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Kashuno posted:Why pick Blitz who can screw with one target when you can pick Alistar who can get 5man knockups and take a beating with ult or Braum who deal with so many popular picks and also do the CC thing? Because he's probably the best pick comp support in the game. He's relatively safe while constantly threatening. Can single-handedly win a game in one pull. Totally destroys immobile ADCs like Jhin and Ashe who are two of the main meta picks. It's another thing like ranged support quips yesterday. Commentators seem to have a really narrow view of what pro support players should be playing (while never broaching the topic on things like the really narrow meta of picks for Top/Jungle/ADC right now) and I think the pool of viable competitive support champions is maybe as high as it has ever been.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:53
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Haru is bad.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:56
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Libertine posted:Because he's probably the best pick comp support in the game. He's relatively safe while constantly threatening. Can single-handedly win a game in one pull. Totally destroys immobile ADCs like Jhin and Ashe who are two of the main meta picks. God i wish there was a bigger jungle pool right now. Reksai/Gragas/Elise and maybe Nidalee although I never see her even when she isn't banned anymore. Kindred really is not good these days, even though score had a pretty good game on her. Make a new jungler damnit. e; if Skarl's courage was restored by hitting monsters Kled would be a top tier jungler.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:01
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One of the teams should just try banning Elise/Gragas/Rek'Sai on one side to see how a series plays out. And then the other team can ban Jhin/Ashe/Sivir.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:03
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Libertine posted:One of the teams should just try banning Elise/Gragas/Rek'Sai on one side to see how a series plays out. And then the other team can ban Jhin/Ashe/Sivir. I loved seeing MF vs Twitch when the ADC pool was banned out
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Aug 22, 2016 14:04
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There are a ton of potential jungle picks that are hovering just out of the meta. One to remember is Hecarim, which is fairly common. Some more: Rumble, J4, Lee, even Twitch could conceivably see play if the holy trinity were banned.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:07
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Ah you see no it's actually just Kindred and Hecarim. Maybe next season when we have 10 bans
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Aug 22, 2016 14:08
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Sexpansion posted:Haru is bad.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:09
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Why the gently caress was CJ holding the Baron HP for like 10 seconds? Were they just intentionally setting up Flawless for a steal? It didn't make any sense why they stopped attacking it. They should have just burst it down and then Graves would have had no chance to come over the wall.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:10
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Jungle meta and top meta are always pretty tiny because of how Riot balances. If they see a champion that's too strong they give it the triple-tap nerf until they're too weak to even play in Solo Queue, and usually there's only one or two strong jungle/top lane items that makes playing anything else irrelevant. See: The Cinderhulk meta in which the item was so powerful that even top laners were taking smite with it. Riot didn't like the idea of this, so they nerfed red smite, cinderhulk, then Sejuani/Shyvana and neither have been used regularly since. GENERALLY top/jungle balancing is done by making everything else less powerful throughout the season. Most champions that end up in that meta again are only there because things have been brought back down to their level (EX: if they nerf the strongest junglers right now, you will probably see Nidalee, Graves, and Kindred show priority again). Usually Riot does something really stupid with an item in the pre-season patch or role updates that changes the meta for a while until they decide to nerf those items/characters too. Generally they don't look at top/junglers and say "These champions are too weak and we'd like to buff them up". When they do it's not even enough to make them competitive half the time
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Aug 22, 2016 14:12
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CJ is fortunate that SBENU decided they didn't need a single tanky member of their team this game like a Bronze ranked game draft. It's made getting late game kills totally trivial for CJ.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:12
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Libertine posted:CJ is fortunate that SBENU decided they didn't need a single tanky member of their team this game like a Bronze ranked game draft. It's made getting late game kills totally trivial for CJ. Kramer playing like some kind of aggressive Uzi-esque god isn't hurting them either.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:14
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SBENU's tankiest member at 46 minutes is a 2-item Braum. This team is loving terrible.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:16
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I went to make a post about how I felt top lane was pretty diverse right now, but then could only come up with Shen, Gnar, GP, and Ekko. Maybe Kennen now that he's enabled again?
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Aug 22, 2016 14:18
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Someone told me the philosophy behind OP champions in DOTA2 was "Git good" and people would just learn to play counters to those champions and the meta shifts around organically rather than in LoL where everyone sits around and abuses it/waits for it to be nerfed. I wouldn't mind that  I'm always afraid of stale meta by World's. Last year was pretty bad, with most of the banned/picked champions only being strong for that patch cycle which made Mordekaiser a huge priority the month World's took place with no teams having much practice on him and no teams playing him since because it was nerfed. Top lane was GP or Fiora almost exclusively
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Aug 22, 2016 14:24
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Make it 10 bans, but each team picks 2 at the start of the series that stay throughout.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:25
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i really hope they do the assassin patch before worlds so i don't have to watch any more perkz lissandra
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Aug 22, 2016 14:26
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Lovechop posted:i really hope they do the assassin patch before worlds so i don't have to watch any more perkz lissandra
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Aug 22, 2016 14:28
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RealFoxy posted:It's not coming until pre-season  ok we're doomed
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Aug 22, 2016 14:29
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Lovechop posted:
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Aug 22, 2016 14:36
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They're also slapping Jhin down hard, so there will only be Sivir and Ashe for all of worlds
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Aug 22, 2016 14:41
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Kashuno posted:They're also slapping Jhin down hard, so there will only be Sivir and Ashe for all of worlds 
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Aug 22, 2016 14:43
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Why nerf jhin? He's fun to play and watch, unique in how he plays, and cool.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:48
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Holy poo poo impact played really well in that immortals series.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:58
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Sexpansion posted:Holy poo poo impact played really well in that immortals series.
