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Timby posted:I don't have the time to post a bit-by-bit breakdown of some of the stuff that's come out during discovery in the Axanar lawsuit, but the long story short is that the director of Prelude to Axanar has said, under oath, that Alec Peters developed Axanar as a spec project, that he believed that crowdfunding the fan-film would make CBS and Paramount bring him to the table, and his idea was that they'd buy it from him and he'd be one of the chiefs of Trek's creative future (and Tony Todd says that he was led to believe that Axanar was an officially licensed project). After they told him to pound sand, he started throwing his tantrums, doing profit-making ventures, all that poo poo. Well, if he was led on I'd say that goes a long way to explain some of the wilder poo poo that went on.
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Aug 20, 2016 04:04
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Timby posted:I don't have the time to post a bit-by-bit breakdown of some of the stuff that's come out during discovery in the Axanar lawsuit, but the long story short is that the director of Prelude to Axanar has said, under oath, that Alec Peters developed Axanar as a spec project, that he believed that crowdfunding the fan-film would make CBS and Paramount bring him to the table, and his idea was that they'd buy it from him and he'd be one of the chiefs of Trek's creative future (and Tony Todd says that he was led to believe that Axanar was an officially licensed project). After they told him to pound sand, he started throwing his tantrums, doing profit-making ventures, all that poo poo. This story is the gift that keeps on giving. I really hope Discovery references the battle of Axanar, just to rub salt in the wound.
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Aug 20, 2016 04:08
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Nessus posted:Was the TOS warp scale squared or cubed? Like was warp 2 4 times the speed of light, or 8? I think even the warp cube thing is an unnecessary retcon, it's never mentioned on screen and it would still lead to ludicrous travel times at anything less than like warp 8. Even at that speed on the cube scale it would take like 3 days to get to Alpha Centauri from Earth. Warp 5 would just be a complete slog to get anywhere, weeks between even relatively close star systems. It's just a number denoting plot urgency; it was never consistent from the start and trying to make systematic sense of it is impossible.
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Aug 20, 2016 05:01
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Big Mean Jerk posted:This story is the gift that keeps on giving. I really hope Discovery references the battle of Axanar, just to rub salt in the wound. Axanar was the Federation's biggest failure. They put a man in charge of something he had no business meddling in. We don't speak about it anymore.
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Aug 20, 2016 06:15
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Timby posted:I don't have the time to post a bit-by-bit breakdown of some of the stuff that's come out during discovery in the Axanar lawsuit, but the long story short is that the director of Prelude to Axanar has said, under oath, that Alec Peters developed Axanar as a spec project, that he believed that crowdfunding the fan-film would make CBS and Paramount bring him to the table, and his idea was that they'd buy it from him and he'd be one of the chiefs of Trek's creative future (and Tony Todd says that he was led to believe that Axanar was an officially licensed project). After they told him to pound sand, he started throwing his tantrums, doing profit-making ventures, all that poo poo. pffffffft wow, how does someone get to be so deluded? fake edit: Oh man, his bio on Memory Alpha has this gem too: quote:... Peters' repute has grown to such a degree that he was sought out to facilitate the auctioning-off of the production assets of the revamped 2003 Battlestar Galactica franchise. To this end he founded in 2008 his own auction company Propworx, Inc. that held multiple auctions, selling off production materials from several science fiction franchises, including four that involved the Star Trek franchise. Propworx went bankrupt in 2012, owing consignors and creditors hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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Aug 20, 2016 07:43
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Wait, wasn't everything that came out of Axanar pretty much overwhelmingly terrible?
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Aug 20, 2016 07:48
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FilthyImp posted:I hope it's more like We don't speak of Commander Boreale.
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Aug 20, 2016 07:55
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Sash! posted:I know WARP 9 ENGAGE!!!!!! is a Trek convention, but they'd have been better served by just using nautical conventions or reactor output percentages. This is the best solution. Plot a course to the Neutral Zone, maximum warp! It always has a better ring than random numbers.
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Aug 20, 2016 08:00
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Zurui posted:Wait, wasn't everything that came out of Axanar pretty much overwhelmingly terrible? Prelude to Axanar was good... but yeah everything else is pretty lovely. I just watched the ENT episode where Reed and Major MACO have a "They Live" esq fight in the corridors, unfortunately, nobody was forced to wear glasses to see the non-corporeal alien of the week.
