end. I think I will just play comp on ptr till season 2.
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Aug 18, 2016 07:06
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"The UI is wrong about how multipliers stack" is awful. Games shouldn't lie to you unless they're specifically about deceit.  tbh, you've kind of won me over on that point.
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Aug 18, 2016 07:06
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followup overwatch hot take - the lore is poo poo and makes no sense in the context of the gameplay
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Aug 18, 2016 07:09
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Tiler Kiwi posted:
i should tone it down and be less of an rear end in a top hat more often, probably the addendum to this is there's nothing wrong with slow, forgiving games with extremely level playing fields existing, it's more my bitterness that design principles like those in Quake 3 and Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and Brood War and so on barely even exist in mainstream games any more, either having gone extinct or only preserved in indie titles with a playerbase of six people
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Aug 18, 2016 07:09
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Just used Zarya's ult to pull the other team off the payload so we could push it the last foot. Feels pretty good.
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Aug 18, 2016 07:09
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SectumSempra posted:I feel like it might just be best to give her other sorts of traps she can place. Let symmetra put shields on her turrets like she does players. They regenerate so it can mitigate random splash hits?
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Aug 18, 2016 07:13
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Bolow posted:Blonde Zarya that is definitely her best legendary for sure
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Aug 18, 2016 07:36
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got tracer and mcree and torb's summer skins and i'd trade em all for a White Russian
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Aug 18, 2016 07:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:i should tone it down and be less of an rear end in a top hat more often, probably Not to say that mainstream games are always correct or that everything should cater to the majority, because neither of those is true, but those design principles kind of died because they produce games that most people can't really play, or get frustrated and put down before they get to whatever level of mastery it takes to make them actually fun to play. chumbler fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 07:57
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chumbler posted:Not to say that mainstream games are always correct, because they sure as hell aren't, but those design principles kind of died because they produce games that most people can't really play, or get frustrated and put down before they get to whatever level of mastery it takes to make them actually fun to play. I think they died because they sort of pirouetted off into a bit of an overcomplex direction to cater to an established market; games got to the point where you there was no way in hell you could sit down your parent of choice and have them understand what the blue hell was going on, much less get them to have fun. The time investment factor was also a problem; a lot of people just wanted those old style arcade games you could start, play for half an hour, and stop without having to sit and recollect what exactly you were doing the last time you were playing. Difficulty alone wasn't the problem (people went nuts over pinballs and arcades and those were hard as balls), nor was having too high a skill ceiling. But you're right that there's a point where games start shutting out people rather than serving as good learning devices for newer players. e: like I think anyone could play Starcraft Brood War and enjoy it without wrangling with the ladder, or play Street Fighter 2 without knowing about the cool strats, but later games ramped up on complexity to ensure they had something to offer to an established market that hadn't been done before, and the trade off is, well, the complexity. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 08:10
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I took a week's break and am horseshit at this game again, so... rip this game for me I guess.
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Aug 18, 2016 09:28
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Tiler Kiwi posted:followup overwatch hot take - the lore is poo poo and makes no sense in the context of the gameplay Part of me wonders is if the lore and characters were actually well written, would people on the internet still be absolutely crazy about drawing all these characters doing stupid poo poo? Its like they gave barely enough for people to latch onto these characters which somehow makes people like them more since they can fill in the blanks themselves. All anyone cares about is the fan content. All those shorts and comics Blizzard releases seem to basically be ignored because they suck. Or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places and people do eat that poo poo up when its released.
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Aug 18, 2016 09:41
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Internet Kraken posted:Part of me wonders is if the lore and characters were actually well written, would people on the internet still be absolutely crazy about drawing all these characters doing stupid poo poo? Its like they gave barely enough for people to latch onto these characters which somehow makes people like them more since they can fill in the blanks themselves. All anyone cares about is the fan content. All those shorts and comics Blizzard releases seem to basically be ignored because they suck. I watched them once, for the story tidbit, except for Dragons which I watched multiple times because it involves Hanzo getting rekt. I'm a simple man.
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Aug 18, 2016 09:48
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Antares posted:Actually just make his sword hitbox smaller than 400 sqft and I'd be happy So many times I thought that I could trap Genji, so many times he swiped in my direction destroying the trap, Junkrat and a tiny piece of my soul. Verranicus posted:Also I epected to see way more golden guns floating around at this point but they're still pretty rare it seems, are people really that bad? Maybe people just got frustrated by all the initial quirks and/or sudden death and just gave up for now?
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Aug 18, 2016 11:02
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Tiler Kiwi posted:followup overwatch hot take - the lore is poo poo and makes no sense in the context of the gameplay Anyone who cares about lore and let's it affect their enjoyment in an online shoot man game needs to go play another game
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Aug 18, 2016 11:17
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Verranicus posted:Also I epected to see way more golden guns floating around at this point but they're still pretty rare it seems, are people really that bad? Are you playing the PTR? Because it doesn't properly award points there.
