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I recently read Kaputt, the fictionalized memoir of OG Italian fascist and WW2 war correspondent for Corriere della Sera Curzio Malaparte, where he writes about (his experience on / in) the Eastern Front / Eastern Europe. He touts his own badassitude a lot - way too many scenes of him being a sardonic dick to high-ranking Nazis (like Hans Frank + wife) at lavish dinners etc. The thing is written in 1944, so keep that in mind, but it overall feels right, the observations and writing are p powerful, and one particularly horrifying chapter about a pogrom in Romania that I was able to compare to a scholarly account of the event was basically accurate as far as verifiable facts go. The Uztashe chapter is, uh, unpleasant too. Anyway, there's a chapter in there about the German soldiery's realization that maybe they are in over their head with this whole Russia thing that's really good. This tidbit sums up the thing's overall style pretty succinctly: quote:When Germans become afraid, when that mysterious German fear begins to creep into their bones, they always arouse a special horror and pity. Their appearance is miserable, their cruelty sad, their courage silent and hopeless. so yeah. Read at your own peril  but I liked it tremendously.
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Aug 19, 2016 11:30
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how do italians become afraid, in his opinion?
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Aug 19, 2016 11:39
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HEY GAL posted:how do italians become afraid, in his opinion? passionately
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Aug 19, 2016 11:48
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Hogge Wild posted:Gebirgsjägers in Finland at least used them. Maybe it was more of a thing for them, and rest of the troops used draught horses? Mountain guns also were designed to be carried on trails by pack animals or men by splitting them into parts, and mules are great for this because they're sure footed and can carry as much as a horse. Horses are still better if you have actual roads, I gather, and you really need roads for heavy artillery.
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Aug 19, 2016 12:11
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HEY GAL posted:how do italians become afraid, in his opinion? Can't remember anything interesting re: that.
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Aug 19, 2016 12:55
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Nenonen posted:Mountain guns also were designed to be carried on trails by pack animals or men by splitting them into parts, and mules are great for this because they're sure footed and can carry as much as a horse. Horses are still better if you have actual roads, I gather, and you really need roads for heavy artillery. I have been speculating lately that Mexican troops may have tequila mules, for the same reasons
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Aug 19, 2016 13:09
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Watching the guy manhandle a tank shell in that video... How dangerous is that activity? Do bad things happen if you drop the thing? On that topic, I remember watching an old film about some kids scavenging a MG from a downed German bomber during the Battle of Britain. There's this one scene where they hold a cartridge in a vice and hit the primer with a screwdriver and a hammer. In the film there's a ping and the bullet ricochets all over the place. I assume that's unrealistic?
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Aug 19, 2016 13:11
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Fangz posted:Watching the guy manhandle a tank shell in that video... How dangerous is that activity? Do bad things happen if you drop the thing? Tank ammunition isn't that unstable. I've read about complaints of ammo falling out of racks while driving on bumpy terrain, and it didn't mention anyone dying. Rather unrealistic. Without a barrel to focus the energy, the bullet will sort of flop out rather than fly in the intended direction, and the case is likely to burst without a chamber around it. It's the case fragments that would gently caress them up.
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Aug 19, 2016 13:17
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Fangz posted:On that topic, I remember watching an old film about some kids scavenging a MG from a downed German bomber during the Battle of Britain. There's this one scene where they hold a cartridge in a vice and hit the primer with a screwdriver and a hammer. In the film there's a ping and the bullet ricochets all over the place. I assume that's unrealistic? I dunno about the balistics involved, but my father witnessed a dude commit suicide-by-idiocy through fiddling with an AA gun round.
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Aug 19, 2016 13:25
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my dad posted:I dunno about the balistics involved, but my father witnessed a dude commit suicide-by-idiocy through fiddling with an AA gun round. There's also an old Darwin Awards Honorable Mention story of a guy who mangled a hand or two when trying to turn a .50 BMG round into a necklace by grabbing an awl and hammer and trying to pound a hole straight through a live round.
