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They added an unkitted thief??? 
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Aug 20, 2016 16:56
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Skwirl posted:honestly a pure thief isn't that useful. I think that the makers knew that; it was hardly an unknown in tapletop 2nd edition D&D either. The only thing that a single-class thief had going for it was a very fast rate of level growth to offset being rubbish. In BG2, there are three thieves (not counting bards), two of which are dual-class (Nalia & Imoen) and one multi-class, my mate Jan. Jan is the only one where being a Thief seems to be integral to his function in the game. For the ladies, it's more of a few skills tacked on to being a mage, a much better class that can, in many cases, do thief-like functions. If you go back to BG1, you have many more options. Whether they are appealing or not is another story. Imoen was so tailor-made to be dual-classed to a mage that they went and did that in BG2 by default. There are three single-class thieves besides Imoen (Alora, Safana and Skie), none of which seem to be terribly popular party companions most times. Coran seems very popular but is a dual-class Fighter/Thief who is probably the second best archer in the game (thanks mostly to being part fighter) behind Kivan in a game where archers dominate. Montaron is also a F/T but generally is only used in the very early game until you can find someone better, and Tiax is a multiclass combination that has about as much synergy as being an aspiring olympic swimmer who is also made entirely out of lead. To this day I wish that there was a mod that let you dual- and/or multi-class thief and druid. All things considered, I think that especially for the sequel the devs realised that pure thieves are pants and realised they work best as multi-role characters. I think that Ms. Vampire was just thrown in to appease a small, vocal group of players and suffers due to system mechanics.
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Aug 20, 2016 17:06
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Chomp8645 posted:They added an unkitted thief??? That they did. They gave her a bunch of bullshit special snowflake bonuses to go on top of it, and she's STILL one of the worst NPCs.
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Aug 20, 2016 17:06
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Chomp8645 posted:They added an unkitted thief??? Hexxat. She's got ridiculous stats and is at least nominally interesting as a character, being a vampire (I haven't actually encountered her in-game though), but probably should've been as assassin or shadowdancer. On the subject of EE NPCs, Rasaad's content makes me think they were trying to add a stronghold for Monks rather than cludging them into De'Arnise Keep and ran out of time or something. JustJeff88 posted:All things considered, I think that especially for the sequel the devs realised that pure thieves are pants and realised they work best as multi-role characters. I think that Ms. Vampire was just thrown in to appease a small, vocal group of players and suffers due to system mechanics. Yoshimo was originally supposed to be a permanent companion until Imoen's death was written out, but there's nothing he can do that Jan can't. Kavak fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 17:07
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I gotta wonder why they thought non-kit Thief was the best choice for her, her bonuses are so situational as to be near worthless anyway. The one time I used her I Shadowkeepered her into an Assassin and she was still probably the weakest member of my party in combat (granted I was using mostly the powerful NPCs that run, but still). It's like Rasaad in BG1 level of shittiness except at least there's no easy fix for him, without making him overpowered in BG2 and on.
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Aug 20, 2016 17:11
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Mzbundifund posted:That they did. They gave her a bunch of bullshit special snowflake bonuses to go on top of it, and she's STILL one of the worst NPCs. She does fill a major gap in so far as there are no evil thieves pre-EE.
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Aug 20, 2016 18:47
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For pure power Edwin is the best caster in the game imo, mostly because of his ridiculous amulet. Jan is great but the dual class means he wont get nearly as many spells as Edwin, plus his specialisation means you don't get ADHW which is like the bread and butter of mages for a lot of the game.
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Aug 21, 2016 00:42
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Would be nice if Iron Skins and Insect Swarm weren't competing for for the entirely too few level 5 slots Jaheira gets. Uhh but that's all you want at level 5 anyway, if you get more slots you just memorize more insect swarms anyways. ^^^^:Edwin's amulet is just godlike, no other caster approaches that. Really the only other caster type that is even close would be a sorcerer, but they don't even come close either. Too bad there is not a mod to put Baeloth into BG2, he'd be a good alternative to Edwin. Washout fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 02:28
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fong posted:For pure power Edwin is the best caster in the game imo, mostly because of his ridiculous amulet. Jan is great but the dual class means he wont get nearly as many spells as Edwin, plus his specialisation means you don't get ADHW which is like the bread and butter of mages for a lot of the game. I agree. I would never have Jan be my primary arcane caster, but I feel that you do need one thief and, since single-class thieves are shite, you can take him along and have a very funny companion who can be your thief, lay traps, Use Any Item (eventually), profit from a second class offering perfect synergy with his thief levels and add quite a lot as a secondary arcane caster even if he lacks great spells like Skull Trap, Horrid Wilting, and Animate Dead. Kind of a small price to pay, I feel. Jan is the one NPC I wouldn't want to be without, honestly, but granted I find him hilariously funny and some don't.
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Aug 21, 2016 02:42
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Yeah OTOH I almost never use him. Nalia has enough lock picking and find traps for the early game, and Imeon has enough for the end.
