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WickedHate posted:I'm not infuriated, just stating in my ideal casting Mary Jane could be any race as long as she kept the hair. No one gives a gently caress about Aunt May and any change to her character is probably for the best, though you could also interpret it as ageist sexism in making her young and beautiful. You still won't actually say why hair color is important beyond 'iconic.' And yes, this is a problem. Hair color as being the Most Important Element Of A Character is a thing that comes up uncommonly often and disproportionately targets actors and actresses of color. Merely stressing that it's 'iconic' isn't a good enough argument when countless other elements of characters are not iconic enough to be kept that are more critical and character-defining. Tony Stark isn't an alcoholic (or at least not a cripplingly uncontrolled one like in the comics), Hank Pym doesn't beat his wife, Star-Lord is effectively an entirely different character with little to no resemblance to the comic version. Instead it comes across as yet another excuse to point to a minority actor or actress and go "Sorry, you're not good enough to be this comic character without changing your looks." And even if you don't mean it that way you're continuing the trend from lovely people who do mean it that way for little reason other than you feel a fan twinge of discomfort at the idea of change. And not even relevant change, something entirely and wholeheartedly unimportant to the character. It's not even a "Harry Potter's eyes are green' level of important. (Despite the fact that Daniel Radcliffe went 8 films without green eyes.) If hair color is so unimportant to the character that you can change it and literally nothing about the character changes in any way, shape or form, maybe it is less 'iconic' and more just plain familiar, and the instinctive response shouldn't be 'that is different and therefore makes me unhappy' but 'oh, I guess it wasn't that important after all." Doctor Spaceman posted:Marisa Tomei is 51, which is a pretty normal age for the aunt of a teenager. Yeah, in this case it isn't Marisa Tomei who is abnormal but the canonical Aunt May who is abnormally old for whatever reason. I don't think the change is bad or inappropriate.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:39
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Typical Hollywood blackwashing. What's next, an Asian Hulk?
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Aug 19, 2016 04:47
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ImpAtom, what do you think my motivation is here? Put me in your view of my mindset, because I can't figure it out. I know it's possible to be racist on different levels without an aggressive "I hate black people" view, and that truly, no one is free of sin, but do you seriously think I'm objecting because of the actresses' race? I also feel like you have to be deliberately ignoring Mary Jane and her long red hair have been essentially as tied together with each other as Tony Stark and his armor.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:57
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ImpAtom posted:Aunt May being defined as Peter's uncommonly old looking aunt is far more an iconic element of the character than Mary-Jane's hairr. Her frequent health issues are an ongoing part of the character, especially early on in the comics. Her being the same age as Iron Man is in fact a significant departure for the character. If you're complaining about them changing 'iconic' elements of the character, the change to Aunt May from being Peter's old sickly aunt to being someone that Tony Stark thinks is hot is actually more of a change than hair color. You should be complaining about how much that ruins the iconic elements of the character because Peter stressing over his aunt's health is a fairly major part of early Spider-Man. Not since Ultimate Spider-Man came around and updated Aunt May would the older one be called iconic. They've even walked back how May appears in the regular Spider-Man books to where she isn't as young looking as Ultimate May, but isn't old and decrepit as she was in the early comics. I think most people associate MJ with red hair, just like they would associate Jean Grey with red hair. It's not a common feature, it stands out, and if a character has it, usually they'll work that into adaptions. Your whole Pepper argument is really dumb because yes, Pepper has red hair in the movies, even if it isn't a deep shade of red. Red hair is an easy indentifier, and in the case of MJ who was a party girl at first(redheads are thought of as more "wild", and this would have been an easy way for a comic to allude to MJ being sexually active without coming out and outright saying it), and then later the most important supporting character in Spider-Man books, it's something people would expect to carry over to adaptions. Race doesn't matter here as any race can have red hair, or red highlights. Sure, they can change it, but why? It seems like it would be an odd decision to not have MJ have red hair than to cast someone, and have them add red to their hair in some fashion. In the end, you're harping on people for their opinions and trying to tell them why their opinions are wrong, and that's not going to get you anywhere. MJ has always been depicted as a redhead, so if people find it weird that all of a sudden she wouldn't be, I don't see that as something to start getting upset about and casting accusations of racism. Especially when, as it's been pointed out, any person of any ethnicity can have red hair.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:08
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WickedHate posted:ImpAtom, what do you think my motivation is here? Put me in your view of my mindset, because I can't figure it out. I know it's possible to be racist on different levels without an aggressive "I hate black people" view, and that truly, no one is free of sin, but do you seriously think I'm objecting because of the actresses' race? I think you're doing the unfortunate comic fan thing where you see a change and instantly respond to it as bad. I don't think you're racist so much as it happens disproportionately in cases like this and as I said I don't know if that's because the racial change makes people notice it more or what, but I think even you have to acknowledge that there's always more response to changes like this than any other change, even on forums like SA where people aren't about to break into racism outside of specific subforums. I'm not ignoring that. "The character has been this way for a long time and thus should never change" isn't really a good argument, especially when we're talking about a character who, when created, would not have been allowed to be a black woman. Mary-Jane has been a redhead for a long time. Does it really matter to the character? I mean that as a genuine question. no "It's iconic" or "she's been that way for a long time!" Will she somehow stop being Mary-Jane if she isn't a redhead? There are plenty of other elements of the character which are either changed or come from the Ultimate universe version of the character based off what people have said. Like striaght-off: Mary-Jane in the Raimi movies and it seems like Mary-Jane here are not going to be the party girl who meets Peter with "Face it, tiger, you just hit the Jackpot," nor will she be contrasted with Gwen Stacy's more girl-next-door elements until Gwen's unfortunate death causes her to grow up and mature. That is despite the fact that is the Mary-Jane plotline besides her marriage to Peter Parker (which isn't even canon in the comics anymore!) If missing those elements doesn't make her Not Mary-Jane then why does a change in her hair color matter unless you're saying superficial details about her looks matter more to the core of the character than her personality and plot points? Codependent Poster posted:. Your whole Pepper argument is really dumb because yes, Pepper has red hair in the movies, even if it isn't a deep shade of red.  This is literally a shot of Pepper Potts. Codependent Poster posted:Not since Ultimate Spider-Man came around and updated Aunt May would the older one be called iconic. Ultimate Aunt May is not the cryptkeeper but she is not Marisa Tomei. 
