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Toxxupation posted:They really haven't given up on Captain America. I mean, Spencer's writing both books and the arc for Sam Wilson is how everyone wants him to give back the shield, to the point where USAgent tracked him down and is gonna beat the poo poo out of him for it. The whole point of the Sam Wilson book is that he's really actually Captain America because they keep on threatening to take the title away from him. So it's the 24/7 rules of the old Hardcore Title? But the title is the shield.
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Aug 22, 2016 18:55
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PaybackJack posted:They could have called her Iron Woman. It doesn't come off any worse than Wonder Woman does and is literally the correct way for her to take the mantle of Iron Man. Not really, because the "X-Woman" characters operate concurrently to and often separate from the basis hero. Superwoman is fighting crime in Metropolis at the same time there's Superman on the Justice League, Batwoman's pretty much always done her own thing while someone was in the cowl, Spider-Woman (and Spider-Girl) were always off doing their own stuff (in the former's case, usually completely separate from Spider-Man) while he was web-slinging, etc. This is a character taking over the mantle, where there is no Tony Stark running around (or at least he's not in the armor), and this is Bendis, the guy writing the main book, writing her as the main character of the story. Calling her Iron Woman (on top of it being a terrible name) calls to mind those other instances, when she's exactly akin to current Thor in that she's the main dude, she's not hero-adjacent or hero-tangential. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 18:56
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PaybackJack posted:I think there's an arguement that deaging Steve and giving him back a Shield and going "There can be TWO Captain Americas!" undercuts his legitimacy quite a bit. Yeah you can argue he's still on the more premiere Avenger team and what not, but giving Steve the same gimmick is always going to put Sam as the #2 guy. It would have been better if Steve had gone back to being Steve Rogers: Super Soldier, and gotten his best costume and sweet energy shield back. Yeah, see, I just don't buy that because Steve's a Literal Nazi right now. In wrestling terms, Sam Wilson couldn't be put more over if Marvel tried. He's on the main Avengers, has the actual shield (which is, outside of Superman's S and arguably Batman's bat, the most famous iconography in comics history), and in contrast to Steve Hailing Hydra all over the place Spencer (who, again, is writing both books) is placing the de-legitmacy argument front and center. It's a book that's ensuring that Sam's Real Captain America by incorporating arguments that he isn't into its narrative, which only works narratively if it's written from the perspective of "but he's actually Captain America". Marvel seems to be aware of the potential pitfalls of going "whelp, time to give back the shield Sam, you've Solved Racism Via Punching" because they've doubled- and tripled-down on storylines of how Captain Sam is being perceived, so if they quietly revert to status quo it'll make them look super foolish. They still might do that, but at this point the storyline for Sam is at a point where if they do so they're gonna catch a lot of loving poo poo for it from the comics press, and they're all-in on raising Sam's status quo as Captain America.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:03
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Toxxupation posted:Not really, because the "X-Woman" characters operate concurrently to and often separate from the basis hero. Superwoman is fighting crime in Metropolis at the same time there's Superman on the Justice League, Batwoman's pretty much always done her own thing while someone was in the cowl, Spider-Woman (and Spider-Girl) were always off doing their own stuff (in the former's case, usually completely separate from Spider-Man) while he was web-slinging, etc. Maybe I wasn't being clear, but I wasn't suggesting they call her Iron Woman and was basically saying everything you just said. Toxxupation posted:Yeah, see, I just don't buy that because Steve's a Literal Nazi right now. In wrestling terms, Sam Wilson couldn't be put more over if Marvel tried. He's on the main Avengers, has the actual shield (which is, outside of Superman's S and arguably Batman's bat, the most famous iconography in comics history), and in contrast to Steve Hailing Hydra all over the place Spencer (who, again, is writing both books) is placing the de-legitmacy argument front and center. It's a book that's ensuring that Sam's Real Captain America by incorporating arguments that he isn't into its narrative, which only works narratively if it's written from the perspective of "but he's actually Captain America". It's cool that you think they're doing a good job with "Captain Sam" but I don't get that opinion from a lot of other people. Sure, a lot of them don't read the books, but this is a situation where the perception is going to create the reality. If people in general don't feel like Sam is anything more than a placeholder and bringing Captain America back, even if the plan was to turn him into a Nazi, that's still the story about THE Captain America. The fact that the mainstream media didn't even really mention that there was another Captain America while Steve was being turned into a Nazi should tell you how much mainstream penetration that idea has gotten. I'm not against you on this. I think Marvel is definitely trying a lot of different tactics in trying to figure out how to rebrand their iconic characters, and ultimately I think we need to just wait and see how it plays out in the long run.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:15
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I'm willing to bet an insanely large amount of money that the only reason Hydra Cap blew up into a thing (that, it must be noted, quickly blew over because nobody reads comics any more) was because 1) news stories could summarize the events of Captain America: Steve Rogers 1 with a single image that communicated exactly what happened that itself became memetic and 2) Chris Evans tweeted about it. I'm not joking, I really don't think it had anything to do with Steve Rogers being the "real" Captain America or whatever for comics fans because comics fans are a minority of consumers, it was a story that told itself via a single image helped along by a huge movie star commenting on it. Marvel seems to be aware that the audience for comics is small, so are diversifying their lines moving forward (from Thor to Ms Marvel to Nova to Ultimate End saving Miles and basically nobody else to Sam Wilson and on and on, I could keep going for a while) because all they need is one Kamala Khan to break big in the way that she did, over DC approaching the shrinking comics base by desperately trying to appeal to what worked in the past. And, to be clear, I'm not complaining about DC's approach, I think Rebirth has been by-and-large successful, but it's very much been a comics initiative centered around replicating DC's glory days (especially 90s Superman stuff) when all the heroes were white over Marvel's inclusivity approach.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:29
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It was a story because a major character did something major. Sam is a gimmick that Marvel had been doing since the 80s and will do for the foreseeable future.This isn't hard.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:39
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Ironheart is a great name and approximately a million times better than either Iron Woman or Iron Maiden.