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Aug 19, 2016 13:28
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Ensign Expendable posted:Tank ammunition isn't that unstable. I've read about complaints of ammo falling out of racks while driving on bumpy terrain, and it didn't mention anyone dying. It will make a loud noise, though. I would think the danger for ammo falling out of racks is it causing injury to crew due to its weight.
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Aug 19, 2016 13:39
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aphid_licker posted:Can't remember anything interesting re: that. Italians don't get afraid; they get drunk.
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Aug 19, 2016 13:50
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Fangz posted:Watching the guy manhandle a tank shell in that video... How dangerous is that activity? Do bad things happen if you drop the thing? It's The Machine Gunners, which is a great book. It has a sequel which is basically "kid learns about socialism"
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Aug 19, 2016 14:10
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david_a posted:Hmm. A mule is stronger than a horse of the same size, so I guess they didn't have any mammoth jack stock for breeding. They're not mentioned explicitly, but the characteristics of the German stock are only related to the Soviet stock to emphasise one of the many logistical problems the Germans faced and the limits of the German ability to adapt by scrounging. Although the smaller Soviet horses were better on rough ground.
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Aug 19, 2016 14:22
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HEY GAL posted:i live here half the time and i've never seen a mule. what if the germans just don't use them in general? And mules don't come in just one size, it's obviously dependent on the horse and donkey parents. If you breed a giant draft horse with a bigger variety of donkey you'll get something a lot beefier than the stereotypical mule. Did the Nazis ship a bunch of horses to North Africa as well or was that theatre more mechanized?
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Aug 19, 2016 14:23
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Ensign Expendable posted:Tank ammunition isn't that unstable. I've read about complaints of ammo falling out of racks while driving on bumpy terrain, and it didn't mention anyone dying. Honestly fragments of the brass aren't really going to be a problem. I've tossed surplus WW2 / 1950s era rifle rounds with bad primers into fires tons of times and all they do is pop, fart out the bullet maybe six inches, and worst case the neck splits. You would need a REALLY heavy crimp on the bullet to hold it in long enough to develop enough pressure to rupture the brass. The bad OOB KB's where the brass fragments are usually caused by a cartridge extracting too far under pressure after firing. chitoryu12 posted:There's also an old Darwin Awards Honorable Mention story of a guy who mangled a hand or two when trying to turn a .50 BMG round into a necklace by grabbing an awl and hammer and trying to pound a hole straight through a live round. I'm pretty skeptical of this. Gunpowder isn't really pressure sensitive like that. You can go on youtube and watch videos of people putting ammunition into hydraulic presses for fun. Hell, the whole reason the primer was invented is that having your entire propellant charge being shock and pressure sensitive is a Bad Thing when it comes to actually being able to transport your ammo.
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Aug 19, 2016 15:13
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I don't know how big of a deal this was in World War II but I know now at least tankers are absolutely fanatical about the way they handle their ammo not because they're concerned that it's going to detonate or something but because any imperfections in the long rod will make you miss your shot at a couple thousand meters
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Aug 19, 2016 15:24
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HEY GAL posted:it's a stereotype. these guys played to kill. Yes and no. Battles were not bloodless affairs but taking prisoners and ransoming them was still common practice. They could even release prisoners en mass, as Carmagnola did after Maclodio (8,000 in that case). This isn't really distinct from the rest of Europe at this time (except the Swiss) but it's still worth mentioning. Endman posted:The Italian Condotierri loving ruled the 15th and 16th centuries. No. They were the major fighting force in 15th century Italy, yes, but they had no major effect beyond that region. In the 16th century meanwhile, they were certainly effective in their own right and often valuable, but they did not make up the core of the armies that the French, Germans, and Spanish brought to the Italian Wars. Don't swing the pendulum too far the other way.
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Aug 19, 2016 15:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It will make a loud noise, though. That too. Also it will get jammed in stuff, which is why even empty casings lying around is not a great idea.
