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I miss Patti, it's a shame she died on the way back to her home planet.
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Aug 19, 2016 20:59
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BrianWilly posted:I mean...I like Barry and Iris' scenes but lol if you think the Teen Choice Awards aren't pre-rigged as hell. You know, I think this thread has always given me the wrong impression of fandom. We don't tend to worry too much about shipping. But I've only recently realised that for a lot of fans it seems to be the reason they watch the show (and probably any CW show, to be honest). Like, I remember reading a report about the Arrow Q&A from one of the big conventions earlier this year, and it seemed like half the questions were about whether Oliver and Felicity were getting back together, whether they'd get married when they got back together etc. I don't really get the appeal of shipping myself. I can usually see when that sort of thing works and I don't really give it a second thought unless I can see it doesn't (e.g. Troi and Worf in the last couple of seasons of TNG) but it's hardly the reason why I watch the show (or any show, really). It doesn't make sense to me when I see, for example, people having these really vicious arguments over whether Harry Potter should have been paired off with Hagrid instead of Ginny Weasley, for instance.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:33
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Xelkelvos posted:I'm sorry, I think you meant to write Barry and Felicity or Barry and Patti
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Aug 19, 2016 21:43
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Barry and Kara are the best couple by far.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:55
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Jack of Hearts posted:Barry and Kara are the best couple by far. Well, obviously.
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Aug 19, 2016 22:05
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Jack of Hearts posted:Barry and Kara are the best couple by far. Kara and ice cream are right up there
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Aug 19, 2016 22:26
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Jack of Hearts posted:Barry and Kara are the best couple by far.
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Aug 19, 2016 23:06
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Barry/Any white chick apparently!
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Aug 20, 2016 01:58
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That's pretty racist, man. Kara's Kryptonian.
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Aug 20, 2016 02:07
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tsob posted:Didn't Arrow already have a Suicide Squad, including a Deadshot? Yep, and it was one of the best answers to "What do we do with defeated villains on this CW DC show?" that they've had. Deadshot was great, too. They'd occasionally have an episode, and it would be fun.
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Aug 20, 2016 05:55
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Koalas March posted:Barry/Any white chick apparently! Linda was also at least OK. I think I get where you're coming from. Iris is Barry's canonical love interest, so at a minimum it'd be an unsettling coincidence to cast a black actress to play the part and then deliberately render the character more or less irrelevant by taking that away from her. And I could see Gustin and Patton making it work if the writing for their relationship weren't so abysmal. I'd be perfectly happy with Barry-Iris if it were written at the level of Kara-James. I'm not super invested in the latter couple, but it seems to work well enough.
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Aug 20, 2016 06:26
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It puzzles me that they are sticking to Barry/Iris so loving hard when they threw Ollie/Dinah out the window of a moving train over on Arrow. I wonder when Kara is going to dump Jimmy in favor of a space horse.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:19
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Rhyno posted:It puzzles me that they are sticking to Barry/Iris so loving hard when they threw Ollie/Dinah out the window of a moving train over on Arrow. I wonder when Kara is going to dump Jimmy in favor of 
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Aug 20, 2016 23:50
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Rhyno posted:It puzzles me that they are sticking to Barry/Iris so loving hard when they threw Ollie/Dinah out the window of a moving train over on Arrow. I wonder when Kara is going to dump Jimmy in favor of a space horse. Because they have different EPs. Guggenheim is enamored with Felicity (even let olicity fans pick her code name, which coincidentally is the name of a book he wrote iirc) And Geoff Johns even shaded him in a tweet that basically said the Arrow writers don't understand the source material. He is also good friends with Candice Patton, she posts the Flash themed gifts he gives her on Instagram a lot. The CW also loves to cater to shippers and the WestAllen fans are very vocal and organized. Most of them are WoC too, and they're always telling the writers/producers/cast how invested they are in Iris' role and their relationship. There's been more then one article about how important Barry/Iris is because of how black women have stereotypically been portrayed and her being The Flash's greatest love is a huge deal. I agree with this as everyone probably knows by now and I'd hate to have their iconic relationship get erased because it be a huge step back. Not only that but it encourage the racists who have been very vocal about her casting. Kinda got the same thing going on with Zendaya/Spiderman right now too.
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Aug 21, 2016 00:01
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Geoff Johns is basically his boss too, so you know that's some hardcore shipping.
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Aug 21, 2016 00:25
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Well, Ollie and Dinah in the comics have a fairly on-again-off-again relationship, as opposed to Barry and Iris who are just flat-out soulmated married couples for most of their existence; at the time Arrow started off, Ollie and Dinah weren't connected at all. I'm sure that made the showrunners think they had a bit of wiggle room with their relationship...though at some point "wiggle room" turned a bit more into "convulsing stadium."
