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Here's a concrete example of why pinpoint damage is the root of all this, using the MAD 3R as an example. The MAD 3R was one of my favorite mechs in tabletop, but one of the things that always worried me about it was how relatively thin the leg armor was. I want to say it was something like 16 points per leg. I do remember that a single AC20 hit to a leg could really wreck your poo poo if you had a bad crit roll. This was a real problem since legs were just as likely to get hit as your arms or side torsos by any given strike. In MWO on the other hand I am happily tooling around right now in a MAD 3R with 15 points of armor on the legs and not really having any problems. Why? Pin point weapons that everyone is firing at the toros. Once in a while I'l lose a leg, but that's usually at a point in the match where my shield side is gone and my CT is bright red anyways. They chose to stay as faithful to the TT mechanics as possible but with one HUGE change to keep it similar to the other Mechwarrior games. For what it's worth, those had the same problems with pinpoint damage causing poo poo to go down fast and making leg armor something you could easily skimp on. That's the core of their gameplay problem. PGI's got tons of other lovely decisions making things worse, but the fact that a mech boating 6 MLs can easily put all 30 points of damage on the exact same pixel is the original sin. To give you an idea, the odds on TT of those six ML all hitting the same location would be about .012% edit: and that's assuming that they all hit which is a whole added layer of probability to wade through. Your average Nova was a scary thing for a 50 tonner, but it wasn't going to just walk up to a heavy and obliterate the CT in one turn. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 23:31
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Cyrano4747 posted:Frankly it sounds like you just hate single death multiplayer games MWO has a hosed metagame and terrible community as a consequence of being single-death combined with several other non-negotiable design decisions. PGI - and a number of people who have been posting in this thread for years - are of the opinion that problems which are not caused by TTK can be fixed by loving with TTK, and I was addressing that misconception. Nobody disputes that a COF would reduce TTK. In particular, it would push people strongly into brawling, albeit brawling with the handful of weapons that are accurate or so overwhelmingly effective despite their inaccuracy that it would still be worth using them. It just wouldn't unfuck many of the ways MWO is hosed. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 23:41
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A.o.D. posted:oh man, so not regretting not playing this game since March. Welp, at least this hamfisted attempt replaces ye old ghost heat. Without penalty to movement and accuracy heat will just be an annoyance. They should implement CoF that is inversely proportional to the gyro weight and directly proportional to movement speed (gyro weight because you shouldn't bone lights for going fast). DiHK fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 23:52
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I cannot believe I'm reading some of the community members on reddit try to justify the Atlas thing by going "Oh its a lot of high alpha damage so the ghost heat is deserved" Because the lack of range and travel time doesn't already make brawling/Atlases hard to bring to bear. Goddammit I'm disappointed at this change.
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Aug 19, 2016 00:11
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Cease to Hope posted:MWO has a hosed metagame and terrible community as a consequence of being single-death combined with several other non-negotiable design decisions. PGI - and a number of people who have been posting in this thread for years - are of the opinion that problems which are not caused by TTK can be fixed by loving with TTK, and I was addressing that misconception. Messed up metagames and terrible communities are not endemic to MWO. Also while you're correct in that PGI's major dilemma is because of opposing design ideas, you're wrong that TTK can't solve it because that is where those ideas clash. You can further extrapolate it out to average Time per Game, but time is the core issue PGI is dealing with.
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Aug 19, 2016 00:20
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So everybody's armchairing about cone of fire now for some reason? Well, my two cents: Random chance in all its forms has no place in a PvP setting. It should be eliminated whenever possible, and smoothed out or minimised when not. If the problem is "it's too easy to hit the CT with all of your shots", which I don't necessarily buy but I do find plausible, then aiming should be made genuinely harder. Raise the skill ceiling, do not force random misses. This can be done in several ways. Off the top of my head: require the player to manually control weapon convergence; reduce crosshair speed (both arms and torso); further nerf weapon accuracy (longer laser durations, slower projectiles); introduce more skill-based firing mechanic to more weapons, like the Gauss charge-up; flat-out forbid weapon grouping and alpha strike, allow only chainfire. All of these ideas are of course way more complex than a CoF, but  ain't doin' that one either so if we're just fantasising, we might as well fantasise about the best possible system.
NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 00:21
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For the record I'm not touting a flat random chance to hit where the recticle is but instead adding recycle shake in sync with foot steps.
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Aug 19, 2016 00:27
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NihilCredo posted:So everybody's armchairing about cone of fire now for some reason? I think you're the big winner in this discussion. As the game has gone by, the things that introduced accuracy penalties in all but the best players have been reduced or removed. Laser durations are all significantly shorter than they were in beta. Every single projectile weapon is faster, PPCs, ACs, especially gauss. AC20 is about the only one at the same speed. Mechs have been consistently up-engined and almost all receive significant turn rate, acceleration, and twist bonuses in some form. Why? Because people like being able to aim and shoot easily, and buffing weapons and mechs to make them easier to use is an easy way to buff things without seeming to do anything drastic, like increasing damage would be perceived as. But that takes away from the core idea of what a mech game should be. Ask yourself: what makes a mech FPS different from a normal manshoot FPS, mechanically? The answer is that there is a layer of interference between the player and the responsiveness. Mechs should turn slowly, they should take a second to line up their crosshairs if you want precise shots, the lasers should burn long enough that you're not guaranteed to get it all right on the CT and the projectiles should be slow enough that you don't have 90%+ accuracy like everyone should right now. These things would, in turn, all increase TTK without adding randomness, like Nihil says. You want proof? Remember how fondly everyone remembers CB? It was because there were no mechs with huge engine caps, no pilot skills, the lasers burned longer, and projectiles were slower. It was everything in this post, and we loved it. The process of mechs getting more agile and weapons becoming more responsive has been very gradual, but that's how power creep works. If you go back and watch CB recorded footage it looks like everyone is retarded, drunk, or both compared to today. That's because it was so much harder to aim a mech that swings around like a few dozen tons of metal than a ballerina. Nevertheless, there was nothing in the way of the very best players managing to aim properly and landing their shots- but it was hard, instead of easy.
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Aug 19, 2016 00:52
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My heart agress with NihilCredo because I, too, grew up playing Quake... but my head can't disagree more because all the good modern games for the past decade have had heavy RNG game mechanics and been stupidly successful despite them. Also someone pls invite izov to girl so I can take a 60mm C-bill poo poo into the unit coffers.
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Aug 19, 2016 01:29
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Also, you couldn't lock torso and arm weapons together, which added another bit of spread that could be overcome by player skill.
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Aug 19, 2016 01:38
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aniviron posted:I think you're the big winner in this discussion. As the game has gone by, the things that introduced accuracy penalties in all but the best players have been reduced or removed. Laser durations are all significantly shorter than they were in beta. Every single projectile weapon is faster, PPCs, ACs, especially gauss. AC20 is about the only one at the same speed. Mechs have been consistently up-engined and almost all receive significant turn rate, acceleration, and twist bonuses in some form. It also had 8v8, which is a fairly large change, probably bigger even than clan tech. I genuinely like the 1-life system because you can have a arm, leg, or side blow off, and keep fighting. If the queue cycled faster, or the maps were less idiotically huge, or if you reliably had spawns and objectives that promoted good, somewhat even engagements, you'd get more of the fights that make the game fun. They are universally increasing all weapon cooldown, which cuts DPS a fair bit, in addition to penalizing alpha. We'll see where it lands
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Aug 19, 2016 01:46
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aniviron posted:These things would, in turn, all increase TTK without adding randomness, like Nihil says. You want proof? Remember how fondly everyone remembers CB? It was because there were no mechs with huge engine caps, no pilot skills, the lasers burned longer, and projectiles were slower. There was also a significant random factor in whether your shots even registered or not, in those pre-HSR days. The RNG was left to terrible netcode and hit detection rather than rand(), but it was randomness.
