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Karloff posted:No. That's not what I said at all. I know, I read the whole Writing For Batman Bible. The problem is that you're arguing from the perspective of maximizing his appeal and marketability. However, Batman is a fictional character. You are allowed to tell different stories with him!
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Aug 20, 2016 20:37
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Burkion posted:Did you ever consider just maybe None of those things you say above are remotely explored in the film, is Batman killing a new thing for him? That Robin statue has a loving axe or something meaning he's been killing for quite a while. Yes, Alfred says that thing about "good men being cruel" but this is never explored or contextualized within the narrative, Batman is still murdering people like a maniac after his change of heart. Bearing in mind that I've not seen the Ultimate Edition, maybe that fills in all these gaps, would say that's the case? Should I watch it? Does it solve my problems? But, I still think they should have released a version that isn't utterly broken into theaters. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Have you ever had a serious change of heart about something in real life? It sneaks up on you. "Martha" isn't what changes his mind by itself, it's exactly the "last straw" you're talking about. I'd actually say, from my own experiences, when I change my mind about something big it is normally something deeper than finding out someone's Mum has the same name , yes. What are the factors in Batman's mind changing, aside from Martha, to which you refer?
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Aug 20, 2016 20:40
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Yaws posted:I've tried to read a lot of Superhero Comics and they've never really clicked with me, except for IC. I think this just means you have terrible taste.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:42
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Kurzon posted:I liked Identity Crisis. Perhaps some people hate it because it went places they would rather comics don't go. This is some incredibly dumb and pretentious bullshit even for this thread.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:50
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I know, I read the whole Writing For Batman Bible. The problem is that you're arguing from the perspective of maximizing his appeal and marketability. However, Batman is a fictional character. You are allowed to tell different stories with him! No doubt. But I'm not obligated to like every single one though. Yes, I like multiple different version of Batman, I like Adam West Batman, I like Nolan Batman, I like Scott Snyder Batman, I like Miller Batman (sometimes) I like Burton Batman, all very different, all I think are interesting and good. I do not like BvS Batman, I think he is bad, I think on the whole Batman killing does not work, though there are exceptions like the aforementioned Burton Batman and some of Miller's stuff that contextualize the killing interestingly. BvS failed to contextualize the killing interestingly. I don't care about maximizing Batman's appeal or marketability, because I don't work for Warner Bros. I do care about interesting interpretations of the character, which BvS is not. My post was arguing for when I find Batman most interesting, and arguing why I feel Batman is not interesting in BvS. I did not say that you shouldn't be allowed to tell certain Batman stories, but I have my right to criticize. If a film came out which had Batman killing but he was a complex, and interesting character taking part in a compelling and thematically rich narrative, then I might be down for it, I'm open to that. But that's not was Batman v Superman is though.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:51
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Karloff posted:No doubt. But I'm not obligated to like every single one though. Yes, I like multiple different version of Batman, I like Adam West Batman, I like Nolan Batman, I like Scott Snyder Batman, I like Miller Batman (sometimes) I like Burton Batman, all very different, all I think are interesting and good. I do not like BvS Batman, I think he is bad, I think on the whole Batman killing does not work, though there are exceptions like the aforementioned Burton Batman and some of Miller's stuff that contextualize the killing interestingly. BvS failed to contextualize the killing interestingly. Burton Batman killed more people than BvS Batman.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:55
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You must be this tall to kill.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:56
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Drifter posted:Burton Batman killed more people than BvS Batman. Yes he did, that's why I said there are exceptions.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:57
