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SystemLogoff posted:One of the people in Let's Play just self-published a short urban fantasy novel: I want to support a goon writer but you cannot expect me to take it seriously when the book is literally about a magical Taint Reaper.
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Aug 18, 2016 05:35
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SystemLogoff posted:Also, about Phoenix Guards, is it worth continuing on to the rest of the books? If you liked the style of Phoenix Guards, it's more of the same and it's worth continuing. If you didn't then it probably isn't.
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Aug 18, 2016 06:03
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Man, if you guys think F. Paul Wilson shoves his politics down your throat, you should try reading a few Brad Thor novels, cause holy poo poo at the preaching he does in those. I quit as soon at the protagonist went on a rant against multiculturalism apropos of nothing. What a shitfest those novels became in a big hurry.
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Aug 18, 2016 08:17
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Naerasa posted:I want to support a goon writer but you cannot expect me to take it seriously when the book is literally about a magical Taint Reaper. That and "vampyre ex-girlfriend". Seriously? Charles Stross already did that in a way that is far better than whatever I'd probably encounter in baby's first book.
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Aug 18, 2016 12:31
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Mr Scumbag posted:Man, if you guys think F. Paul Wilson shoves his politics down your throat, you should try reading a few Brad Thor novels, cause holy poo poo at the preaching he does in those. I quit as soon at the protagonist went on a rant against multiculturalism apropos of nothing. What a shitfest those novels became in a big hurry. ...Does he ever become anything resembling human? anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 19:27
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anilEhilated posted:Don't know about politics, but I'm about halfway through The Tomb and while it's decently pageturny and the Indian demons are neat, holy crap is the main character an unlikable poo poo. He's just perfect in every way, best at everything, everyone loves him and there's apparently like fifteen more books about him. I don't think I've actively disliked a protagonist this much since Kingkiller. Ornamented Death posted:Repairman Jack is a libertarian ubermensch. So... No.
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Aug 18, 2016 20:32
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anilEhilated posted:Uh-huh. Not gonna lie, that's a scary comparison; how bad is it with regards to politics? Well, Wilson's main character doesnt murder any anti-war protesters, but he has very positive views on vigilantism, and of course hoarding gold and guns for the inevitable collapse of civilization.
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Aug 18, 2016 21:55
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Mr.48 posted:Well, Wilson's main character doesnt murder any anti-war protesters, but he has very positive views on vigilantism, and of course hoarding gold and guns for the inevitable collapse of civilization. To be fair, this does cause him a bit of pain later and does negatively impact his relationships with people he wants to be close to in the series. Also, he's written as having (and knowing he has) some deep psychological issues due to some past (and some continuing) trauma. THere's also the later revelation that otherworldly forces have been manipulating him his entire life to get him to the point of making it very difficult to have any attachments or a normal relationship with the love of his life. They're grooming him to be the Ally's Champion Heir to fight the Adversary's Champion if the Glaekin (Ally's Champion from The Keep) gets taken out. "A spear has no branches". He actually ends up resenting the hell out of the fact he was robbed of a normal life because of it. He finds this out after his girlfriend was almost killed in hit and run and his unborn baby died in the womb. He also gets to see a lot of people important to him die as a result of these mechanicians in the lead-up to the final conflict. Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 18, 2016 22:07
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flosofl posted:To be fair, this does cause him a bit of pain later and does negatively impact his relationships with people he wants to be close to in the series. Also, he's written as having (and knowing he has) some deep psychological issues due to some past (and some continuing) trauma. Hmm, I haven't gotten that far into the Repairman Jack series before quitting because of the aforementioned rabid libertarianism, but at the end of the Adversary series the good guys do save the day by literally holding hands and singing kumbaya (which was super cheesy and out of place) so maybe I was a bit too hasty is writing off Wilson's motivations as the author.
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Aug 18, 2016 22:10
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Mr.48 posted:Hmm, I haven't gotten that far into the Repairman Jack series before quitting because of the aforementioned rabid libertarianism, but at the end of the Adversary series the good guys do save the day by literally holding hands and singing kumbaya (which was super cheesy and out of place) so maybe I was a bit too hasty is writing off Wilson's motivations as the author. It's a real slow burn, and it's mostly the last 4 or so in the lead up to Night World where poo poo starts to go off the rails. But even before that, he suffers real consequences due to my afore mentioned spoiler. He also rewrote a lot of Night World, but I can't remember if the Ghost Busters 2 sing along is still in there.