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Aug 19, 2016 02:34
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http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=250&l=1ae04bf4c089e16b656aa59338ff58aff9208d81 Been running this Enforcer 5P build tonight. It's a loving crit monster.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:05
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Azuth0667 posted:I find it fun to shoot robutts and I think you will too when you find the mech you like How do I Mumble i'm an idiot and can't read. I don't even know whether they changed the server since I last used it 2 years ago.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:12
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Colon Semicolon posted:How do I Mumble i'm an idiot and can't read. I don't even know whether they changed the server since I last used it 2 years ago. mumble.goonrathi.com pw: mellon
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Aug 19, 2016 04:14
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Skoll posted:I for one, do not give two shits about the new system they're going to force on the game. KaoliniteMilkshake posted:It also had 8v8, which is a fairly large change, probably bigger even than clan tech. When the game went from 8v8 to 12v12 all of a sudden people could not as effectively move and flank etc, maneuver warfare just died almost entirely compared to how it was previously. In the past a really good group of 3-4 people could split off and form a kind of pincer movement and easily pick off some stragglers, and then move in and clean up the rest. But with the advent of 12v12 if you run into peripheral portions of a deathblob your small group is going to just get completely murdered, and even when you do manage to get a kill or two you certainly can't follow it up into the rest of the team to deal more damage, there are just too many other mechs to deal with. The best you can do in 12v12 is usually to just maintain your own deathblob better than the opponent manages. Washout fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 04:23
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Don't play it then? That way no one has to hear you blame everything but yourself when you wipe.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:30
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Skoll posted:Don't play it then? That way no one has to hear you blame everything but yourself when you wipe. Haha I haven't played in like a year you still love me. Has anyone actually logged into the test server to play the new game? Washout fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 04:38
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So I realized something about Ghost Heat 2: they just reinvented the basic heat system that Battletech used 30 years ago, but without any of the game design that makes Battletech fun. I would assume that BT, while it was in development, started with something along the lines of "we'll make every gun produce a single point of heat per damage dealt and work from there." Then, they found that things like SRMs being short range, LRMs having spread, ballistics weighing a lot, etc., should all impact that and raised or lowered heat accordingly. MWO has done the same thing BT did, except that weapons which are already disadvantaged for one reason or another do not get much of a break. In particular most brawling builds rely heavily on being able to dump damage like crazy into people at close range in exchange for the fact that they get hosed outside of knife fights. Now they're hosed coming and going.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:57
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Just curious....When did this piece of poo poo start requiring 8+ gigs of ram to run properly? Even with forcing the 32bit client. (or attempting to anyway) Granted, I realize that this is a sign that my ancient potatobox needs to be upgraded....But if I was running it a bit over 6 months ago with problems only occasionally, wonder why it's deciding to be unruly all of a sudden... Oh wait.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:57
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Washout posted:Deathwing is made by cyanide, it's going to be total garbage, battletech is going to be good at least. Battlefront 1 is up in the air until it's actually released I suppose. Deathwing is actually by the E.Y.E. Cybermancy people, they're only getting "assistance" from Cyanide according to wikipedia.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:01
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fun fact: brawlgoons seems to win like 70-80% of the time. Not every time, sometimes we gently caress up, but we're doing OK.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:10
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lovely Wizard posted:Deathwing is actually by the E.Y.E. Cybermancy people, they're only getting "assistance" from Cyanide according to wikipedia. Just like PGI assisted with the multiplayer for Duke Nukem Forever?
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Aug 19, 2016 05:13
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lovely Wizard posted:Deathwing is actually by the E.Y.E. Cybermancy people, they're only getting "assistance" from Cyanide according to wikipedia. They could pretty much just do a reskin of E.Y.E. and call it a day.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:15
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KaoliniteMilkshake posted:fun fact: brawlgoons seems to win like 70-80% of the time. Not every time, sometimes we gently caress up, but we're doing OK. What about once Energy Drain comes in? My Atlases... 