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Aug 19, 2016 15:39
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Yes and no. Battles were not bloodless affairs but taking prisoners and ransoming them was still common practice. They could even release prisoners en mass, as Carmagnola did after Maclodio (8,000 in that case). This isn't really distinct from the rest of Europe at this time (except the Swiss) but it's still worth mentioning. and people still take (officer) prisoners in the 17th century, and i wouldn;t argue those guys weren't bastards
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Aug 19, 2016 15:41
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Cyrano4747 posted:Honestly fragments of the brass aren't really going to be a problem. I've tossed surplus WW2 / 1950s era rifle rounds with bad primers into fires tons of times and all they do is pop, fart out the bullet maybe six inches, and worst case the neck splits. You would need a REALLY heavy crimp on the bullet to hold it in long enough to develop enough pressure to rupture the brass. Or more succinctly, there's a reason guns have a firing mechanism that hits with such force and focus that it leaves a dent in metal. It's to make sure recoil, dropping a magazine or ammo box, or smacking your weapon against poo poo doesn't gangfire everything inside it. There are plenty of actual explosives that you can straight up burn and they won't explode, because they need a heavy shock to actually detonate. Stability is generally admired in propellants and explosives because you want them to go boom only according to plan and never at any other time. This isn't really anything new to the likes of half the thread but since almost anyone can show up 
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Aug 19, 2016 15:41
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Two Germans and their Maultier:  e: Army guy is carrying the proud rank of Oberstabsgefreiter, also known as NATO-Zebra for all the stripes.  There's a really horrible official US Army OSHA communique with a pic of a soldier who used the primer end of a 50cal round to bang on something or other and more precisely what his hand looked like afterwards roughly like Sideshow Bob's hairdo. I'm not looking for it and you don't want to see it anyway. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 16:08
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aphid_licker posted:e: Army guy is carrying the proud rank of Oberstabsgefreiter, also known as NATO-Zebra for all the stripes.
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Aug 19, 2016 16:26
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I want the rank of superstabbyfriend too. I also didn't know the G36 had a folding stock.
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Aug 19, 2016 16:35
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HEY GAL posted:21st century has too many ranks At least some branches have the basic decency to change the whole insignia design between junior/NCO/Senior NCO. 
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Aug 19, 2016 16:39
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HEY GAL posted:it's a stereotype. these guys played to kill. is there a good book to read about these mercenary armies? and also about italian city state politics during that period?
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Aug 19, 2016 17:04
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Foul Fowl posted:is there a good book to read about these mercenary armies? and also about italian city state politics during that period? The Prince. 
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Aug 19, 2016 17:07
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FAUXTON posted:Stability is generally admired in propellants and explosives because you want them to go boom only according to plan and never at any other time. But it's not so admired that it's the only priority, because if all you have is a very hard-to-detonate explosive that's not so good either. So generally you have a *small* quantity of an unstable primary explosive and you use that to detonate your main charge of secondary explosive. I'm not sure what they use in tank shells but centerfire ammunition is frequently lead azide or lead styphnate or DDNP for newer lead-free primers. If these weren't fairly impact-sensitive, they wouldn't work in primers.
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Aug 19, 2016 17:14
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Foul Fowl posted:is there a good book to read about these mercenary armies? and also about italian city state politics during that period? http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/Mallett_MercenariesMasters.htm Though Mallett repeats some of the stupid myths of medieval armies being unprofessional and lacking a "science of war", this book is very good overall.
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Aug 19, 2016 17:23
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Hogge Wild posted:I've read the same thing too about the mercs just pretending to fight. I wonder who wrote about it in the first place? There are contemporary reports of Borderers slacking off, or switching sides, during the Anglo-Scottish wars, particularly during the Rough Wooing. Of course, those weren't professional mercenaries, and the wars were being fought over their lands, so it's not really surprising that they were just out for loot and survival. david_a posted:That was kind of what I was wondering. Maybe the use of horses descends from a cavalry tradition or something? I can't imagine any old-school cavalry charging into battle with donkeys and mules... Did any army ever use mules or donkeys as mounts? Seems like they'd be good for mounted infantry. Also a donkey in barding would be adorable.