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Aug 20, 2016 08:35
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Re: warp chat, I didn't even know that that the scale was supposed to be logarithmic or whatever until I started reading this thread. I'd always just assumed that Warp 8 was twice the speed of Warp 4. They never say outright that warp 9.5 is many times faster than Warp 9 and not knowing that really didn't change anything about what was going on on the screen. I get that this stuff is all in the technical manual or whatever, but so much of what we see doesn't reflect that kind of massive difference between numbers. I mean, just think of all the time they spend puttering around at Warp 2 or Warp 4 or whatever. To me that always conveyed "we're not in a big hurry" as opposed to "we're willing to spend weeks doing something that would only take us a few hours at top speed." It would be like if a modern naval ship decided to just turn the engines off and start rowing for a while. Yeah, it saves energy, but come on. Also the whole Warp 5 limit becomes even more absurd. Plus every time there's a sequence where they're speeding up/slowing down, they tend to go through the Warp factors at a more-or-less even interval.
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Aug 20, 2016 12:18
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What gets me about the universal translator is that it makes people appear to be speaking whatever language you are. This seems like it would be way too easy to be a spy. That Romulan guy can kidnap Troi and she doesn't even have to learn Romulan, she can just speak normally and everyone else hears Romulan. I can understand how they could trick the brain into hearing the right language, but surely the person's mouth won't line up since that person is actually speaking their native language. I don't understand how the captain of the warbird didn't immediately notice that this Tal Shiar officer's mouth wasn't lining up right. Or even that there isn't some mode that notifies you that the supposed Romulan you're speaking to is being translated. Like some sort of notification sound the first time you speak to someone to let you know they are speaking a different language.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:26
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What's weird in Beyond is that it implies everyone is actually talking English all the time, even the aliens. When the universal translator is busted out, there's actually a noticeable delay.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:35
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The_Doctor posted:What's weird in Beyond is that it implies everyone is actually talking English all the time, even the aliens. When the universal translator is busted out, there's actually a noticeable delay. It doesn't just imply it, it states it outright twice. Scotty is surprised that Jaylah speaks English (and she explains it as having learned it from the computers in the Franklin) and Uhura asks Krall why he knows their language (to which he says the he knows "their kind"). The universal translator works the way I always understood it was supposed to work, but on TV they couldn't really do it effectively since it would get obnoxious if there were more than one character using it. Plus by TNG I think they're supposed to be earpieces rather than speakers.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:51
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cenotaph posted:This is the best solution. Plot a course to the Neutral Zone, maximum warp! It always has a better ring than random numbers. They do that with impulse, remember - "ahead, one-quarter impulse" from ST6 when Kirk tells Valeris to turn on the big engine while still in spacedock.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:51
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Apollodorus posted:The universal translator works the way I always understood it was supposed to work, but on TV they couldn't really do it effectively since it would get obnoxious if there were more than one character using it. Plus by TNG I think they're supposed to be earpieces rather than speakers. By TNG it uses magic sonic fields to filter the sound so you don't hear the original, I think. They're built into commbadges. Quark and Rom and Nog have ear implants, though, we saw that at one point.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:55
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Presumably they have a Federation standard language. Andorian, I imagine, because everyone other than the Vulcans would find it hilarious to make blueskin the lingua franca.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:58
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The ton of universal translator plotholes are the most glaring aspect of Trek not being "hard" sci-fi. Even Archer goes undercover on an alien world, with UT tech that is shown to be in its infancy. All the undercover secret quadruple-agent plots wouldn't work as easily otherwise. Of course, with their arbitrary tech, Kira and Troi could have simply had Cardassian and Romulan language written straight into their brains and it wouldn't have come close to being the least believable thing about those plots. I loved how the UT worked in Beyond, but I was simultaneously annoyed at how different it was from every other Trek ever.
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Aug 20, 2016 17:18
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Paradoxish posted:DS9's fighters were really more like PT boats than space planes. It doesn't seem like a problem to me. Yeah, "fighters" in Star Trek really only make sense as smaller ships that are used when you don't need a big one. Or, in the case of the Dominion war, they were probably pushed into service outside their usual capacities (probably patrol ships or scouts) because they needed to get as spaceboats as possible into the fight.
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Aug 20, 2016 17:29
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In Star Trek VI they couldn't use the UT to speak to the Klingons when they were going to rescue Kirk because they said it would sound "too obvious". I guess the technology really improved in ~70 years to the point where Troi could pass as a Romulan so flawlessly.