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Aug 18, 2016 22:14
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The worst repairman jack scene was when he didn't want to stop a shooting on a train because it might take him off the grid so he waited for a bit to stop the shooter and then the rest of the book is spent seemingly complaining about the fact no one else had a gun. I think he also saved christmas in this book because no one could track down some jerks who stole some gifts from kids. I read all of them when I was a teenager and I was fine with that crap but I tried rereading them as an adult and I could not stomach the politics.
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Aug 19, 2016 00:53
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I do like in Nightworld where Jack isn't the destined hero and it's the old guy that hosed up way back in the first book of the Adversary Cycle.
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Aug 19, 2016 01:15
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Man, if you guys have hosed up re-reads of Repairman Jack for me, I'm gonna be so pissed. I remember it being a bit libtard, but not as bad as people are saying. It seemed to be balanced somewhat by all the poo poo RJ's neuroses led to, though. Also, to the person who was put off by Jack being good at everything - there's an explanation for that. Also, you'd hate Jack Reacher, he's even more hypercompetent and there's no good reason for it other than the author wants his character to be the biggest badass in history. (Joe Pike is better)
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Aug 19, 2016 08:04
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Khizan posted:Pax Arcana is excellent, though. One of the best in the genre, easily. Better than Dresden, even, I think. I'm still a bit surprised that this suddenly became popular on this thread, I think I was the first person to recommend the first book years ago, and I was ruthlessly mocked for liking it and resigned myself to it being a guilty pleasure read  .I'm not sure if it's the best in the genre but I would say it's definitely better as a whole than the average Dresden book, but not the best of the best of Dresden, which has honestly had some amazing moments, even if it feels like it's been on a bit of a decline the last few books, which were good but had less just flat out amazing moments as a lot of his older books. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 11:54
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Wolpertinger posted:I'm still a bit surprised that this suddenly became popular on this thread, I think I was the first person to recommend the first book years ago, and I was ruthlessly mocked for liking it and resigned myself to it being a guilty pleasure read I remember when it was first recommended someone (you, maybe?) played up the half-wereworlf angle, and that is honestly a minor plot point for the first one and not important to enjoy the book, but immediately invokes fantasy fulfillment fanfics, so everyone said it sounded awful. Once some other brave soul read it and was like, "no, it's actually good you guys. It's not AT ALL alpha male fucks his way through the supernatural underworld while acting like an angsty teenager poo poo," and only after that did I give it a shot, and I loved it. tl;dr: You just didn't know how to sell the book to this audience. No biggie--it's great. I liked Charming so much I went and bought the rest of the series. I have yet to get back to it. Probably after I finish 11/22/63. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 19, 2016 15:51
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Blasphemeral posted:Probably after I finish 11/22/63. You'll probably need to go for a comedy palette cleanser book after that one, it's loving depressing. Really well written, but depressing as poo poo.
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Aug 19, 2016 16:54
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Wolpertinger posted:I'm still a bit surprised that this suddenly became popular on this thread, I think I was the first person to recommend the first book years ago, and I was ruthlessly mocked for liking it and resigned myself to it being a guilty pleasure read Even the best of Dresden has to compensate for Harry being an annoying toolbag who thinks he's cool, however. Dresden may have zombie dinosaurs, but Pax Arcana has the better characters, IMO.
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Aug 19, 2016 17:25
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We dont' talk nearly enough about Tim Powers in this thread. Last Call, people. Which UF series is it again where the protagonist has like mild precognition and can make optimal choices or something? Was that one of the good ones I haven't read yet, or one of the bad ones like Iron Druid that i'm actively avoiding?
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Aug 19, 2016 23:02
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Alex Verus I like Alex more than Dresden (as a character) but overall I'd say they're slightly less good (as a series)
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Aug 19, 2016 23:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:We dont' talk nearly enough about Tim Powers in this thread. Last Call, people. Alex Verus. The first book is pretty generic and very obviously in the line of a Dresden-wannabe. Around the second book he starts to walk some of that back and it's around the third or fourth who embraces the core idea of "what if you had a guy like Harry Dresden except he actually kind of WAS a terrifying shitlord instead of merely everyone thinking he was." I think it get significantly better once it hits that point but also admit I'm a book or two behind at this point. That said I think the supporting cast and general plotting is weaker than Dresden and the appeal is following a dude who made a lot of lovely decisions actually dealing with them.
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Aug 19, 2016 23:26
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The Alex Verus books are decent, certainly worth reading if you like Dresden. The overarching plot, supporting characters and world building are all weaker than Dresden though; and I cringe any time the author tries to cram in an explanation of the political machinations involved (generally boils down to half a page of silly names that I instantly forget). The books are mainly action however, which is their strong point. I actually like that part better than Dresden, because Verus actually has to fight dirty while being clever and well prepared. He can't just brute force everything by getting angry like Dresden can, and he doesn't pretend to be a saint like Dresden does. He doesn't always win, and when he does it's usually because he was very well prepared or willing to do something morally questionable.