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Karloff posted:I'd actually say, from my own experiences, when I change my mind about something big it is normally something deeper than finding out someone's Mum has the same name , yes. What are the factors in Batman's mind changing, aside from Martha, to which you refer? When he argues with Alfred he talks about how many good people he's seen either die or give up on their principles, and he's self-aware enough to realize that he's not as idealistic as he used to be, that that includes himself. He realizes that what he's doing isn't working, and how killing Superman may be "the only important thing I ever do." He fights Superman and Superman goes out of his way again and again to ask him not to fight, alluding to someone he needs to save -- basically revealing himself as the kind of idealistic person that Batman used to know but who all died / gave up. Then the "Martha" stuff brings all this to his conscious attention because, hey, Superman's not actually an incomprehensible alien force, he's not a fallen angel, he's a guy with a mom and his mom's in danger, and coincidentally it's the name of Batman's dead mother (who he's been having violent nightmares about this whole time.) This is the literal plot of the film, most of it's even delivered in dialogue. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 20:58
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Karloff posted:BvS failed to contextualize the killing interestingly. I really liked the Justice League: Gods and Monsters setting where Superman was raised by undocumented Mexican migrants, Batman was a vampire and Wonder Woman was one of the New Gods and none of them had any compunction against killing. It made sense in the context and it was a logical part of an interesting take on the characters. In BvS I just get the impression that the studio wanted to ramp up the drama and the tension in the final confrontationt between Batman and Superman and put the audience in a position where they weren't sure whether they were going to kill each other or not and to do that they had to work backwards and write a scenario where Superman was pushed to the point where he was forced to kill and where Batman was pushed to the point where he was traumatised enough and world weary enough that he didn't see any option except to kill. And that's actually a pretty interesting angle on the characters and that could have made for a pretty damned good movie. But then they wanted to walk that back at the end and have the characters go "Whoaaa this is crazy, we're the good guys let's cut this poo poo out and be buddies and form the Justice League and fight supervillains" and I think they fumbled that play. Tuxedo Catfish posted:He realizes that what he's doing isn't working I think it was kind of lovely writing to spend 80% of the movie pushing the character to the point where he''s accepted that the superhero gig was ultimately pointless in the bigger picture and he'd just been helping the lovely conditions endure rather than stopping anything (which is actually true!) but then spend about 2 minutes flipping that and then carrying on. The film ended on an upswing but there'd been so many downswings before that point that it just felt slight and anticlimactic. Having Superman break through decades of Batman's layers of emotional armour and giving him hope again should have had a heck of a lot more punch than what they served up.
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Aug 20, 2016 21:20
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Codependent Poster posted:I think this just means you have terrible taste. I think BvS is utter trash so I think I've redeemed myself 
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Aug 20, 2016 21:27
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Utter trash.  You don't watch many movies, eh?
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Aug 20, 2016 21:41
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I dunno, the theatrical felt more frustrating than most films because it wasn't the product of a dumb writer/director, but a bad studio and a bad editor trying to cut the film down to make more money. Which in turn, makes it worse. So much worse.
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Aug 20, 2016 21:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:When he argues with Alfred he talks about how many good people he's seen either die or give up on their principles, and he's self-aware enough to realize that he's not as idealistic as he used to be, that that includes himself. He realizes that what he's doing isn't working, and how killing Superman may be "the only important thing I ever do." He fights Superman and Superman goes out of his way again and again to ask him not to fight, alluding to someone he needs to save -- basically revealing himself as the kind of idealistic person that Batman used to know but who all died / gave up. Then the "Martha" stuff brings all this to his conscious attention because, hey, Superman's not actually an incomprehensible alien force, he's not a fallen angel, he's a guy with a mom and his mom's in danger, and coincidentally it's the name of Batman's dead mother (who he's been having violent nightmares about this whole time.) I get that Batman is in a darker place in this film, and that first scene where Batman looks up at his trashed tower and the music stirs up is effective. But Batman discovering Superman is a good person because he mentions he wants to save someone in the fight. Really? Batman already knows Superman wants to save people, he knew this before he decided to kill him, why should it make a difference that Superman mentions to him directly that he wants to save someone? That''s not revealing himself as an idealist, it's not new information for Batman. Superman doesn't say anything to change his mind, doesn't poke holes in his perspective, there's no moment of doubt, he tries to convince not to fight for like a second, then throws him through a building. Anyway, Batman goes to execute Superman anyway, but then realizes Superman has a mummy too. And decides to not kill Superman, but only Superman, he still goes off to kill a whole bunch of other people because he hasn't changed as a character because he's barely a character in the first place.