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Aug 22, 2016 15:05
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RealFoxy posted:Someone told me the philosophy behind OP champions in DOTA2 was "Git good" and people would just learn to play counters to those champions and the meta shifts around organically rather than in LoL where everyone sits around and abuses it/waits for it to be nerfed. I wouldn't mind that I genuinely wonder if it's possible for Riot to have a fairly diverse meta with most champions being picked/banned. Watching the dota 2 international reminded me that a lot of dota2 heroes can do wacky and crazy things and so you can build a lot of unique teams. League doesn't have as many wacky and crazy things (which doesn't make it better or worse for that reason) so it seems like there's not as much room for lots of champions to flourish independently of each other. If people think there can be I would be interested to hear how Riot could get there.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:05
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I don't even know if there's that many unique team comps at any given time in League. There's been a lot of terrain comps recently because Talliyah is so strong, but those will probably go away when Riot nerfs her. Other comps I can think of are the "Protect the hyper carry" comps that aren't prevalent anymore because Riot basically cut those down with the ADC update; the Submarine Shen comp with Eve/Twitch that don't show up that often because Eve/Twitch aren't strong meta champs right now; "Wombo Combo" comps using champions like Zac/Oriana that rely on really good teamfighting combos because Burst is down this meta + Most champions have really high mobility. It seems like teams are so coordinated these days that split-comps are never played anymore (IE: The Vlad/Jax splitting forever) but Gangplank pretty much fills that roll now without even giving anything up for it.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:10
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tbh while Dota has a lot of viable strategies I don't find most of them very interesting There's tradeoffs to the different balance approaches. If there's anything wrong with League I don't think it's because their philosophy is so flawed, it's just that Riot makes baffling decisions sometimes (probably because they have way too many chefs for the one kitchen, whereas Icefrog has a single vision for his game).
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Aug 22, 2016 16:28
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Redmark posted:There's tradeoffs to the different balance approaches. If there's anything wrong with League I don't think it's because their philosophy is so flawed, it's just that Riot makes baffling decisions sometimes (probably because they have way too many chefs for the one kitchen, whereas Icefrog has a single vision for his game). I think Riot overdoes balancing but I'll take the somewhat reliable change in metas over one new hero every 9 months.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:37
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I think the meta is never really discovered. Riot patches too often for a true meta to develop, so the meta that ends up developing is always around the latest buffs/nerfs because that is the most consistent aspect in LoL. Edit: "True meta" meaning players have a fairly complete view of champion power and match ups. This is pretty much completely impossible to have due to constant changes to champions, items, masteries, and the objectives on the map. Edit 2: I think the other problem is that Riot decided around S4/S5 that their design philosophy for the game will be counterplay, definite champion strengths and weaknesses, and champion play style flavor. Then Riot looked back and said "Oh poo poo, there are a lot of champions that don't fit this design philosophy." Safety Scissors fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 16:47
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while riot does patch a lot a large majority of patches dont really add much of substance to competitive play since a lot of the buffs and nerfs are basically just for show and dont really have any meaningful effect on the game and you can pretty clearly watch teams focus in on the meta of the patch when a large meta game change happens. the smaller champion changes adjust the tiers of a few picks but the way you play and the champions that adhere to that playstyle remain pretty consistent as the patch wears on. implementing snake draft in league would fix most of their problems with champion diversity. league has historically allowed for teams to rehearse their pick and ban because you're offered very little in ways to react to the enemy team and even if you try to pick counters to their comp or whatever the fact that you still play 1v1 lanes means a lovely team can't beat a good team through drafting alone most of the time. too many teams are allowed to get away with awful drafts because they're never forced to learn while in dota a team with poor drafts will find it almost impossible to win games. just playing with 2 ban 2 pick 3 ban 3 pick like old captain's mode would mean a team that doesn't early pick their reksai/gragas, for instance, is quickly going to find themselves playing zac or graves jungles while the other team that didn't pick the gnar/gangplank early in the draft is forced into picking some nonsense poo poo like kayle or jayce or whatever their idiot import spammed to get rank 1 on the korean server. i dont have much to add to the dota vs league game but league is a much more fun game to play casually while dota is much more fun to play seriously. when riot does poo poo like "oh we nerfed irelia, buffed gnar, and forced everyone to matchup lanes for the first 5min" all at once and gnar turns into the most predictable top pick because his counters are poo poo, hes buff, and teams are forced to play into his most advantageous playstyle its super frustrating to watch and if i was trying to play league seriously things like that would really kill my desire to compete at all. meanwhile in dota if you're just playing for fun the one patch you get every 6 months that adjusts a bunch of poo poo you could never care about because you're 2k and have a wife, child and a full time job doesn't really matter to you because omniknight still has a 61% winrate and every game is a bunch of peruvian children calling you a human being.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:17