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Aug 21, 2016 00:49
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But really the reason for that is that Black Canary is her own character with her own stories, while Iris isn't. So everything between her and Barry is usually perfect and fine until a villain needs a bargaining chip.
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Aug 21, 2016 00:53
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Iris almost had her own stories as a journalist. But then she got a job as another one of Barry's cheerleaders at STAR labs.
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Aug 21, 2016 01:17
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While we're on the subject, I'd like to take a moment to point out the obvious fact that shippers aren't exactly the most mentally stable of people. If you want examples, go look at the meltdowns on Tumblr after Naruto, and more recently, Bleach ended. Also, the actual harrassment of actresses from the CW shows because a certain ship fandom disliked them.
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Aug 21, 2016 01:28
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Scyantific posted:If you want examples, go look at the meltdowns on Tumblr after Naruto, and more recently, Bleach ended. Also, the actual harrassment of actresses from the CW shows because a certain ship fandom disliked them. Huh. I used to be into Bleach. How did it end?
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Aug 21, 2016 03:05
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Wheat Loaf posted:Huh. I used to be into Bleach. How did it end? Hilariously bad. Series got canned about 2-3 months ago with almost zero warning so the current storyline was brought to a very abrupt end. But the final pairings between characters more than made up for it due to how salty fans are getting right now. There's currently a post-mortem thread in ADTRW if you wanna see how bad things got.
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Aug 21, 2016 05:40
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Shippers are mad crazy for sure, and are especially bad when they begin making GBS threads on anything that interferes with their ship. Iris fans are vocal in their love for her, but some of the worst ones are loving hateful toward Caitlin and Patty in particular. Patty was never the best written on the show, but the amount of poo poo that got slung at her and her actress by the crazy Iris fans was startling. Caitlin was in a similar boat in season 1 when they were teasing Barry and Caitlin having feelings for each other. Not so much hate toward Linda, but I imagine that has to do with Linda being such a short-term entity/woman of color herself. Yet funny enough, Eddie never got that much flack despite him and Iris being in a committed relationship for all of season 1. The message is that it's okay if Iris hooks up with a man who isn't Barry, but if Barry so much looks at another woman then all hell breaks loose. That said they are nothing compared to the Felicity's insane loving group, which was outright cheering over Laurel's death over social media and trying to justify it as good writing. A friend once told me that the only people who genuinely love Arrow are the people who love Felicity, and there's a reason why "Felicity and Friends" has become a frequent title replacement. Guess what I'm trying to say here is shipping is both the life and death of all series where the majority of characters are in the 18-25 range.
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Aug 21, 2016 06:33
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I just don't see why people want to see Iris and Barry together so badly when the show has handled the entire thing poorly from day one.
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Aug 21, 2016 07:51
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That's like the literal least of the show's problems right now.
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Aug 21, 2016 08:59
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This show has problems? I haven't noticed any.
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Aug 21, 2016 09:05
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Of all the things I don't care about, "Which of Barry's dumb love interests is going to pan out?" is the thing I don't care about the most. I would ask "Who cares?" but it's plainly obvious that some people care a great deal for reasons I absolutely cannot fathom. loving time remnants make more sense to me than getting this invested in the poorly written relationships of fictional characters.
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Aug 23, 2016 11:03
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Elite posted:Of all the things I don't care about, "Which of Barry's dumb love interests is going to pan out?" is the thing I don't care about the most. There's actually been some good discussion about colorism, stereotypes and the media's representation of black women in the last few pages of the USPol thread. Iris West comes up. There are little girls growing up thinking their skin color makes them ugly. Iris West being a *superhero's* love interest is a huge loving deal to them.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:19
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Elite posted:Of all the things I don't care about, "Which of Barry's dumb love interests is going to pan out?" is the thing I don't care about the most. Speedsters Going Their Own Way
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Aug 23, 2016 13:17
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ruddiger posted:I want Caitlin to end up on some kind of Suicide Squad. Since the movies are doing their own version of Flash, and Supergirl has its own Superman, they should say gently caress it and do their own version of SS. But other than that, with two versions of the Flash existing between film and TV, I can see DC execs having Gollum-style conversations at night between the side that insists on preserving the dumb DC embargo on different versions of characters, and the side that wants that sweet ad revenue that Flash is getting with its ratings. Maybe they'll end up axing the movie instead?  re: Race talk - I'm not sure which option is more progressive, Iris or Patty. Sure, Iris is black and that's cool, but she's also entirely defined by her relationship with Barry. Patty is a female character who also does things. I'm fine with framing the discussion purely in PC terms because all other factors are irrelevant. With the current quality of writing the result will be poo poo anyway, might as well be progressive poo poo.