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Aug 21, 2016 05:50
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Nalia is sufficient if you make use of the rings of lockpick and detect trap but she only has 1 available ring slot and swapping them constantly gets annoying.
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Aug 21, 2016 05:54
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Washout posted:Uhh but that's all you want at level 5 anyway, if you get more slots you just memorize more insect swarms anyways. Being a multiclass druid, and a frontliner, Jaheira doesn't really get enough slots for more than just Ironskins until late ToB. Unless you like resting after every other fight.
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Aug 21, 2016 07:25
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There's no penalty for resting often in BG2, and the game seems to assume you will do so given how long some quests have you wait between events.
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Aug 21, 2016 07:31
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Being a multiclass druid, and a frontliner, Jaheira doesn't really get enough slots for more than just Ironskins until late ToB. Unless you like resting after every other fight. LMAO if you aren't hitting epic levels halfway through Underdark.
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Aug 21, 2016 08:13
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If we're talking about pure power at high levels with good items I still think a sorc will top Edwin in terms of flexibility/power in big fights - mostly as a result of HLAs taking up level 9 spell slots for sorc, meaning that with project image spam you'll be able to do a lot more with those slots in the same fight vs Edwin who'll be stuck with the spells you've chosen already (level 7 gets freed up for mordy swords too as you don't have to stack project image). Wild Mage would top him too once you can get consistent 80+ rolls.
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Aug 21, 2016 10:47
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Thinking of starting from BG1 again as a sorcerer. How do I progress my spells and stay relevant through all three games? I feel like the flexibility of a Wiz(z)ard would make it easier to choose the right spells for the right time and not lock yourself into being shite.
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Aug 21, 2016 11:24
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Suspicious posted:There's no penalty for resting often in BG2, and the game seems to assume you will do so given how long some quests have you wait between events. Yeah but it's tedious and it feels cheaty to me. I get why it's in, it makes sense to me why it's in, but I'll avoid as much as possible regardless. Skwirl posted:LMAO if you aren't hitting epic levels halfway through Underdark. Sorry for not Watcher's Keep in Chapter 2 and/or using a full party? Still, I don't consider having enough castings of Ironskins until I get the 4th level 5 slot at level 15, which, for a multiclass druid, is 6 million xp, which is late ToB. It gets even tighter if you're hurting for divine casters and don't have enough Chaotic Commands to go around. That will trump even ironskins.
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Aug 21, 2016 16:45
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I just spent the last irl fortnight killing mud golems in the cave to reach level 7. The necromancer at the Friendly Arm Inn stands no chance against me now.
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Aug 21, 2016 16:49
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Sounds to me like you've already lost.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:22
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Nuclear War posted:Thinking of starting from BG1 again as a sorcerer. How do I progress my spells and stay relevant through all three games? I feel like the flexibility of a Wiz(z)ard would make it easier to choose the right spells for the right time and not lock yourself into being shite. Most of the spells you'd want to choose as a Sorc will be relevant all the way to the end. The one exception I can even think of would be sleep which is an awesome spell early but not so useful in bg2. But you'll still want it because of how good it is in bg1.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:08
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Ginette Reno posted:Most of the spells you'd want to choose as a Sorc will be relevant all the way to the end. The one exception I can even think of would be sleep which is an awesome spell early but not so useful in bg2. But you'll still want it because of how good it is in bg1. Do I do damage spells or utility? I rarely play casters except to bring Aeire and just let her demolish everything along with Edwin
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Aug 21, 2016 18:12
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Nuclear War posted:Do I do damage spells or utility? I rarely play casters except to bring Aeire and just let her demolish everything along with Edwin Both? Damage spells are good but there are also some non damage spells that are great that you will want. Sleep (1), Mirror Image(2), Slow (3), Haste (3), Stoneskin(4), Breach(5) are all for example non damaging spells that you will want to take anyways because of how useful they are either for your own protection or for disabling the enemy.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:15
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Fair enough, I guess I'm just worried about gimping myself. Time to reroll stats compulsively!