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Aug 20, 2016 21:51
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Superman reacts to someone trying to murder him with pleas to be reasonable. That's a lot more striking in person than reading about some guy who helps people but also, you know, shoots down satellites, intervenes violently in third-world conflicts, and who you personally saw smash through a building with your friends and subordinates in it.
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Aug 20, 2016 21:59
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Karloff posted:Anyway, Batman goes to execute Superman anyway, but then realizes Superman has a mummy too. I don't understand why everyone gets this wrong. Batman talks about how he bets Superman had a mom who loved him and thought he'd be special even as he prepares to drive the spear home. What stops him is "You're letting them kill Martha", not "Martha". He finds out that Martha is the name of Superman's mom AFTER he loses his composure.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:13
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Read eurocomics, like Blueberry or Valerian. They're good.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:22
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:You must be this tall to kill.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:27
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I'm curious now if there were any "NOT MY BATMAN!" reactions around the time of the release of Burton's Batman, because this level of nerd rage is delightful.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:38
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Gorn Myson posted:I'm curious now if there were any "NOT MY BATMAN!" reactions around the time of the release of Burton's Batman, because this level of nerd rage is delightful. Yeah there were petitions. This was pre-internet as well so they were actual written petitions. 
Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 22:42
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loving Beetlejuice is going to be Batman?! gently caress you Warner Bros.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:47
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 This is an illustration from Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, underneath a title, The Ethics of Defense in Combat. From top to bottom: - killing unprovoked - provoking and then killing - reacting and killing due to prioritising oneself - reacting and neutralising without killing Even though the first three all result in death, one could hardly say they're all ethically equivalent, even though those who would call BvS Batman 'Murderman' would like to think they are. In order to fulfil the highest ideal one would need to be highly skilled (far more skilled than the opposition), and have ethical intent to ensure no deaths. MoS Superman was lacking in skill, and BvS Batman was lacking in intent or skill. It's all a far deeper way to look at the characters than to just assume they are all powerful and this capable of full filling the highest ideal at all times, a notion that Lex Luthor specifically calls out as impossible based on his experiences. (God can either be all powerful or all good, not both) Jesus Christ this shits in the text folks. How hard can it be?? Maluco Marinero fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 22:48
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Hahaha what a bunch of weenies
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Aug 20, 2016 22:48
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Finally aikido is useful for something other than comedy.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:53
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Burkion posted:Did you ever consider just maybe Are you suggesting that Batman gave up his no killing rule once he saw Superman? Because that would be some weakass storytelling. Maluco Marinero posted:In order to fulfil the highest ideal one would need to be highly skilled (far more skilled than the opposition), and have ethical intent to ensure no deaths. MoS Superman was lacking in skill, and BvS Batman was lacking in intent or skill. Here's the awesome ending to Under the Red Hood where Batman himself explains his position. SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 22:55
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Are you suggesting that Batman gave up his no killing rule once he saw Superman? Because that would be some weakass storytelling. Superman, and 20 years of a fight that he now sees as little more than weeding a garden. It's all in the text, dude.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:59
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Having Superman break through decades of Batman's layers of emotional armour and giving him hope again should have had a heck of a lot more punch than what they served up. 'Emotional armour'? Come on now. Read the film. Superman doesn't break through anything. It's as Ferrinus points out: Bruce Wayne's victory over Superman triggers a flashback to his father dying on the ground, and he realizes he's acting like a drat impotent child. (Superman, as a contrast, appears as a version of Bruce who actually grew up. Combining traits of Bruce's dad with Bruce himself.) All the visual information is about Bruce's relationship with his father, while all the dialogue is about Martha. Fans ended up fixating on Martha because, frankly, they're visually illiterate. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 23:03
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ElNarez posted:Superman, and 20 years of a fight that he now sees as little more than weeding a garden. It's all in the text, dude. The original question was why wouldn't Batman just kill the Joker. So you're saying MoS is when he decided to stop the no kill rule and now the next time Batman meets Joker he's just going to waste him, because why wouldn't he?
