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Solitair posted:If it weren't for the attempted rape scene near the start of the book, I would have classified Uprooted as YA fiction. That's not a bad thing and it's not a bad book; I loved how Nieshka's narration made magic sound like a beautiful work of art, the contrast between how she cast spells and how the magicians with titles did it, and how the book ramps up tension as the situation gets worse and Nieshka is often left impotent and frustrated because other people think they know what's best for her and won't listen. Then the scene where you find out where the Wood Queen came from happens, the tension is cut because people in power aren't belittling her anymore, and I could pretty much predict how the last act would go. I gotta say I agree with a lot of this about Uprooted, and the relationship between the lead and the wizard is...well, not abusive in the traditional sense but still not healthy even if he does come around to being more like a person. His reaction to that early book attempted-rape is particularly galling. I enjoyed reading the book but as I mulled it over my enjoyment diminished, to where I wouldn't recommend it to people now. Fifth Season on the other hand grabbed me tightly and didn't let go. I really want to see the rest of the trilogy and I hope Jemisin can stick the landing. I am really glad this one won the Hugo from the list for a lot of reasons but most especially because this is a book that pushes fantasy towards a more interesting place than 'sociopathic fantasy stab-rape' which seems to be the dominant mode. I got stuck in a bookstore lately and ended up reading and then buying and then devouring Foz Meadows's An Accident of Stars which had a lot of the hallmarks of other fantasy (ragtag group of rebels tries to unseat a tyrant) but was much more vivid in its worldbuilding and characters and took its plot in directions one didn't necessarily expect. It's a paperback release so it isn't even expensive. It's another book moving in a good direction for me, fantasy-wise.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:43
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occamsnailfile posted:I gotta say I agree with a lot of this about Uprooted, and the relationship between the lead and the wizard is...well, not abusive in the traditional sense but still not healthy even if he does come around to being more like a person. His reaction to that early book attempted-rape is particularly galling. I enjoyed reading the book but as I mulled it over my enjoyment diminished, to where I wouldn't recommend it to people now. I haven't actually read Fifth Season because the way it's described makes it sounds like it's going to be a great big depressing epic about the futility of everything, which isn't exactly what I read fantasy to experience. Is it really actually that bad or have I been getting the wrong impression?
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Aug 22, 2016 05:02
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It's not a happy story at all but that's not how I would characterize it.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:20
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Wolpertinger posted:I haven't actually read Fifth Season because the way it's described makes it sounds like it's going to be a great big depressing epic about the futility of everything, which isn't exactly what I read fantasy to experience. Is it really actually that bad or have I been getting the wrong impression? It's got plenty of "oh, jeez, that's brutal" moments but there were at least as many "wow" parts, and I thought it was absolutely deserving of the hugo. (I finished the sequel yesterday, and on the one hand it's the middle book of a trilogy and has everything that comes with that, it was still really good and it wouldn't be #1 on my ballot so far it was still really good).
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Aug 22, 2016 05:38
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I kinda feel bad that Chuck Tingle didn't win an award just for trolling the puppies so loving hard. They should make an erotic satire category for him next year.
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Aug 22, 2016 18:34
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I'd describe The Fifth Season as a more cynical version of X-Men that implicitly takes Magneto's side.
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Aug 22, 2016 18:54
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Wolpertinger posted:I haven't actually read Fifth Season because the way it's described makes it sounds like it's going to be a great big depressing epic about the futility of everything, which isn't exactly what I read fantasy to experience. Is it really actually that bad or have I been getting the wrong impression? Yeah, it's definitely a harsh read but I never took a message of futility from it--the protagonist has a long history of picking herself up after bad falls and soldiering grimly on, and she never gives up.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:26
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Solitair posted:I'd describe The Fifth Season as a more cynical version of X-Men that implicitly takes Magneto's side. Sold! I am gonna start this tonight.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:58
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Solitair posted:I'd describe The Fifth Season as a more cynical version of X-Men that implicitly takes Magneto's side. That's the best pitch I've ever heard for The Fifth Season.
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Aug 22, 2016 20:09
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fritz posted:It's got plenty of "oh, jeez, that's brutal" moments but there were at least as many "wow" parts, and I thought it was absolutely deserving of the hugo. (I finished the sequel yesterday, and on the one hand it's the middle book of a trilogy and has everything that comes with that, it was still really good and it wouldn't be #1 on my ballot so far it was still really good). Yeah, the middle book definitely has a lot of worldbuilding and setting up for the bigger conflict in the third book as opposed to a lot of serious conflict on its own terms.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:12
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UltimoDragonQuest posted:Is it really better than Children of Time? CoT was amazing. If we're voting for most accomplished book, it's Arcadia. If we're voting for best sci fi, CoT.