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Aug 20, 2016 00:07
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Alex explicitly starts off as a reformed Dark Mage, refuses to ever join the Light Mages and wants to sit on the fence and run his little magic shop. No one's ever gonna let him do that because he's a precog and they're too dangerous to just ignore. He pals around with the Light Mages for a while, unofficially, and even officially, but he falls back on his Dark Mage habits whenever he or someone he cares about is threatened and he's absolutely willing to get his hands dirty if he's pressed. He's a very different sort of person to Dresden, who definitely wants to be a good guy and has limits he will not cross even when things go badly. Changes kind of shows what happens when Dresden finally crosses that line but even then he tries to contingency himself out of the picture. Didn't work, but he thought about it. Alex is interesting because he's got this past baggage that just will not let him go, and he digs himself into more and worse poo poo to get out of it every time. He doesn't want to be the bad guy anymore but he can't seem to help it, because he's made too many enemies to ever be accepted on either side now. --- Since we're on the topic of new books to read, I really enjoyed Jamie Wyman's Wild Card. It's about gods in Vegas playing poker for a girl's soul. It's pretty fun!
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Aug 20, 2016 02:12
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mistaya posted:Alex explicitly starts off as a reformed Dark Mage, refuses to ever join the Light Mages and wants to sit on the fence and run his little magic shop. No one's ever gonna let him do that because he's a precog and they're too dangerous to just ignore. He pals around with the Light Mages for a while, unofficially, and even officially, but he falls back on his Dark Mage habits whenever he or someone he cares about is threatened and he's absolutely willing to get his hands dirty if he's pressed. His magic is really sort of bad at direct conflict. He's great at dodging, but he can't attack and he can't block other people's attacks and he can't dodge forever and most of his opponents have the power levels of elemental demigods. His allies aren't particularly strong, but his enemies are. His resources are limited, and his enemies' resources are not. His position is always extremely tenuous and his choices are few. I don't think it's "falls back on his Dark Mage habits" so much as that he doesn't have any other options.
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Aug 20, 2016 07:30
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Mr Scumbag posted:Man, if you guys have hosed up re-reads of Repairman Jack for me, I'm gonna be so pissed. Tried the Reacher books, but the awesome at everything is too big a part of the books. Pike is better, far, far better.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:20
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Mr Scumbag posted:Man, if you guys have hosed up re-reads of Repairman Jack for me, I'm gonna be so pissed.
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Aug 20, 2016 15:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:We dont' talk nearly enough about Tim Powers in this thread. Last Call, people. Man, now I have to read Declare again. Oh what a burden.
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Aug 21, 2016 03:20
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I've never read Tim Powers or Last Call before, but the Kindle version is $0.99 right now so I just picked it up.
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Aug 21, 2016 03:50
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Khizan posted:I've never read Tim Powers or Last Call before, but the Kindle version is $0.99 right now so I just picked it up. Tim Powers is probably the best urban fantasy writer who we don't talk about in this thread. Mostly because he doesn't do many long-running series; all his books are one-offs, or loose trilogies at most. He was doing urban fantasy twenty years before anyone else realized it was a genre. His best novel is probably Declare, which essentially invented the fantasy - spy - thriller genre. Another one of his novels had its plot licensed for one of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, and a bunch of his stuff is closer to historical fiction with fantastic elements than it is to anything else (in that he's kinda like Guy Gavriel Kay). Last Call is tarot-card urban fantasy done right. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 04:34
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anilEhilated posted:Well, I'm reading Legacies now and he's really going out of his way to descibe just how slimy those ayyy-raybian villains are and how their culture is against everything WE stand for. I remember rolling my eyes at that, now that you mention it. Still, I really don't remember the politics being so omnipresent that it makes them difficult to read. I guess everyone has their own threshold, though. Now allow me to bitch some more about the Dresden Files: The only thing that surpasses the power-creep in this series is the protagonist-getting-his-rear end-handed-to-him-creep. It's really frustrating to me, since you have a series that has a really slow burn, and characters that don't really develop at all. You'd think that would put more emphasis on the insane amounts of power Harry comes into, but for every step up in his power, his foes get two or three steps-up and the novels end up becoming a series of rear end-kickings of the protagonist. It's been made even worse in the last few novels now that he has become the Winter Knight, finally, after talking about the insane amount of power the mantle lends to its host. Only... In most ways, he seems no loving different, since they just pile on far more dangerous enemies (that don't even seem like they should be a challenge to him half the time). FFS, he has about as much trouble fighting ghouls now as he did half a dozen novels ago. Obviously he can't just become way more powerful with no credible opposition, but you'd think he might at least change somewhat in the last few novels, but not really. He gets his rear end kicked far more often. What I'd like to see is about 50% of his self-pitying, moralising, redundant, repetitive monologue changed out for scenes where he satisfyingly kicks some rear end without breaking a sweat. I'm actually glad I only have about 60% of Skin Game left before I have to wait for new novels, cause for all of the things the Dresden Files does well, a lot of it gets really grating after a while. I don't think I've ever had such a love/hate thing going on with a series of novels.