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Aug 20, 2016 23:05
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Brother Entropy posted:[puts hand on your shoulder solemnly]
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Aug 20, 2016 23:05
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:The original question was why wouldn't Batman just kill the Joker. So you're saying MoS is when he decided to stop the no kill rule and now the next time Batman meets Joker he's just going to waste him, because why wouldn't he? They literally show you what he does in the film, when he threatens Lex.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:12
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:The original question was why wouldn't Batman just kill the Joker. So you're saying MoS is when he decided to stop the no kill rule and now the next time Batman meets Joker he's just going to waste him, because why wouldn't he? Even at his lowest point (chasing Lex's goons in his car, then attacking Lex's facility) Batman doesn't execute people.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:14
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I guess my real question is, has the BvS Batman been OK with killing the whole time or is it a recent development?
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Aug 20, 2016 23:20
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:All the visual information is about Bruce's relationship with his father, while all the dialogue is about Martha. Fans ended up fixating on Martha because, frankly, they're visually illiterate. Since this seems like it fairly applies to me as much as anyone else, I'll go ahead and ask you to explain. It certainly doesn't seem literally true, given that both the initial flashback and Bruce's later nightmare focus on Martha Wayne. On the other hand the dialogue implies plenty about Bruce and fatherhood, given that we have Alfred basically asking him when he's going to get grandkids (never) and the setup of Bruce and Lex as sharing paranoid fantasies about male authority figures.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:22
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I guess my real question is, has the BvS Batman been OK with killing the whole time or is it a recent development? Literally the movie tells us he's become more violent and murderous recently.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:24
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I guess my real question is, has the BvS Batman been OK with killing the whole time or is it a recent development?
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Aug 20, 2016 23:26
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I guess my real question is, has the BvS Batman been OK with killing the whole time or is it a recent development? I was high off my rear end on cannabis lemonade and trying not to lose my mind while Batman screamed at me but even I grasped this plot point
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Aug 20, 2016 23:34
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Not to mention many of the bit characters mentioning how "strange it is that Batman's become so loving brutal and been 'branding people to die' over the past year/month". It's on a television news report and newspaper, for god's sake. It's always weird to see people saying things like "this, this, and this is why I hate this version of Batman; Goddamn BvS sucks Vote Trump" except their arguments are so off base they're basically proving that they've never even watched the movie.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:35
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I guess my real question is, has the BvS Batman been OK with killing the whole time or is it a recent development? Batman has always been ok with killing in every incarnation, even at his the most innocuous. The problem you have is that you are using the word 'killing' instead of more accurate terms, which leads you to extreme frustration. Batman has always killed, but he never executes. Batman has always used guns, but never carries (certain types of) guns (on his belt). The problem with Batman in BVS has nothing to do with guns or killing. The problem is that Bruce Wayne is psychotic - a person who follows what Hegel calls the "Law Of The Heart: "a self-proclaimed Savior who imagines his inner Law to be the Law for everybody and is therefore compelled, in order to explain why the 'world' does not follow his precepts, to resort to paranoid constructions, to the plotting of dark forces." -Zizek (Superman's problem, on the other hand, is that he's a "Beautiful Soul".)
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Aug 20, 2016 23:35
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I'm just trying to imagine the scenario in which Bruce was a hyper-disciplined non-lethal warrior so skilled in his training that he vowed never to take a life, to just deciding one day that he didn't care about that training. There's no middle ground where you get to be just a little murdery for a little while. That's why it seems to me that BvS Batman has always been OK with killing.
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Aug 20, 2016 23:35
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"I won't kill you." "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you." "I won't try to kill you but it's on you if you fight back." "I'll kill you to ensure you don't get back up and fight me later." *headshot with sniper rifle*
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Aug 20, 2016 23:43
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