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Aug 23, 2016 14:31
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Pizdec posted:The Arrowverse version of SS was pretty awesome, so I'd be glad to see them back. I'm going to quote my USPol posts. Koalas March posted:
Koalas March posted:
Basically Barry ending up with a white chick would be a HUGE step back. They casted a black Iris on purpose. She is supposed to be the love of his life. They were making a statement with the casting and Barry ended up with anyone else would be a gently caress you to black fans. It would reinforce the idea that black women are not desirable. This would have a huge impact on black women who are fans of the show and there are quite a few of them. Like a lot. This honestly impacts me personally because: Koalas March posted:Colorism is so drat prevalent still. My little sister is darker than I and the way people treated us differently growing up taught me a lot about it. She used to say that wished she was lightskinned so she could be considered pretty. As I got older one thing I hate the most is hearing "You're pretty for a black girl". It's hosed up on so many levels. Koalas March posted:And yeah, she is 21 now and she still has a little of internalized colorism. I've talked to her about it extensively, she just really feels that in our society you can't be attractive unless you look white. Which is obviously reinforced by the media. This is why I'm always pushing for more black leading ladies. Oddly enough, Iris West on The Flash had a big impact on her (and me too, tbh) which is why I'm always in The Flash thread pushing for Iris whenever anyone shits on her or her/Barry. I think people downplay how important of a role media portrayals are w/r/t what our society finds acceptable/good/attractive etc. So yeah, it may seem like dumb shipping to you guys, but it's actually part of a the larger picture that is misogyny towards black women and a big lack of intersectionality and little black girls who grow up thinking they can't be loved or wanted because their skin is too dark.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:39
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Having read that entire discussion yesterday, I feel like you're leaving something out that wasn't addressed when asked (that I recall): Why was Iris dating Eddie not as big a deal as Barry dating someone else? Especially since we know the outcome is still their marriage. That said, I never really thought about Iris being cast as a black person as anything other than a casting choice.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:45
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I agree with everything Koalas March is saying, and for the record I like Iris when she is on her own or when she and Barry are in a stable relationship (E2 Iris for life). What is dumb is the cliche "will they/won't they" stuff, the constant love triangles and manufactured drama to keep them apart. That's where stuff becomes cheesy and eye-rolly and contrived. I think that's where the accusations of lack of chemistry are coming in, they have to constantly act into each other but not enough that they will finally just get together. One episode Iris finally realizes she loves Barry and wants to pursue him, the next week she goes on a date with her boss who then disappears. I would love if they would just get them together and have a relationship that remains constant and strong, not that there can't be drama but no on-again/off-again crap. I love Candice Patton and the character in general is good when given the right material to work with. Thanks for the perspective KM!
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Aug 23, 2016 17:16
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It's even worse than will they/won't they since they had numerous time travel things showing yes. So it's just filling time in that case.
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Aug 23, 2016 17:17
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No Butt Stuff posted:Having read that entire discussion yesterday, I feel like you're leaving something out that wasn't addressed when asked (that I recall): Some black fans liked Eddie but we all knew he was just "In the way". He never got a lot of characterization besides was cop, loves Iris and we never really saw many intimate parts of their relationship. It's a good step in a way, because yes, it showed she was desirable (by 2 guys!) but at the same time we knew Eddie would die or turn evil, and barely got anything interesting out of their relationship other than Barry angst. Although "Did you break up!?" was really funny and cute. I miss season 1 Barry  quote:That said, I never really thought about Iris being cast as a black person as anything other than a casting choice. Just wondering, are you white? It was kinda a big deal in the black nerd sphere when it happened. There was lots of racism/misogynoir and still is. It's kinda the same thing that happened to Zendaya and Tessa Thompson. The hate for Iris West Is Real And it needs to be squashed because Candice playing Iris is import to a lot of people. Especially kids: Candice Patton posted:If people are inspired, I think that’s great. I’ve been inspired by so many actors, musicians, talents that have come before me, and the fact that anyone could see me as inspiring is only my way of giving back,” Patton said. “It means a lot to me. This is why I do conventions, to meet the fans who are inspired. It’s great seeing a young black girl come up to me, so excited that I’m Iris West. I tweeted something months ago, some young girl said, ‘Iris West looks like me. We’re beautiful!’ That’s powerful! The media is very powerful, and whether Geoff Johns and Andrew Kreisberg and Greg Berlanti know this or not, but casting me has made a huge difference in a lot of people’s lives, and that’s important. The media is very important. TV shows are very important. Iris West being black is very important. And that matters to me. It’s not something that I take lightly. It’s not something that I’m unaware of. I wear that badge proudly. http://www.thenerdmachine.com/candice-patton-at-dragon-con-2015-iris-west-being-black-is-very-important/ I also hate the will/won't they and wish they'd drop it. I think everyone does at this point. Candice basically gave an interview saying they were exploring their relationship this season and I hope that means they just get together and stay that way. I'd like to say Iris hunting metahumans as an ace reporter and Barry catching them. Humanely. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 17:18
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Koalas March posted:I also hate the will/won't they and wish they'd drop it. I think everyone does at this point. Candice basically gave an interview saying they were exploring their relationship this season and I hope that means they just get together and stay that way. I'd like to say Iris hunting metahumans as an ace reporter and Barry catching them. Humanely. I want to clarify a little too. I think white nerdy dudes like me judge the character on our own terms and miss the perspective you are presenting because it is in a huge blindspot for us. So we hate/like the character based on our own personal appeal and don't give credit for what it means to others. So again, thanks for this, it gives me a greater appreciation of Iris 
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Aug 23, 2016 17:43
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I never really had any problem with Iris personally aside from 'God this can't possibly last, they don't get along at all' and even then I blamed that more on the writing than her personally. And more so when Barry can actually interact with different women and have [Chemistry] with them! My god, they almost seem like friends or something, it's crazy! Now, if they can do that and continue to do so with Iris then we might just have a single swollen, pus-filled problem out of many solved. Because holy poo poo you've told us that they're getting together how many dumb reasons can you come up with to play this ridiculous tug of war will they- won't they game for? Will Barry accidently put on a sock inside out and realize he needs to break up with her again? Will Iris sneeze twice and then get faked out on the third to discover that things won't work out between them?