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Aug 22, 2016 20:57
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X-O posted:Ironheart is a great name and approximately a million times better than either Iron Woman or Iron Maiden. In all honesty, it sounds like one of those "welp all the good superhero names are taken, what sounds close enough?" names, to me. It also makes her sound like a Thatcher-themed legacy of this guy:  But if a mediocre name is the worst we have to deal with, she'll be great.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:05
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Blind Azathoth posted:Anyway, they should've just called her She-Iron Man. Lady Iron-Man, unless we're not learning the lessons of the trailblazer that was Lady Stilt-Man.  I like Ironheart, and I just hope RiRi gets a decent shot to make it, which Marvel are usually pretty good at, being fair (and Bendis writing her doesn't hurt in terms of potential impact). This is an interesting case when you consider that Odinson is back properly post-SW, Steve's back as Captain America & Old Man Logan is running around etc alongside the legacy heroes (all back for various reasons, but obviously there is a concern mentioned previously that the more diverse legacy characters frequently have a 'classic' counterpart and are overshadowed), but for RiRi there's Dr. Doom in the armour as Iron Man, which is obviously still a significant shift, but once again putting a more 'established' (in a non Iron Man sense) character in the mantle in a way that you could consider them primary, though RiRi is getting the headlines because she's a wonderful STEAM example. So yeah, it's an interesting case to think about in terms of Marvel's continuing efforts for greater diversity and finding new comics audiences. Finally, if she was LGBTQ then that would be a big thing to reveal in an issue as a surprise on top of all this, but that's a different kettle of fish regarding Marvel's previous track record of marketing LGBTQ characters so I'll stop there since I don't want to derail beyond positing that RiRi will almost certainly be a fascinating character in how she fares.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:14
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I think I may have a problem because I like FeMale WAYYY too much for Riri. Although the MRAs and Nice Guys have made that word so distasteful lately.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:23
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I think the problem with Ironheart is it does not do a good job of selling me or anyone on this being the new Iron Man. The same reason they were so adamant on saying the new Thor is The Thor seems to just not apply when its inconvenient.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:24
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It doesn't have to, that's what the drawing of her in an Iron Man suit will be for.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:28
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No, it kind of has to, for the same reason all the other marvel legacy characters are using the same name. You make it clear that this isn't on the same level as Hawkeye r Hulk or Ms. Marvel, especially when the hero in question already has multiple counterparts, and double especially when you have Doom in his book using the Iron Man name.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:31
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I kind of want them to just use Iron Man just for the potential comedy of everybody assuming she's a guy until she talks.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:36
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Tony and Doom can be Iron Vir. Riri can be Iron Homo. Easy peasey.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:48
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Wait why are you all looking at me like tha—ooooh noooooo
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Aug 22, 2016 21:48
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RON HOWARD: And that was Squizzle's last day working in public relations for Marvel Entertainment.
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Aug 22, 2016 22:02
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Ironheart is no worse than Deadpool or Psylocke or lots of other names, honestly.
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Aug 22, 2016 22:02
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It could've been worse.
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Aug 22, 2016 22:17
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Toxxupation posted:I'm willing to bet an insanely large amount of money that the only reason Hydra Cap blew up into a thing (that, it must be noted, quickly blew over because nobody reads comics any more) was because 1) news stories could summarize the events of Captain America: Steve Rogers 1 with a single image that communicated exactly what happened that itself became memetic and 2) Chris Evans tweeted about it. I'm not joking, I really don't think it had anything to do with Steve Rogers being the "real" Captain America or whatever for comics fans because comics fans are a minority of consumers, it was a story that told itself via a single image helped along by a huge movie star commenting on it. If they wanted to expand the comic book audience though they would break out of the Diamond distributor model and start selling in common spaces again. (This is completely possible now that Marvel has Disney as muscle.) Their diversification is cool, and I love it, but it would be even cooler if more people could buy comics in person at their convenience.