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 05:09
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Did I seriously just read a multipage argument about Mary Jane's hair? Seriously? I don't say this very much, but y'all need to shut the gently caress up.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:18
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I don't care about the hair as long as she enacts this iconic pose 
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Aug 19, 2016 05:34
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You also need to shut the gently caress up. That picture is terrible. E: Unless that was the joke? I am very tired.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:35
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...Okay, I gotta say though, that cover of MJ does look uncannily like Zendaya.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:36
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Michelle Watson will be her name in the movie BUT she'll be Peter's dealer and so everyone calls her Mary Jane.
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Aug 19, 2016 05:43
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If Mary Jane sells weed to peter im gonna buy tickets for everyone i know
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Aug 19, 2016 05:46
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Retro Futurist posted:I don't care about the hair as long as she enacts this iconic pose Giant framed close up photo, drat that's some ego.
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Aug 19, 2016 06:00
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Retro Futurist posted:I don't care about the hair as long as she enacts this iconic pose I agree my spiderman movie needs boobs Naked Boobs
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Aug 19, 2016 06:03
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Light Gun Man posted:Giant framed close up photo, drat that's some ego. I have a poster of myself on my door.
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Aug 19, 2016 06:10
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Jesus Christ man, some people just said they envision the character with red hair based on 50+ years of media telling them she should, not that they're gonna boycott the movie Ghostbusters-style, calm down. I mean I'm sure there are people out there that are claiming they're boycotting the movie but you should go fight them on Twitter, you know, where they are. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 06:28
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I can't believe I'm even bothering to wade into a discussion I'm already loving exhausted of, but don't Peter and various others call MJ "Red" as a nickname? Or am I thinking of Jean Gray?
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Aug 19, 2016 07:09
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SlimGoodbody posted:I can't believe I'm even bothering to wade into a discussion I'm already loving exhausted of, but don't Peter and various others call MJ "Red" as a nickname? Or am I thinking of Jean Gray? You're thinking of Jean Grey though I am positive that at some point "Red" has been applied to Mary-Jane by someone if not just because it has has been for Pepper, Natasha and probably anyone else with red hair. Wolverine probably was involved at least once for each because that's the kind of thing he does.
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Aug 19, 2016 08:20
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I was gonna say, I'm almost certain it was Logan saying it
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Aug 19, 2016 08:30
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For content I will just say that its a good thing Natalie Portman is done with MCU, because she and her character sucked. Like so bad that I question whether Portman was ever a decent actress, even in Black Swan. My real post is that the previous two pages of this thread deserve to get this thread shut down for good. Holy gently caress...
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Aug 19, 2016 09:02
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Mover posted:Michelle Watson will be her name in the movie BUT she'll be Peter's dealer and so everyone calls her Mary Jane. Sure make the black girl the drug dealer that will fix everything.
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Aug 19, 2016 09:09
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ninja alamode posted:Sure make the black girl the drug dealer that will fix everything. Casting a black woman in a stereotypically black male role is a smashing blow to sexism surely.
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Aug 19, 2016 09:13
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Whizbang posted:Typical Hollywood blackwashing. What's next, an Asian Hulk? I've been reliably informed that Hulk represents anglo-saxon destructive rage against all things around it, impotent and uncontrolled. Thus he is the white mans id brought to life in huge and green CGI- or something.