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Aug 23, 2016 18:04
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I kind of wish they'd kill off Iris and replace her with some other-Earth doppelganger. Because I'm sure Candace Patton is a perfectly adept actress, but yeah...every defining characteristic Iris has been given as a character is super boring. The political relevance of casting a black actress as a desirable, intelligent romantic lead is definitely important. But I struggle to describe Iris in any distinct ways outside of who she is or what the character means to Barry. She's a journalist, but not a very incisive one. She loves her friends and family, but who doesn't? Mostly, she's predestined to be with Barry because of reasons. Ok. Though, the common thread of "women Barry has chemistry with" tends to involve "women written as self-deprecating, awkward nerd girls with eccentric speech patterns." Somehow, there's some zen the dialogue reaches when Barry interacts with that type. Maybe the problem is that Iris isn't that, at all.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:45
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Xealot posted:I kind of wish they'd kill off Iris and replace her with some other-Earth doppelganger. Because I'm sure Candace Patton is a perfectly adept actress, but yeah...every defining characteristic Iris has been given as a character is super boring. Iris is strong willed. She went to a dangerous man, alone, to try and keep her brother out of trouble. Iris is a fighter. She punched one metahuman in the face for kidnapping her, and bashed another over the head to save Caitlin's life. Iris is thoughtful, she got Barry the microscope he wanted and got it right even though that's not really her thing. Good gift giver. Iris is brave. She shot Clock King and saved an entire police station. Iris is loyal. She stayed with Eddie even after Barry's confession and refused to break their engagement despite slowly realizing she lives Barry. Iris is forgiving. Remember that time Barry kidnapped Eddie and beat him up? She was rightfully pissed but ultimately forgave him. She also forgave her mother who abandoned and fully embraced a brother she had never met. Iris wants to help people. She went to the Flash to help Barry. She went to that guy to help Wally. She writes articles about abused women. She wanted to be a cop to help the people in Central City. These are the reasons Barry loves her. Remember when Barry was being bullied as a kid, Iris was the one who lifted him up. Iris welcomed a kid with a lot of baggage in her home. (This is in a deleted scene iirc) Not a lot of kids would. She's always been there for him, they're best friends. It makes sense. There's more but I'm about to drive back home... Koalas March fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 20:05
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I don't even get the point of all this discussion when the show never stops hitting us over the head with how Iris and Barry are destined to be together. It's obviously going to happen, it's just this show sucks at romantic relationships so they have to come up with artificial barriers for the two of them. Personally, as a black man, I don't want Iris to be the ultimate prize in this white man's power fantasy. Especially since she wasn't interested in Barry romantically for the vast majority of the show. In fact, it seems like she only started seeing him that way when everyone told her they were meant to be, not because she wanted to actually be with him.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:26
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JT Smiley posted:In fact, it seems like she only started seeing him that way when everyone told her they were meant to be, not because she wanted to actually be with him. Yeah they kind of acknowledge that she really started feeling confused when she found out 1) they were together in RF's future timeline and 2) they were together on E2, so it's really kind of a weird situation. It looks like at least for the first few episodes of the next season Barry is going to meet an Iris who doesn't really know him and so we'll see how they would meet and start dating as adults. Then of course Barry will fix the Flashpoint timeline and go back to the 95% "real" timeline where Eddie will be alive again and married to Iris, whomp whomp.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:32
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