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Aug 19, 2016 05:17
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Artificer posted:What about once Energy Drain comes in? My Atlases... Energy Drain looks like it's going to be "play Hunchbacks if you want to brawl, get 2PPC 1GAUSS sniper'd to death trying." Russ seems to really like sniping.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:29
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PoptartsNinja posted:Energy Drain looks like it's going to be "play Hunchbacks if you want to brawl, get 2PPC 1GAUSS sniper'd to death trying." His toddler likes sniping* I hear she's really good at 360 noscoping in CoD.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:35
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Skoll posted:His toddler likes sniping* The sad thing is, you're probably right. Russ, just give the kid developer god mode. At this point, that'd probably poo poo up the queues less.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:36
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PoptartsNinja posted:Energy Drain looks like it's going to be "play Hunchbacks if you want to brawl, get 2PPC 1GAUSS sniper'd to death trying." So we're going back to that meta now huh? Time to work on my Timber Wolves in preparation. Or just stop playing and go back to Stardew Valley. That sounds kind of nice too.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:43
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PPCs are crazy on the PTS right now. Well, at least IS PPC/ER PPCs. You can fire three without ghost heat 2, which is surprisingly effective, and firing a fourth is actually fairly gentle, I can manage it twice in an AWS-8Q without overheating. The clans have the useless splash damage that puts them significantly higher on the heat cap, so three PPCs for clans more than four for IS, so they're stuck firing 2+2 like the bad ol' days.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:45
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aniviron posted:PPCs are crazy on the PTS right now. Well, at least IS PPC/ER PPCs. You can fire three without ghost heat 2, which is surprisingly effective, and firing a fourth is actually fairly gentle, I can manage it twice in an AWS-8Q without overheating. The clans have the useless splash damage that puts them significantly higher on the heat cap, so three PPCs for clans more than four for IS, so they're stuck firing 2+2 like the bad ol' days. That's kind of sexy actually, K2 is back? Actually no, 2 ER PPCs even now will get you fairly crippling amounts of heat so that's kind of useless.
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Aug 19, 2016 06:04
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Artificer posted:That's kind of sexy actually, K2 is back? Actually no, 2 ER PPCs even now will get you fairly crippling amounts of heat so that's kind of useless. Everything on the PTS has more dissipation right now too, so it's not as bad. I might stick with regular PPCs on the K2, but it should be workable.
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Aug 19, 2016 06:20
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If PPCs become actually worth using outside of highly situational quirk/chassis setups that will certainly be interesting
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Aug 19, 2016 06:32
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PTS Quick Brawler test: Canyon network Using the Highlander IIC with Gauss + 4x SRM6 with 17 DHS, (no skills). Firing All weapons is heat neutral (even with the the heat spike from Energy drain). Thanks to the new cooldown. Will build an Atlas next. Atlas: 4x SRM6+A, AC/20 15 DHS, 360 Std = Whoa Hot, not firing AC/20 and SRMs at once helps though. With a Guass it's "colder" thanks to the longer cooldown on the Gauss, if you just want to Alpha. Though DPS goes down. Tank Boy Ken fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 06:35
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So wait, "Gauss charge removed" means its click to damage now? Its a long range AC15 now? Is this real?
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Aug 19, 2016 06:56
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Yolomon Wayne posted:So wait, "Gauss charge removed" means its click to damage now? Yes. Also the Boomjäger is now free to fire 2x AC/20 at once, without suffering a crippling heat penalty. Still suffering a heat penalty (5). Not that bad.
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Aug 19, 2016 06:59
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Tank Boy Ken posted:PTS Quick Brawler test: Canyon network I suppose SRM4s won't solve the issue on the Atlas? drat. More facetime now. SRM4s will still do more than 30 damage in a single alpha. So yeah lol. Artificer fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 07:01
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Tank Boy Ken posted:Yes. Also the Boomjäger is now free to fire 2x AC/20 at once, without suffering a crippling heat penalty. Still suffering a heat penalty (5). Not that bad. Wait wait wait. In an attempt to reduce alpha strike damage they made you able to alpha 30 pinpoint click damage on 2km range?
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Aug 19, 2016 07:03
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Yolomon Wayne posted:Wait wait wait. holy poo poo the jaeger is going to be so good.
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Aug 19, 2016 07:04
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Yolomon Wayne posted:Wait wait wait. With a over 6 second cooldown. Yes. That's why bigger mechs can also pack some PPCs (or ER LLs) in case you get bored. 4x SRM4s = 34,4 dmg x 0.75 energy = 25,8 energy. Might be better to use a D-DC with 3x SRM 4 and 2x LB-X. Would save Artemis weight. 2x LB-X 10 + 3x SRM4 are 44,35 energy = 7,175 heat penalty. I think the cooldowns should sync up better than SRM6 + LB-X 10.
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Aug 19, 2016 07:09
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