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Aug 22, 2016 22:45
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Squizzle posted:In all honesty, it sounds like one of those "welp all the good superhero names are taken, what sounds close enough?" names, to me. It also makes her sound like a Thatcher-themed legacy of this guy: Marvel has its own Lionheart.  Who took over the role of male hero only to lose his name and largely disappear when he returned...
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Aug 22, 2016 22:52
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Roth posted:I kind of want them to just use Iron Man just for the potential comedy of everybody assuming she's a guy until she talks. Uh, robo-voice-modulator thingy. Duh
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Aug 22, 2016 22:54
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Yes well, being created by Chuck Austen is not exactly a strong start for a legacy character.
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Aug 22, 2016 22:54
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I bet Al Ewing could do something interesting with Lionheart, but she's working at a substantial handicap.
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Aug 22, 2016 22:55
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Particularly since her plotline involved the Avengers adopting her kids, but they could never know her secret identity. Then Avengers Disassembled happened.
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Aug 22, 2016 23:48
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I'm really getting tired of "so and so is the new ________ now and forevermore" stuff. I just have a hard time connecting to all these new versions of the characters when I've read the originals all my life. I feel like they could spend the time making new and good characters rather than reinventing the old ones to appease the internet.
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Aug 23, 2016 00:14
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Rubiks Pubes posted:I'm really getting tired of "so and so is the new ________ now and forevermore" stuff. I just have a hard time connecting to all these new versions of the characters when I've read the originals all my life. I feel like they could spend the time making new and good characters rather than reinventing the old ones to appease the internet. As has been gone over in this thread before, Marvel in particular has been told again and again that if they make brand-new characters, they will not be rewarded with sales success, with the sole exception of Kamala Khan. The advantage of changing up the lineup with legacies is, if nothing else, a lot of free publicity, which has worked out well so far. Jane as Thor, for example, outsells Thor's old book.
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Aug 23, 2016 00:28
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Rubiks Pubes posted:I'm really getting tired of "so and so is the new ________ now and forevermore" stuff. I just have a hard time connecting to all these new versions of the characters when I've read the originals all my life. I feel like they could spend the time making new and good characters rather than reinventing the old ones to appease the internet. 
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Aug 23, 2016 00:47
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It's easier to do a legacy character rather than trying to come up with a whole new power, costume, and everything with none of the brand recognition. Granted, it would be nice if legacy characters actually replaced the character instead of just being there until another writer says "But I want to write the one I grew up with"
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Aug 23, 2016 01:07
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Roth posted:It's easier to do a legacy character rather than trying to come up with a whole new power, costume, and everything with none of the brand recognition. Granted, it would be nice if legacy characters actually replaced the character instead of just being there until another writer says "But I want to write the one I grew up with" To be fair that's entirely DC because Marvel doesn't really have a history of legacy characters besides arguably Captain America, and even then that had extenuating circumstances of "Steve is dead or on the run from the government or something so I'll temporarily be Cap for now". This is really the first time characters like Spider-Man, Thor, Captain America, and Iron Man are or have had really for-reals legacy offshoots like DC has done for the past half-century.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:12
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That's only because technically clones aren't different characters. Also literally all of those characters have had legacies in the past. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 01:37
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X-O posted:Ironheart is a great name and approximately a million times better than either Iron Woman or Iron Maiden. Not as good as Lady Iron Man, though.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:45
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Wanderer posted:I bet Al Ewing could do something interesting with Lionheart, but she's working at a substantial handicap. She showed up and got to be kinda interesting in, IIRC, Captain Britain and MI-13. Al Ewing would do great with her, but Paul Cornell got there first.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:56
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Iron Man Woman.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:58
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:She showed up and got to be kinda interesting in, IIRC, Captain Britain and MI-13.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:58
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Dario the Wop posted:Didn't know that, but it's yet another reason I want to read it. Everything I've read about that series seems wonderful. I loved it, which of course means that no one actually bought the loving thing and it died far too soon.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:01
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SynthOrange posted:Iron Man Woman. Iron Whoa Man.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:09
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Her name should be Riri Ronman. I, Ronman. Solved.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:11
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If Marvel hired the musicians who did the '90s Iron Man TAS season two theme, to do the same song but "I...AM...IRONHEART", then I could make peace with this name.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:20
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I think the name 'Iron Heart' is especially stupid when you consider that she doesn't have an arc reactor implanted in her chest.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:24
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