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Aug 20, 2016 18:54
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Sure, but in S4 of Enterprise there's a plot where the Enterprise is putting off a Klingon signature to chase down Not-Data and Archer bluffs a Klingon ship via the UT that he's transporting the Chancellor, so it's not even consistent in-universe. Which is like the core of Trek. They introduce something, give it a few token uses and then completely ignore it or contradict it at a later point.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:51
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EvilTaytoMan posted:In Star Trek VI they couldn't use the UT to speak to the Klingons when they were going to rescue Kirk because they said it would sound "too obvious". I guess the technology really improved in ~70 years to the point where Troi could pass as a Romulan so flawlessly. In the novelization it's explained that the UT feed is broken and that's why we get that "hilarious" scene.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:09
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How does the Universal Translator work? "Very well, thank you"
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Aug 20, 2016 20:40
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The Universal Translator is like the transporter, it's there to facilitate the story and get it moving quicker.Zurui posted:In the novelization it's explained that the UT feed is broken and that's why we get that "hilarious" scene. If I remember right the novelization suggested that Valeris sabotaged the UT.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:41
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:The Universal Translator is like the transporter, it's there to facilitate the story and get it moving quicker. The problem with this (and with big inconsistencies in sci-fi in general) is when you break your own rules often enough that even casual viewers start to notice. The UT fades into the background enough that I doubt most people notice, but "why can't they just use the transporter?" is something I've heard literally every single time I've watched Star Trek with a non-Trek fan.
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Aug 20, 2016 21:54
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Apollodorus posted:They do that with impulse, remember - "ahead, one-quarter impulse" from ST6 when Kirk tells Valeris to turn on the big engine while still in spacedock. Cattrall's reading of that line always bugs me. She puts an unusual emphasis on "only," when she says, "thrusters only while in Spacedock," and it makes it sound like Spacedock is the only place thrusters can be used. mllaneza posted:Well, if he was led on I'd say that goes a long way to explain some of the wilder poo poo that went on. Don't forget, Axanar continued to promote Todd as being part of the cast for almost a year after he quit.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:07
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:If I remember right the novelization suggested that Valeris sabotaged the UT. Valeris' betrayal is a complete blindside in the novelization. She's a POV character for part of it and at no point does it even hint at the idea that she's doing anything but being a good Starfleet officer. Then her betrayal comes around and it makes zero sense with her character. Valeris struggles with being a Vulcan because she was raised on another planet by a dad who gave up logic because the Klingons killed his wife. She was only was exposed to Vulcan ideals as an adult. Like, the motivations are there but she talks about how she's dealt with all that and decided to be Vulcan and then she decides to become part of this conspiracy for...reasons? The conspiracy to assassinate Gorkon is flimsier in the books because, once again, we get to see more of it and the Klingon side is just...what?
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Aug 21, 2016 01:25
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Zurui posted:Valeris' betrayal is a complete blindside in the novelization. She's a POV character for part of it and at no point does it even hint at the idea that she's doing anything but being a good Starfleet officer. Then her betrayal comes around and it makes zero sense with her character. Valeris struggles with being a Vulcan because she was raised on another planet by a dad who gave up logic because the Klingons killed his wife. She was only was exposed to Vulcan ideals as an adult. Like, the motivations are there but she talks about how she's dealt with all that and decided to be Vulcan and then she decides to become part of this conspiracy for...reasons? The conspiracy to assassinate Gorkon is flimsier in the books because, once again, we get to see more of it and the Klingon side is just...what? Better dead than Fed
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Aug 21, 2016 01:29
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Zurui posted:Valeris' betrayal is a complete blindside in the novelization. She's a POV character for part of it and at no point does it even hint at the idea that she's doing anything but being a good Starfleet officer. Then her betrayal comes around and it makes zero sense with her character. Valeris struggles with being a Vulcan because she was raised on another planet by a dad who gave up logic because the Klingons killed his wife. She was only was exposed to Vulcan ideals as an adult. Like, the motivations are there but she talks about how she's dealt with all that and decided to be Vulcan and then she decides to become part of this conspiracy for...reasons? The story goes that the writers originally wanted to bring back Saavik, and have her be the one to betray the crew. Now THAT would have been shocking. But the powers that be wouldn't let them do it, so they invented Saavik 2.0 and called her Valeris.