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Aug 21, 2016 18:17
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Nuclear War posted:Fair enough, I guess I'm just worried about gimping myself. Time to reroll stats compulsively! All you need as a Sorc is 16 con for the maximum hit point bonus, 18 wisdom if you want to use the Wish spells effectively, and 18 dex so you can hit things better with missile weapons. Strength doesn't matter since you don't melee, Int doesn't matter since it doesn't affect Sorc spells/level and you don't ever have to scribe scrolls, and Charisma doesn't matter because it also doesn't affect your spells/level. It can be nice to have high CHA for buying prices at merchants though. If I'm rolling a Sorc, I'd target this: Str: 10 Dex: 18 Con: 16 Int: 10 Wis: 18 Cha: 18 Int and Str don't matter much but you don't want to dump str as then it's hard to carry poo poo and you don't want to dump Int as Mindflayers drain your int with their attacks and that would make them pretty lethal to you.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:22
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The first time that I played BG2 I played a sorcerer, but disliking the limited spell choices I would use Shadowkeeper to edit in a new spell every time I would find a scroll, then edit the scroll out of my inventory. I freely admit that this is very overpowered, but I was quite young and terrible and I still died constantly. I think that I beat the black dragon using Time Stop and Prismatic Spray and then lost my saves to a hard drive crash.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:55
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Nuclear War posted:Thinking of starting from BG1 again as a sorcerer. How do I progress my spells and stay relevant through all three games? I feel like the flexibility of a Wiz(z)ard would make it easier to choose the right spells for the right time and not lock yourself into being shite. Just don't take anything superfluous, like you don't need mage armor since shield is better and you have more casts. But basically the most important spell pick at each level is your first one. So just be extra careful with that one. https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/22516/sorcerer-spells-what-to-pick Washout fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 21:21
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I usually start my sorc with 14 int so by Watcher's Keep I have 16 to use the tome of golems, and I like high strength for bonus sling damage and the convenience of a greater weight capacity. High charisma is useful for shopping but it doesn't have to be on your main character, and I never find myself using the wish spell.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:25
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Suspicious posted:I usually start my sorc with 14 int so by Watcher's Keep I have 16 to use the tome of golems, and I like high strength for bonus sling damage and the convenience of a greater weight capacity. High charisma is useful for shopping but it doesn't have to be on your main character, and I never find myself using the wish spell. Yeah those summons are kinda nice. CHA you can easily dump and use the Ring of Human Influence for though that won't help you in Bg1 but in bg1 it's easy enough to just switch Imoen or whoever to party leader for when you want to buy things.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:49
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if they ever make a BG3 in the fashion of siege of dragonspear I want them to be able to import ToB characters and keep it going towards even more unreasonable power levels. Be a level 65 sorcerer firing galaxies gurran lagann-style at other demigods. I know they've mentioned making a 3 and having it be a side story somewhere but I can dream
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Aug 22, 2016 02:23
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Mortimer posted:if they ever make a BG3 in the fashion of siege of dragonspear I want them to be able to import ToB characters and keep it going towards even more unreasonable power levels. Be a level 65 sorcerer firing galaxies gurran lagann-style at other demigods. That's already kinda the plot of Mask of the Betrayer.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:35
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Not a lot of Dragonspear chat going on. What's the goonsensus on it? To me, the EE character's writing and in particular the wannabe-funny dialog options for CHARNAME stick out like a sore thumb as extras tacked on instead of seamlessly fitting into the world. I wouldn't want an entire game of immersion-breaking 3-line long 'humorous' chat options that are not funny.
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Aug 22, 2016 07:56
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Except it's not an entire game of immersion breaking 3-line dialogue options. Those options are few and far between. And the original games' dialogue frequently had kooky or inappropriate dialogue responses at times.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:17
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Hah, OK. I think all the new content has ridiculous dialogue options, and the original game only occasionally had inappropriate responses. With EE content it seems they took the chance at every single conversation. Dragonspear... yes/no?
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Aug 22, 2016 10:26
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BadAstronaut posted:Hah, OK. I think all the new content has ridiculous dialogue options, and the original game only occasionally had inappropriate responses. With EE content it seems they took the chance at every single conversation. Dragonspear is fine. The only truly bad thing in it was Minsc's line. edit: Oh, and some of the weird covetous lecher responses CHARNAME can give to Jaheira when doing party rearranging. Those're really out of place. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 10:37
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Milky Moor posted:Dragonspear is fine. The only truly bad thing in it was Minsc's line. Minsc's line was fine. Both BG1 and BG2 have plenty of pop culture references and jokes, including others in NPC responses. The only difference is that a bunch of whiny men couldn't deal with a video game making fun of their stupid ideas.
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Aug 22, 2016 11:17
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^ Avatar and custom title are appropriate.
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Aug 22, 2016 11:19
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Arivia posted:Minsc's line was fine. Both BG1 and BG2 have plenty of pop culture references and jokes, including others in NPC responses. The only difference is that a bunch of whiny men couldn't deal with a video game making fun of their stupid ideas. Beamdog's Actual CEO posted:Minsc – Minsc has a line which generated controversy. Looking back on the line, we agree with the feedback from our community, it has nothing to do with his character and we will be removing the line.
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Aug 22, 2016 11:23
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I agree with Arivia. Removing Minsc's line was a sensible retraction in the face of the wider criticism (not a hill worth dying on, unlike the trans character) but it was not originally out of place in the series and was an entirely appropriate line for his character.
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Aug 22, 2016 11:29
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ineptmule posted:I agree with Arivia. Removing Minsc's line was a sensible retraction in the face of the wider criticism (not a hill worth dying on, unlike the trans character) but it was not originally out of place in the series and an entirely appropriate line for his character. Then give it to Edwin. So, y'know, that whole shitpile movement is associated with someone where it might actually seem like a clever reference.
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Aug 22, 2016 11:31
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Milky Moor posted:Then give it to Edwin. So, y'know, that whole shitpile movement is associated with someone where it might actually seem like a clever reference. They're all clever asides. There's no association between Jaheira and mouse pointers, but that's one of the most hilarious things in the entire trilogy.
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Aug 22, 2016 11:32
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