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Aug 18, 2016 11:28
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Verranicus posted:Also I epected to see way more golden guns floating around at this point but they're still pretty rare it seems, are people really that bad? 60+ is top 6% of the players. They need to win 100 matches -> around 200 matches played. Anyone lower needs around 360 games (for 55+) played or more and that's just one golden weapon on a single character. They'll be very common after second season, when majority of player have grinded their way through 400-500 matches.
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Aug 18, 2016 11:57
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I don't know what golden weapon to get, now that I got American Mccree and his gun is already colored really cool. Roadhog? Reinhardt? I'm not sure who else it would be noticeable on.
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Aug 18, 2016 13:10
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UP AND ADAM posted:I don't know what golden weapon to get, now that I got American Mccree and his gun is already colored really cool. Roadhog? Reinhardt? I'm not sure who else it would be noticeable on. Zarya
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Aug 18, 2016 13:14
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My best character is Junkrat, and I think a homeless suicidal Australian maniac with 2.5 limbs stumbling around with a golden grenade launcher is loving hysterical. Problem is, my partner and I play on the same account, and I know she'll push for Lucio or Zarya getting the shiny weaponry.
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Aug 18, 2016 13:30
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Get gold Symmetra gun because no one loving has one
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Aug 18, 2016 14:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:it's possible that the better solution would be to lower base damage and maintain the glitch than to remove the glitch, if the glitch requires skill to execute and makes (or in separable from something that makes) the character feel better to play I wouldn't really say it required skill to execute, at least in the FPS sense. There's zero aim required and basically no positioning - it's just a totally free melee attack if you press another button right afterward. That's not exactly hard, it just means you have to practice it a bit to build up muscle memory (or just use a macro). It's not like ultimates would be meaningfully more skillful if you had to press two buttons to use them.
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Aug 18, 2016 14:15
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UP AND ADAM posted:I don't know what golden weapon to get, now that I got American Mccree and his gun is already colored really cool. Roadhog? Reinhardt? I'm not sure who else it would be noticeable on. Yes Please. Otherwise, it stands out on Zarya/Reinhardt/D.Va/Bastion/Pharah. Arguably, Reinhardt is the flashiest because you're swinging gold into people's faces and he still holds his axe out if he's using his shield ability.
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Aug 18, 2016 14:24
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chumbler posted:Not to say that mainstream games are always correct or that everything should cater to the majority, because neither of those is true, but those design principles kind of died because they produce games that most people can't really play, or get frustrated and put down before they get to whatever level of mastery it takes to make them actually fun to play. Yes and no. All of those games can be played at a low level and still hold up fine as such. A few of them (Street Fighter: Third Strike for instance) are kind of flawed in a way that makes them more fun to play at a low level than they are if you actually devote time to mastering them, or have weird skill plateaus where intermediate play is garbage but the top and bottom ends are great for different reasons. Their problems are ultimately much more meta-based -- they predate effective matchmaking, they predate most well-established documentation and teaching materials, and so on. Now we have all those things but we're still making games that shy away from rewarding and showcasing mastery as much as they could even though there are all these methods of insulating people from the "lose a thousand times and you'll start to get it" effect. Tiler Kiwi posted:I think they died because they sort of pirouetted off into a bit of an overcomplex direction to cater to an established market; games got to the point where you there was no way in hell you could sit down your parent of choice and have them understand what the blue hell was going on, much less get them to have fun. The time investment factor was also a problem; a lot of people just wanted those old style arcade games you could start, play for half an hour, and stop without having to sit and recollect what exactly you were doing the last time you were playing. Difficulty alone wasn't the problem (people went nuts over pinballs and arcades and those were hard as balls), nor was having too high a skill ceiling. But you're right that there's a point where games start shutting out people rather than serving as good learning devices for newer players. Brood War is already insanely complex, though. Street Fighter 2 somewhat less so in terms of bare mechanics, but fighting games are especially prone to complex / abstract concepts arising from relatively "simple" rules so it's a bit of a wash. Maximally deep games are always going to be intimidating and require a lot of learning, and treating that like a design flaw is a mistake and a failure of culture among both players and developers. If you get into, like, later airdash / anime fighters there's a point where you can go "okay yeah this has more Engrish-named subsystems than it actually needs" but that's such a minor sin compared to how perfect movement feels in Guilty Gear and how many of those subsystems serve valuable purposes in terms of rewarding mastery, pushing the game towards offense to prevent stand-offs, and so on.
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Aug 18, 2016 14:27
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