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Aug 21, 2016 01:55
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Powered Descent posted:The story goes that the writers originally wanted to bring back Saavik, and have her be the one to betray the crew. Now THAT would have been shocking. But the powers that be wouldn't let them do it, so they invented Saavik 2.0 and called her Valeris. Meyer wasn't a fan of Robin Curtis' portrayal and wanted Kirstie Alley back as Saavik. However, at that point, she had become a huge movie and television star, and the already cash-strapped production couldn't afford her.
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Aug 21, 2016 02:16
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Was it her or was it her agent that wanted more money?
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Aug 21, 2016 02:26
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My understanding is her agent wanted more money and she just wanted to be in more Star Trek.
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Aug 21, 2016 02:37
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One more word about warp- in the second season TOS episode By Any Other Name, the Kelvans are able to modify the Enterprise so it can get to the Andromeda Galaxy in only 300 years, mercifully they only make mention once where Chekov cranks up the ship so that it goes to Warp 11. They do so, but that's just while they're still in our galaxy; I'd imagine they cranked it up to something higher once they got past the negative energy barrier.
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Aug 21, 2016 02:57
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Cojawfee posted:Was it her or was it her agent that wanted more money? The story is that her agent botched the negotiations on The Search for Spock (I think he never bothered to counter-offer the original proposal and never communicated it to Alley, only saying that they weren't offering enough). By the time The Undiscovered Country rolled around, she had already been nominated for multiple Emmys and had headlined several incredibly successful movies, so her price tag had skyrocketed. Timby fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 03:11
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Timby posted:Cattrall's reading of that line always bugs me. She puts an unusual emphasis on "only," when she says, "thrusters only while in Spacedock," and it makes it sound like Spacedock is the only place thrusters can be used. With you 100% on that. Meyer should have caught it when they filmed and it is really weird. The bad line read was playing in my head when I posted!
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Aug 21, 2016 03:48
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Timby posted:Cattrall's reading of that line always bugs me. She puts an unusual emphasis on "only," when she says, "thrusters only while in Spacedock," and it makes it sound like Spacedock is the only place thrusters can be used. That's not good, no. However it is exactly that that makes me believe Todd when he says anything that makes Peters look…. better.
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Aug 21, 2016 06:05
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Enterprise re-watch completed. I never actually saw "These are the Voyages" during its first run. I'm sure there's nothing I can say about the episode that hasn't already been brought up, but god drat is that episode disgusting. I'd rather rewatch Threshold back to back than watch this one again. I get what they were trying to do, bringing two beloved characters back (plus Troi) and tying everything together as a series, but gently caress making so much of the focus of Enterprise's finale on other characters. And gently caress killing Trip just to pull some last minute bullshit about giving weight to a finale. It's contrived as all hell and Trip was one of my favorites. I'm glad to see most of the cast, Frakes included, have commented on how big of a misstep it was to do the finale like that. I'm a decade late on my rage, but gently caress that was an insult to the actors doing the show and the fans that enjoyed Enterprise.
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Aug 21, 2016 15:42
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I believe all of the bad stuff in that episode was specifically from Berman/Braga or both. I know the TNG framing was for sure. It's just thrown in so poorly, since up until this point we've had little connection to the previous series shown in ENT beyond a few references like the Borg debris from 'First Contact' and (if you want to count it since it's in a different universe) the USS Defiant showing up in 'In a Mirror, Darkly'.
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Aug 21, 2016 16:16
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Mortanis posted:Enterprise re-watch completed. I never actually saw "These are the Voyages" during its first run. Jolene Blalock was super pissed during the filming and was very vocal about how insulting the entire premises of the finale was from day one.
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Aug 21, 2016 16:36
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I think part of the intention too though was to show how the two series were connected, to show ENT was "legit Trek" and part of the history of the world of TNG. It was a very poor time to show it. Had that been a midseason gimmick, it would have probably been a fan favorite on par with Trials and Tribbleations.
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Aug 21, 2016 16:37
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I dunno about 'fan favorite', but yeah, it certainly would have been better received earlier in the season. It's just incredibly pathetic no matter how you read it. For me it evoked the image of Berman and Braga sitting alone at a big conference table, moping about how the show had failed, and quietly wishing they could just go back to TNG when everything was simple and fun. Even if you take it at face-value and believe that it was an earnest "love letter to the fans", it's really sad that their best effort at doing something for fans of the show was so misguided and such a slap in the face.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:05
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