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Aug 22, 2016 23:26
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Edit: Nm
Phanatic fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 00:45
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Phanatic posted:Giving, of all people, *Larry Elmore* a No Award was "needed"? Larry "Dungeons and Dragons in the 80s" Elmore just isn't that interesting, especially compared to a lot of modern artists who were passed over because of slate tactics. Like, he barely even works anymore--I'm surprised he even had an eligible professional entry available from the previous year. "No Award" can be 'gently caress you rabid puppies' but it existed long before that and is intended for 'none of these people meets my personal criteria for hugo-worthy work'. I don't know if I would have voted for him on the basis of childhood nostalgia or not, myself.
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Aug 23, 2016 00:55
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I only just noticed this because I took Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form for granted, but I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that Fury Road lost to The Martian.occamsnailfile posted:Larry "Dungeons and Dragons in the 80s" Elmore just isn't that interesting, especially compared to a lot of modern artists who were passed over because of slate tactics. Like, he barely even works anymore--I'm surprised he even had an eligible professional entry available from the previous year. "No Award" can be 'gently caress you rabid puppies' but it existed long before that and is intended for 'none of these people meets my personal criteria for hugo-worthy work'. I don't know if I would have voted for him on the basis of childhood nostalgia or not, myself. I put anything tied to Castalia below No Award, and also stuff that I didn't think was that great, like Uprooted, Slow Bullets and The Builders.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:44
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Solitair posted:I only just noticed this because I took Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form for granted, but I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that Fury Road lost to The Martian. Like the Oscars, the Hugos don't have a "Most Awesome Movie" category.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:31
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Post more good stuff about Children of Time, because it's next in my queue but I'm stalling finishing off Cibola Burn sooo much. I've been hovering around the 80% mark for over a month. I need motivation to finish it off and move on to CoT.
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Aug 23, 2016 04:32
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Hedrigall posted:Post more good stuff about Children of Time, because it's next in my queue but I'm stalling finishing off Cibola Burn sooo much. I've been hovering around the 80% mark for over a month. I need motivation to finish it off and move on to CoT. Maybe you'll feel more motivated to finish books once you're reading a better book. If the Expanse book isn't holding your interest, you don't owe it to Daniel Abraham or Ty Franck to force yourself through it.
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Aug 23, 2016 07:35
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Hedrigall posted:Post more good stuff about Children of Time, because it's next in my queue but I'm stalling finishing off Cibola Burn sooo much. I've been hovering around the 80% mark for over a month. I need motivation to finish it off and move on to CoT. Well naturally Abigail mostly shits on it :nofunallowed: http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2016/08/the_2016_arthur.shtml That said I do agree with her that Aurora should be on the shortlist.
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Aug 23, 2016 10:30
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occamsnailfile posted:I gotta say I agree with a lot of this about Uprooted, and the relationship between the lead and the wizard is...well, not abusive in the traditional sense but still not healthy even if he does come around to being more like a person. His reaction to that early book attempted-rape is particularly galling. I enjoyed reading the book but as I mulled it over my enjoyment diminished, to where I wouldn't recommend it to people now. 'Foz Meadows is a genderqueer fantasy author with a pronounced weakness for Dragon Age, fanfic, webcomics and mornings that are so late as to technically constitute noons. She currently lives in Brisbane.' Hmmm. Might pass.
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Aug 23, 2016 10:54
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Can we discuss in here openly about diversity in the genre? Because Jemisin's outburst after the Hugo is quite troubling for me and it's definitely worth of a discussion. But I don't know if it would be okay here?
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Aug 23, 2016 11:27
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What outburst? I know the victory speech was aimed at puppies, but I wouldn't qualify that as troubling...
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Aug 23, 2016 11:36
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anilEhilated posted:What outburst? I know the victory speech was aimed at puppies, but I wouldn't qualify that as troubling... There's this follow-up: http://nkjemisin.com/2016/08/scattered-post-hugo-thoughts/ And specifically this: quote:That’s the segment of SFFdom that is generally bewildered by the whole discussion of diversity because Colorblindness™ and I Never Ask What The Gender Of The Writer Is Before I Buy A Book™ even though their personal bookshelves contain 90% white guys. It seems to me kind of a reckless tackle, especially as it's her first comment coming out of the Hugo and she's ready to point fingers in a very generalized way. Am I the only one who indeed has a bookshelf that likely is 90% white guys? Am I automatically a racist? I have a quite "diverse" library and have a good numbers of books written by female writers, including Jemisin herself, but that ratio probably still applies. I think this way of framing generalized accusations does a TERRIBLE disservice to the cause. It just delegitimizes it. She's essentially calling everyone an hypocrite.