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The problem is that Riot balances champions around solo queue, while the Valve mostly cares about pro play. It's impossible for most champions to be equally good in both professional and amateur play, thus the balance in professional play suffers.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:24
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Smol posted:The problem is that Riot balances champions around solo queue, while the Valve mostly cares about pro play. It's impossible for most champions to be equally good in both professional and amateur play, thus the balance in professional play suffers. Is this really true, though? It seems like Riot balances champions specifically for competitive play all the time.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:35
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i dont think the two have to be mutually exclusive, just that champions with a low skill cap cannot be balanced for both. i think you can probably make a list of the champs that really stomp the poo poo out of bronze like shyvanna, garen, xin, whatever and just leave them unplayable outside of bronze (where they can sit at 50%) while the gnars and the azirs of the world get the lion's share of the attention. i think theres a massive gap between some of the harder to play champions and the easier ones that you really can't try to balance it, it hardly even feels like warwick and yasuo are from the same game. the problem is that your average gold 4 jinx main is used to riot listening to their whining on reddit and when her champion.gg number is below 48 in plat+ and isn't getting picked in LCS they're gonna demand the issue get fixed and then a few weeks laters the rest of the player base is going to demand she get removed from the game again because shes attack moving down mid and getting a penta in their silver tier matches now.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:51
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RealFoxy posted:Jungle meta and top meta are always pretty tiny because of how Riot balances. If they see a champion that's too strong they give it the triple-tap nerf until they're too weak to even play in Solo Queue, and usually there's only one or two strong jungle/top lane items that makes playing anything else irrelevant. sejuani and shyvana thankfully aren't totally busted for solo queue anymore, but, i doubt you'll see them in competitive because there are way too many fast clearing junglers (dq's sejuani) or champions that are useful lategame (dq's shyvana) i agree with your balance opinions, shame you didn't have any input for their balance team
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Aug 22, 2016 17:52
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Libertine posted:One of the teams should just try banning Elise/Gragas/Rek'Sai on one side to see how a series plays out. And then the other team can ban Jhin/Ashe/Sivir. This is how Score ended up playing Kindred Kashuno posted:I went to make a post about how I felt top lane was pretty diverse right now, but then could only come up with Shen, Gnar, GP, and Ekko. Maybe Kennen now that he's enabled again? Well Renekton got picked in the LPL promotion tournament and top lane malzahar and taliyahSexpansion posted:Is this really true, though? It seems like Riot balances champions specifically for competitive play all the time. there is zero chance that the upcoming Rek'sai nerfs have anything to do with solo queue, its a 100% competitive balancing thing. so its not true, no.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:53
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Riots changes are like 80% for comp play at this point, what people mean when they say riot balances for solo q and dota 2 balances for comp is that dota 2 has 7 second stuns.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:56
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Most of the jungle nerfs this season were aimed specifically at professionals, or at least people who are Diamond+. There were people in low elo playing Kindred and Nidalee but players were hardly stomping with them because of the mechanics they demanded. I think Gragas and Rek'Sai are the only current Pro-Meta junglers that doesn't require a whole lot of kiting mechanics to do a fast clear, but I barely see people playing them in low elo because they're not flashy or solo-carry enough VV There's also a lot of champions that stomp solo queue that are never/rarely played competitively because they're so easy to counter with a coordinated team, which is why you never see Kayle or Skarner winning games. For a while, there were a lot of champions being picked sub-optimally in competitive simply because there weren't many other champions that were able to be put into certain comps or played well. I think after a ton of Kalista nerfs she was still played for a while for utility until the Ashe/Sivir picks started to come in more often and she couldn't compete anymore. I really think there's a lot of champions that could be balanced specifically for competitive and largely ignored by solo queue, people are still playing stuff like Zed or Yasuo despite really not being that strong and like I mentioned before, I hardly ever see anyone below Platinum playing Gragas or Rek'Sai
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Aug 22, 2016 18:09
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOONSdgXHgY Interesting look at IMT vs C9 Game 5 draft by everyones favorite ex coach Kubz! This video is actually pretty good and I like the way Kubz frames the draft and how to prioritize champions. If you want a TL;DR, one of his suggestions for how IMT could have unfucked their draft was to trick C9 into blind picking Rek'Sai (IMT 2nd rotations it, Meteos picks Gragas next rotation) because it represented a 'Fake OP pick' in the series meta which didn't have that big an impact in game and Reignover could have picked Elise into it (RO won both elise vs Reksai games in the series).
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Aug 22, 2016 18:23
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balancing for low elo solo queue is a bad idea because the players there will always play their champions in the least efficient or reasonable manner possible. you can never tell who will win based on comp because all the builds, runes, and skill orders are stupidly bad
How Rude fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 18:40
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