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Aug 21, 2016 06:06
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Eh, I think people who complain about the mantle not being more powerful should remember that the last knight died falling down some stairs..
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Aug 21, 2016 08:07
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Avalerion posted:Eh, I think people who complain about the mantle not being more powerful should remember that the last knight died falling down some stairs.. Aside from that being a weird excuse for what is pretty obviously inconsistent writing, if I remember rightly, the summer knight was also elderly and not a wizard, so there were some pretty good reasons for that, anyway. In this case we have a wizard who is in the top 50 most powerful in the world who has barely gained a thing from his new position, despite talking it up for around 10 novels or so. In the end, I'm over him getting beat to poo poo constantly. It's just old now, there's no suspense to it, nothing new or exciting, and there's other ways of making someone seem like a vulnerable underdog.
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Aug 21, 2016 09:08
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Tim Powers is probably the best urban fantasy writer who we don't talk about in this thread. Mostly because he doesn't do many long-running series; all his books are one-offs, or loose trilogies at most. Thing is, when he's good, he's amazing. Declare is probably my favorite UF book ever and he's really great at weaving history and fantasy together - and unlike, say, Kay, he can make an interesting story out of it. So yeah, if you haven't read Powers, you really should, don't be disheartened by the fact he's named like a comic book character. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 09:31
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Mr Scumbag posted:Aside from that being a weird excuse for what is pretty obviously inconsistent writing, if I remember rightly, the summer knight was also elderly and not a wizard, so there were some pretty good reasons for that, anyway. In this case we have a wizard who is in the top 50 most powerful in the world who has barely gained a thing from his new position, despite talking it up for around 10 novels or so. Thing about the office of Winter Knight is that it's deliberately depowered. Both to limit how much direct power the Court can wield over the mortal world, and to keep the Knight from becoming a threat to his superiors, something we've seen they're quite cabable of. There's also not much in the setting that flat out trumps a Wizard, and Harry is a drat good one. He's clowned various Knights several times now. The reason Mab had such a huge lady-boner for getting Dresden in the first place was that he's hugely powerful in his own right and not a complete psychopath. One gets the impression that opportunities like him don't come along very often. So it's a powerup but not an unusually huge one, and the justifications for why are in there. All that said, I agree we could do with a bit less of Dresden getting beaten to a pulp, but it's also not a trope I expect to go away any time soon.
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Aug 21, 2016 12:41
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Avalerion posted:Eh, I think people who complain about the mantle not being more powerful should remember that the last knight died falling down some stairs.. To be fair, the mantles also give the knights a significant physical boost. Slate was a strong, nasty man without the mantle. Ambushing the ( aged ) Summer Knight with some Winter ice magic and launching him down a flight of stairs like a rocket luge would hurt even if he wasn't caught off guard. Mr Scumbag posted:In this case we have a wizard who is in the top 50 most powerful in the world who has barely gained a thing from his new position, despite talking it up for around 10 novels or so. Well, he did just get the power. It took the new Summer Knight a long time to grow into his mantle, and he wasn't fighting against the nature of it every step of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if Mab was screwing with him, much like the last time Harry was tempted by supernatural power. "Here's a taste. Now imagine how much easier things would be if you took just a little bit more." Mab has all the time in the world to win him over by degrees, and the game entertains her. Kind of agree on the last thing, but, eh. Harry goes through a supernatural Royal Rumble in every book. It is kind of inevitable he ends up looking like the wizarding equivalent of Mick Foley. I worry the series would drift into Jack Reacher territory if Harry wasn't getting knocked around a lot.
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Aug 21, 2016 14:30
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:
That's really more of a holdover from old school PI movies. The PI always gets the poo poo kicked out of him, barely figures it out at the last second, beats the villain by the skin of his teeth, doesn't get the girl and rarely gets paid. Even tossing in the Knights Mantle he should still be getting his rear end kicked from time to time.