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Aug 23, 2016 11:52
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She's really not.
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Aug 23, 2016 11:59
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Abalieno posted:Can we discuss in here openly about diversity in the genre? If it's interesting, yeah, of course,  . It's "X said a bad thing!" or "Y hasn't released his book yet!" or "Y wrote a bad book!" that's not cool, IMO. And the first and last are cool as long as it's discussion or a review, not a mock thread kind of thing. Which reminds me, gotta post about Amongst Others soonish.And this does sound interesting, please post! E2: That was fast. E3: Abalieno posted:There's this follow-up: http://nkjemisin.com/2016/08/scattered-post-hugo-thoughts/ Don't take her post personally, because it isn't. She's talking about two approaches to thinking about diversity in sff, both of which exist, both of which suck. The second isn't hypocrisy so much as wilful ignorance, dodging the question in bad faith. Hedrigall posted:Post more good stuff about Children of Time, because it's next in my queue but I'm stalling finishing off Cibola Burn sooo much. I've been hovering around the 80% mark for over a month. I need motivation to finish it off and move on to CoT. What's wrong with you? Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 12:05
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Abalieno posted:There's this follow-up: http://nkjemisin.com/2016/08/scattered-post-hugo-thoughts/ Your reading comprehension is really bad.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:13
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Neurosis posted:'Foz Meadows is a genderqueer fantasy author with a pronounced weakness for Dragon Age, fanfic, webcomics and mornings that are so late as to technically constitute noons. She currently lives in Brisbane.' Man, you're willing to tilt at the John C. Wright windmill, and this turns you off? I mean she doesn't wear a fedora or anything as far as I know. I didn't read the bio, I just picked up the book in the store.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:14
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Kalman posted:She's really not. Shitshow posted:Your reading comprehension is really bad. Then tell me what it means for you. For me, either: 1- You don't have a library made 90% by white guys, so it doesn't apply to you. 2- You have it, and you know you have a bias for gender and color of skin. 3- You have it, but you deny that gender and color of skin drive your choices. So you're an hypocrite. I fall in the 3rd category. My library (likely) is 90% white guys. But nope, I don't honestly look at gender of color of skin when I decide what to read. That "ratio" is due to other factors that have nothing to do with supposed prejudices.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:19
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Abalieno posted:There's this follow-up: http://nkjemisin.com/2016/08/scattered-post-hugo-thoughts/ Read more closely. She's calling out people who don't consider that there might be a diversity issue in sci-fi (and in particular, 'prestige' sci-fi) despite their shelves being mostly filled with white male authors. And yeah, if you haven't ever looked at that and gone 'huh, that's odd', you've probably got a few implicit assumptions you might want to re-examine.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:20
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Darth Walrus posted:Read more closely. She's calling out people who don't consider that there might be a diversity issue in sci-fi (and in particular, 'prestige' sci-fi) despite their shelves being mostly filled with white male authors. And yeah, if you haven't ever looked at that and gone 'huh, that's odd', you've probably got a few implicit assumptions you might want to re-examine. Nope, sorry. It's not "a diversity issue in sci-fi" because she looks at the *personal* bookshelves to make the comparison. She didn't say there's a diversity issue because it's obvious by looking at a bookshop. She explicitly points out at the *personal* choices you make when you personally decide what to read. It's *your* library at fault if the 90% white guys corresponds to truth. And if you read 90% white guys it's implied you're either discriminating, or an hypocrite. Or maybe you shrug it off because your library can only reflect what the market offers you, so it's the market "at fault" for the limited offer, and not you for your choices? That's quite a weak defense... Abalieno fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 12:25
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Abalieno posted:Then tell me what it means for you. OK, why do you think your literary tastes might be chiefly catered to by white guys? Or, possibly, why do you think the overwhelming majority of books you've heard of that cater to your tastes are written by white guys? White men aren't even a majority of the planet's English-speaking population. Don't you think it an unlikely coincidence that only they would write the books you like? Do you think that they might possibly have had an unfair advantage?
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Aug 23, 2016 12:29
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Abalieno posted:Nope, sorry. Are you 'bewildered by the whole discussion of diversity'? Because if you're not, then you're not who she's talking about. Seriously, you're displaying some really weak reading comprehension here.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:33
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Abalieno posted:an hypocrite. This looks so weird to me. Are you meant to say it like "a nippo-crite"?