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Aug 19, 2016 09:42
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Swillkitsch posted:I couldn't name a single character trait that Marvel has invested in Mary Jane worth giving a gently caress about over the years other than the fact that she's Peter's love interest. I mean, I guess if "fiery redhead" is a good enough character thesis for you to defend the concept of her hair color, then the real problem is the fact that there is nothing else about Mary Jane that is worth caring about, basically You are Joe Quesada and I claim my five pounds. OK, seriously. I'm kinda bummed out by this, mainly because I was hoping they'd keep the iconic 'face it Tiger' introduction as the end of the movie or as a post credits scene, whereas it seems she's actually going to be in the movie the whole way through. I'm sure if she is playing MJ she'll do a good job, but godammit they had the perfect chance to pull off one of the best character introductions in comics on the big screen (and Spectacular Spider-Man shows it can be done outside of the page), and they fumbled the ball. The casting is not my problem (although I would be lying if I said it's not going to be something that I will have to adjust to), but I was hoping that they'd actually surprise us with Mary Jane the way Stan Lee & John Romita did back in the 60s. Considering Zendaya is already appearing marketing materials makes that unlikely. Then again I can see how impossible it would be to keep that reveal under wraps.
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Aug 19, 2016 10:34
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Ill eat anything Homecoming brings to the table just keep the Osborns out of this franchise. I cannot handle another Goblin retread
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Aug 19, 2016 12:11
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I'm sure she'll be great but man I feel bad for her. Everything about the role will now be analyzed and scrutinized about five times as hard, and she's going to deal with a lot of harassment and abuse online.
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Aug 19, 2016 12:24
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Patsy Walker is an iconic Marvel redhead clad in garish yellow and blue not a blonde radio host named Trish and not only did the world keep spinning properly but Jessica Jones was loving great. It turns out that everything is negotiable if the finished product is quality.
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Aug 19, 2016 12:37
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Yvonmukluk posted:You are Joe Quesada and I claim my five pounds. The article that started this talked about how she's actually dressed down, in simple ill fitting clothes and stuff. So there's still the opportunity to do that. "Liz rejected me, she's going with Flash!" "Why don't we go together, best friend Peter who has never seen me that way before?" etc. etc. In any case, if that's who she's playing I don't think it's meant to be a reveal in the movie. Kind of hard to hide a character's name for a whole movie without it seeming clunkier than Robin Blake. They'll announce it at some point, they're still filming. rantmo posted:Patsy Walker is an iconic No.
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Aug 19, 2016 13:49
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I've not seen much of Zendaya's acting, but I have never really heard much of it. Maybe this will turn out to be some big iconic role for her. I'm curious as to how she'll be implemented into the movie. Considering the title I had kinda assumed that the movie would end with Aunt May finally forcing Peter to meet the nice girl Anna told her about. I guess that's out of the question now. In this new story, they should have Uncle Ben die from reading everything between "I hope she has red hair" and this.
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Aug 19, 2016 13:52
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They already announced that Portman was not in Thor 3, so I figured it was basically assured that she was done. Kat Dennings and Skarsgard are also out of Thor 3. Since Thor 3 is supposed to be chronologically before, during, and after Civil War, I bet that they aren't even on earth for more time than it takes to get Banner up there.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:05
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SonicRulez posted:I've not seen much of Zendaya's acting, but I have never really heard much of it.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:09
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SonicRulez posted:I've not seen much of Zendaya's acting, but I have never really heard much of it. Maybe this will turn out to be some big iconic role for her. I'm curious as to how she'll be implemented into the movie. Considering the title I had kinda assumed that the movie would end with Aunt May finally forcing Peter to meet the nice girl Anna told her about. I guess that's out of the question now. My nephew used to watch the show she was on so I'd catch a bit of it sometimes, but you can't judge anything from Disney channel because it has a house acting style where everyone over-acts everything.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:10
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Kat Dennings and Skarsgard are also out of Thor 3. This sucks but it makes sense since little to none of the movie will take place on Earth. I really liked both of their characters. Hopefully they'll come back for Infinity War or something like that when they need some extra Science people.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:15
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Kat Dennings and Skarsgard are also out of Thor 3.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:16
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I've already seen a picture of Zendaya on Twitter that is her with red hair and it looks fine. I don't know anything about her as an actress but it's not like MJ is a deep character.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:19
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The only thing I've ever heard about her is that she was supposed to be in a Lifetime movie biopic about Aaliyah and dropped out at the last minute.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:20
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It's going to be weird seeing an MJ without red hair but I can deal. Casting the shrimpy kid from GBH as Flash Thompson is way more objectionable in my opinion.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:26
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Doctor Spaceman posted:I hadn't heard of her before this, what's the buzz about her? I just know her from Disney as people have said before. I know she was a little kid on one of their shows. Since that I've really only seen her as herself. Like at award shows and things like that. I think it's probably good for her in the long run. I haven't heard anyone really talk about her as an actress, so there's a real opportunity here for her. And as a person I've only heard good things about her being a positive woman in Hollywood, so there's no worry of her pulling a Leto or anything.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:29
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There's basically no possible way she'll be worse than Kirsten Dunst. And I like Kirsten Dunst.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Kat Dennings and Skarsgard are also out of Thor 3.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:49
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greatn posted:There's basically no possible way she'll be worse than Kirsten Dunst. And I like Kirsten Dunst. it's a minority opinion these days but I think both Dunst and Maguire were perfect for their roles. They feel more like actual people than just about anyone in a comic book movie. Franco's a little rocky at the start but gets better as he goes.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:51
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