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Aug 19, 2016 17:30
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haven't dragoons got enough to deal with
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Aug 19, 2016 17:36
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/Mallett_MercenariesMasters.htm it will make for some fine reading at work, thank you 
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Aug 19, 2016 18:05
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Phanatic posted:But it's not so admired that it's the only priority, because if all you have is a very hard-to-detonate explosive that's not so good either. So generally you have a *small* quantity of an unstable primary explosive and you use that to detonate your main charge of secondary explosive. I'm not sure what they use in tank shells but centerfire ammunition is frequently lead azide or lead styphnate or DDNP for newer lead-free primers. If these weren't fairly impact-sensitive, they wouldn't work in primers. Yes but for the purposes of our discussion about whether hitting a cartridge will cause it to go off, they're not THAT sensitive. A firing pin gives a primer a substantial whack on a very narrow surface. It's very uncommon for old or weak springs to cause guns not to fire, despite a clear indentation in the primer.
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Aug 19, 2016 18:11
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smokeless maybe not, but isn't black powder vulnerable to going off when it's jostled? i remember hearing that you've got your biggest risk of an accidental discharge when you're ramming
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Aug 19, 2016 18:14
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Arquinsiel posted:Reminds me of the Irish nationalists that went to Spain to help Franco. Brought no gear so Germany equipped them with dyed green M1935 uniforms and Kar 98s enough to sort the whole Battalion, which immediately marched up a hill, engaged in some spirited but ineffective friendly fire then marched back down and stood around guarding stuff until they were sent home before the war ended. Eoin O'Duffy left Fine Gael in '34 to form the National Corporate Party.
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Aug 19, 2016 18:15
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HEY GAL posted:you've got your biggest risk of an accidental discharge when you're ramming heh
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Aug 19, 2016 18:17
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Additional safety question - In videos of guys loading and firing old guns and artillery, you see a lot of safety precautions like cleaning out the residue, swabbing down the barrel in case of left over embers, placing a wooden block to shield against stuff coming out of the fuse hole etc. In a real battle, do any sufficiently brave people cut corners on parts of these procedures to improve rate of fire?
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Aug 19, 2016 18:27
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Fangz posted:Additional safety question - In videos of guys loading and firing old guns and artillery, you see a lot of safety precautions like cleaning out the residue, swabbing down the barrel in case of left over embers, placing a wooden block to shield against stuff coming out of the fuse hole etc. In a real battle, do any sufficiently brave people cut corners on parts of these procedures to improve rate of fire? There's something wrong with our bloody guns today!
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Aug 19, 2016 18:28
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Mr Enderby posted:There are contemporary reports of Borderers slacking off, or switching sides, during the Anglo-Scottish wars, particularly during the Rough Wooing. Of course, those weren't professional mercenaries, and the wars were being fought over their lands, so it's not really surprising that they were just out for loot and survival. wild asses were used to pull early chariots i guess that mules are slow and have attitude problems, otherwise someone would have used them probably someone has experimented with most of the animals, but only very few of them are useful eg. swedes and soviets tried to raise moose cavalry sorry for the bad links: http://stockholm.headsaflamemedia.com/2014/03/08/in-the-1700s-the-swedish-cavalry-experimented-with-moose/ http://onpasture.com/2013/12/02/once-upon-a-time-we-farmed-moose/
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Aug 19, 2016 18:38
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Obviously when the Italian armies met on the field, they'd be in it to win it, but there was this whole extra financial dimension to inter-italian warfare because the Italian states had more money to burn than men. They were constantly buying out the contracts of enemy mercenaries, and Federico da Montefeltro actually made a pretty penny selling the promise to not fight against someone. Or am I misunderstanding things and it was like that everywhere else? Italy seems like the perfect place for mercenaries to shop around for employers. Lots of states really close together that are absolutely oozing money and vendettas.
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Aug 19, 2016 18:47
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