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Aug 23, 2016 12:47
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Darth Walrus posted:OK, why do you think your literary tastes might be chiefly catered to by white guys? Or, possibly, why do you think the overwhelming majority of books you've heard of that cater to your tastes are written by white guys? It's a COMPLEX discussion, and because it's complex there's not a straight answer that explains it all, I think. For example, does Diana Gabaldon writes for the same audience Martin writes for? I'd guess she mostly have a female public (and I say that after purchasing Outlander a few months back). Same for Cassandra Clare or Anne Bishop. I think certain fandoms have their own public. That public that loves the thing, eventually turning into a writer. It's likely (but not a canon or rule) that a female reader has a certain reading orientation that is distinguishable from a male reader. It's a matter of diversity, and it's a positive one. This especially happens in "genre". But again that's only partially a description, as historically the big writers are still mainly white males. Joyce, Hesse, Flaubert. Or nowadays I think of Pynchon, David Foster Wallace or Roth. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 12:48
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I have a library that is probably 90% white guys, but it has nothing to do with race or gender - at least, not on my part. I have no idea what half the authors in my collection look like, nor do I care. It's an institutional problem, not a personal one. Which female SF author was it who used her initials over her full name because books by women didn't sell as well?
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Aug 23, 2016 12:49
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Jedit posted:Which female SF author was it who used her initials over her full name because books by women didn't sell as well? Like a million of them! JK Rowling, CJ Cherryh... And Alice Sheldon had to publish under a male synonym for much of her career (James Tiptree Jr).
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Aug 23, 2016 12:51
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Jedit posted:It's an institutional problem, not a personal one. Jedit posted:Which female SF author was it who used her initials over her full name because books by women didn't sell as well? Two consecutive sentences that contradict each other. Not bad.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:52
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Darth Walrus posted:White men aren't even a majority of the planet's English-speaking population. Don't you think it an unlikely coincidence that only they would write the books you like? Do you think that they might possibly have had an unfair advantage? Personally, I'm no more mystified by this than I am that there aren't more white, Asian, or Indian NFL cornerbacks.
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Aug 23, 2016 12:56
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Abalieno posted:Then tell me what it means for you. Number 3 option is just stupid. It is like saying that you don't care about the authors gender/race/politics, but since you don't read books by enough "diverse" authors you are lying to yourself without knowing it. No wonder gender politics and original sin have certain similarities. Jedit posted:I have a library that is probably 90% white guys, but it has nothing to do with race or gender - at least, not on my part. I have no idea what half the authors in my collection look like, nor do I care. It's an institutional problem, not a personal one. Which female SF author was it who used her initials over her full name because books by women didn't sell as well?  Also, the more I read about Scifi/fantasy authors, the less I want to know about them.
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Aug 23, 2016 13:19
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occamsnailfile posted:Man, you're willing to tilt at the John C. Wright windmill, and this turns you off? I mean she doesn't wear a fedora or anything as far as I know. I didn't read the bio, I just picked up the book in the store. I was aware of the irony as I wrote it. I wouldn't really be put off if a work is otherwise extremely well reviewed, but the Tumblr bio made me smirk.
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Aug 23, 2016 13:26
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Abalieno posted:It's a COMPLEX discussion, and because it's complex there's not a straight answer that explains it all, I think. Right, and if you think different demographics are only a very partial explanation, what do you think the rest of it might be? Remember, Jemisin is only calling out people who don't find it strange that their 'colourblind' reading habits might have led them to a shelf that is massively slanted towards one not-especially-big but very influential demographic. It's not the shelf that's the problem so much as not realising there might be a problem with the industry that's producing it. Here's the full paragraph again: quote:Meanwhile there’s a swath of SFFdom that would have you think the opposite — that my identity has no bearing on me winning, or on my writing, or anything — because race and gender have no bearing on white male writers so why should it re me? (Hint: it has bearing on white male writers.) That’s the segment of SFFdom that is generally bewildered by the whole discussion of diversity because Colorblindness ™ and I Never Ask What The Gender Of The Writer Is Before I Buy A Book ™ even though their personal bookshelves contain 90% white guys. These are the folks who really don’t get the readership’s calls for diversity, but eh, they can at least try to give the market what it wants, so they then send me yet another magazine invite rather than do anything to change or improve themselves. (Gotten two more in the past few days, pre-Hugo, but post-rant.) I mean, Christ, people, is it really such a strange thing to suggest that gender and race might affect authors' success, their presence in the market, and how both are measured?
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Aug 23, 2016 13:31
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