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Aug 21, 2016 15:59
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Mab was screwing with him, much like the last time Harry was tempted by supernatural power. "Here's a taste. Now imagine how much easier things would be if you took just a little bit more." Mab has all the time in the world to win him over by degrees, and the game entertains her. That's a reasonable argument. I would still say that we're far enough into this series that there should be a little more payoff for the amount of power he has. Getting beatdown several times a novel only to fluke out a win with a lot of impressive effects at the end is getting a little to predictable and stale, as predictable as that can be in a fantasy series. It's getting to be a bit one-trick. NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Kind of agree on the last thing, but, eh. Harry goes through a supernatural Royal Rumble in every book. It is kind of inevitable he ends up looking like the wizarding equivalent of Mick Foley. I worry the series would drift into Jack Reacher territory if Harry wasn't getting knocked around a lot. Yeah, I'm not asking for no rear end kickings, just less. And more examples of how powerful he is. I'd love to see him go up against some things that he previously had his rear end handed to him by and completely smoke them. I think readers should be reminded of the changes he's undergone in ways other than paragraphs of monologue. Also, I feel like the series is slowly falling into the problem a lot of fiction does as it gains more and more volumes and lore: There's less levity and examples of everyday life to remind you of exactly WHAT the protagonists are fighting for. A lot of books and TV shows do that. Walking Dead is a great example. Pretty soon everything is maximum stakes and doom and gloom and you just stop caring cause you forget what "normal" is like. Anyway, I'll be up to date with Harry "monologue" Dresden in a week. Given that I like the contemporary setting and generally like the characters, what series should I read next? Edit: Also (Lasciel Spoiler?) Have I missed something or am I just stupid or did the whole Lasciel thing end abruptly in a way that pretty much guarantees she'll be back? I thought all of his headaches in the subsequent novels were for sure some kind of super wizard neuroplasticity and that it was Lasciel coming back, but it never seemed to happen and the headaches sort of quietly reduced with no payoff. Given the way Lasciel went out, I've been expecting her to return as an ally and to supercharge Harry. I'm pretty sure it's still going to happen, as it seems like circumstances are leading up to Harry having both the mantle of winter as well as Lasciel (and who knows what else) at his disposal at some point, but the way it's been written seems like Butcher didn't have this fully planned out. I liked Lash. I also liked the idea of Cowl/Nicodemous/The Black Council being the big villains. Not a fan of the nebulous "Outsiders" at all and don't see the need for their inclusion. This is all pretty old poo poo for a lot of people here, I know, but I'm curious to know what others think. Particularly the reframing of the series antagonist(s). Mr Scumbag fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 16:00
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Mr Scumbag posted:Edit: Also (Lasciel Spoiler?) Have I missed something or am I just stupid or did the whole Lasciel thing end abruptly in a way that pretty much guarantees she'll be back? I thought all of his headaches in the subsequent novels were for sure some kind of super wizard neuroplasticity and that it was Lasciel coming back, but it never seemed to happen and the headaches sort of quietly reduced with no payoff. Given the way Lasciel went out, I've been expecting her to return as an ally and to supercharge Harry. I'm pretty sure it's still going to happen, as it seems like circumstances are leading up to Harry having both the mantle of winter as well as Lasciel (and who knows what else) at his disposal at some point, but the way it's been written seems like Butcher didn't have this fully planned out. I liked Lash. I also liked the idea of Cowl/Nicodemous/The Black Council being the big villains. Not a fan of the nebulous "Outsiders" at all and don't see the need for their inclusion. Guessing that you haven't read Skin Game yet? It gets addressed.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:03
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MildShow posted:Guessing that you haven't read Skin Game yet? It gets addressed. I'm 40% in. This makes me a little more excited to keep reading.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:08
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MildShow posted:Guessing that you haven't read Skin Game yet? It gets addressed. About that, *late Skin Games spoilers* I really hated how Lasch was demoted to just a villian. With how we last saw her before Skin Games we had a Denarian that actually did something really cool. I understand it was because she was in Harry's head for so long, I just wish Jim had done something else with her.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:15
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A. Beaverhausen posted:About that, *late Skin Games spoilers* I really hated how Lasch was demoted to just a villian. With how we last saw her before Skin Games we had a Denarian that actually did something really cool. I understand it was because she was in Harry's head for so long, I just wish Jim had done something else with her. There really wasn't any way that Lasciel's coin-self could be influenced by the shadow-self that rode in Harry's head, unfortunately. He kinda wrote himself into a corner, there, if you were expecting or desiring something else.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:37
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