Pro LoL 2016 Championships: Underdog does not mean loser

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Pro LoL 2016 Championships: Underdog does not mean loser

Dragongem: Nov 9, 2009; Heroes of the Storm
Goon Tournament Champion

Luna Was Here posted:

any other talking point aside that caster poo poo is some real fucky poo poo.

Agreed. The caster thing sucks assuming it's true. It's evidence of a genuinely raw deal there for the casters that is only on Riot's end.

Everything else strikes me as pretty standard "we pay our share, the other guy needs to pay more" politcking.

Dragongem fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Aug 23, 2016

# ? Aug 23, 2016 13:00

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# ? May 10, 2024 12:28

Radical: Apr 6, 2011

i always thought the NA teams, at least, were doing much better than this. im mildly shocked to say the least, but maybe before the venture capital rush everything was ok? probably not for the players but i dunno.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 13:42

TeenageArchipelago: Jul 23, 2013

A fun thing that Regi mentioned and was forgotten was that riot can cap practice times but aren't and that is sad and not good

# ? Aug 23, 2016 13:48

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Lovechop posted:

i'm listening to monte's vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjFCS0WxJO4

holy poo poo it sounds like riot's casters get absolutely hosed, i really recommend listening to that bit at least

e. vvv 15m or so i think? vvv

He loses me at "think of all the awesome content we've lost because Jatt and Kobe and Deficio can't go make and monetize their own content"

# ? Aug 23, 2016 13:54

Sexpansion: Mar 22, 2003; DELETED

hahahahah this part of the monte vid slays me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjFCS0WxJO4&t=668s

# ? Aug 23, 2016 13:59

Radical: Apr 6, 2011

we should all strive to be a little more like regi

# ? Aug 23, 2016 14:01

Kashuno: Oct 9, 2012; Where the hell is my SWORD?; Grimey Drawer

Monte really goin all in on the caster thing

https://mobile.twitter.com/MonteCristo/status/768060653126815744

# ? Aug 23, 2016 14:39

Schnorkles: Apr 30, 2015; It's a little bit juvenile, but it's simple and it's timeless.

We let it be known that Schnorkles, for a snack, eats tiny pieces of shit.

You're picturing it and you're talking about it. That's a win in my book.

nothing about riot's behavior shocks or even surprises me.

billion dollar companies aren't exactly known for being nice people.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 15:39

Schnorkles: Apr 30, 2015; It's a little bit juvenile, but it's simple and it's timeless.

We let it be known that Schnorkles, for a snack, eats tiny pieces of shit.

You're picturing it and you're talking about it. That's a win in my book.

Also can someone explain why we care about the caster stuff other then that montecristo is a giant loving baby?

# ? Aug 23, 2016 15:42

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

I don't know, I guess if you don't give a poo poo about casters them being paid 40-70% of the industry standard doesn't matter.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 15:44

Kashuno: Oct 9, 2012; Where the hell is my SWORD?; Grimey Drawer

Schnorkles posted:

Also can someone explain why we care about the caster stuff other then that montecristo is a giant loving baby?

I don't really think this is him being a baby considering he doesn't get paid by Riot so he doesn't really have to give a poo poo what they pay. This is probably one of the few times he's being pretty selfless in pushing for Riot casters to make industry standards

# ? Aug 23, 2016 15:47

Radical: Apr 6, 2011

why does anyone care about anything, really makes u think

# ? Aug 23, 2016 15:48

Kashuno: Oct 9, 2012; Where the hell is my SWORD?; Grimey Drawer

Radical posted:

why does anyone care about anything, really makes u think

well it did but then I realized I don't care so I stopped thinking

# ? Aug 23, 2016 15:50

Schnorkles: Apr 30, 2015; It's a little bit juvenile, but it's simple and it's timeless.

We let it be known that Schnorkles, for a snack, eats tiny pieces of shit.

You're picturing it and you're talking about it. That's a win in my book.

Riot hires employees that are salaried rather than using freelance talent. They are given a salary and a benefit package and offered a job which they accept. They probably get raises too and whatever other perks you get for working at Riot. All of the "you can't use your image" is disclosed in their employment contract.

I hate to go "free market b!tch" but there is no reason for a company that is primarily concerned with profit [which riot, and especially riot's owner, tencent, is] to arbitrarily match a standard to offer the same product. Expecting them to do so is quixotic.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 15:51

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

I mean Yeah if you love the free market that much I can see how it wouldn't be an issue. Godbless

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:01

Lovechop: Feb 1, 2005; cheers mate

who's the best caster to listen to if you're a big fan of ayn rand

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:02

Work Friend Keven: Oct 24, 2015; I'M A BIG STUPID IDIOT WHO GETS TRIGGERED FROM THE WORDS SPORTS BALL AND HAS SHIT OPINIONS ABOUT CARD GAMES. ALSO I SAID I WAS GOING TO QUIT HEARTHSTONE OUT OF SPITE OF A TAIWANESE WINNING THE CHAMPIONSHIP SO REPORT ME IF YOU SEE ME POST IN A HS THREAD

Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

He loses me at "think of all the awesome content we've lost because Jatt and Kobe and Deficio can't go make and monetize their own content"

Lol

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:03

RealFoxy: May 11, 2011; I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Riot Games in general pays a whole lot less than both the industry standard, and for the region of Santa Monica. Laughably worse, even for a company that's in the billions. You can tell me how nice it is to have a gym and free breakfast and all that, but it's something that really doesn't matter in the long run if you're barely making enough money to pay your rent + save money.

You work at Riot Games because you love League of Legends, not because you want to make good money. This isn't defending the company though, they really do need to pay their employees a whole lot more, and I was told by a Rioter that they even outsourced all their customer service except for Player Behavior to a third-party company in Seattle.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:04

Sexpansion: Mar 22, 2003; DELETED

Lovechop posted:

who's the best caster to listen to if you're a big fan of ayn rand

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:08

Schnorkles: Apr 30, 2015; It's a little bit juvenile, but it's simple and it's timeless.

We let it be known that Schnorkles, for a snack, eats tiny pieces of shit.

You're picturing it and you're talking about it. That's a win in my book.

I mean what exactly is the issue here?

Is it a.) Riot doesn't pay its salaried employees as much as expensive freelancers? or b.) That Riot won't pay the going rate for expensive freelancers and instead relies on its salaried employees?

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:11

Schnorkles: Apr 30, 2015; It's a little bit juvenile, but it's simple and it's timeless.

We let it be known that Schnorkles, for a snack, eats tiny pieces of shit.

You're picturing it and you're talking about it. That's a win in my book.

Is there a c that I'm missing?

Because no company in the history of ever matches freelance salary in their own salaried employees.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:12

Lovechop: Feb 1, 2005; cheers mate

Sexpansion posted:

LS

you see, atlas shrugged is *cough* atlas shrugged is a lot like yu gi oh. you use your pot of greed to draw two new cards. dragonball z. vegeta. sahmsung

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:13

TeenageArchipelago: Jul 23, 2013

RealFoxy posted:

Riot Games in general pays a whole lot less than both the industry standard, and for the region of Santa Monica. Laughably worse, even for a company that's in the billions. You can tell me how nice it is to have a gym and free breakfast and all that, but it's something that really doesn't matter in the long run if you're barely making enough money to pay your rent + save money.

You work at Riot Games because you love League of Legends, not because you want to make good money. This isn't defending the company though, they really do need to pay their employees a whole lot more, and I was told by a Rioter that they even outsourced all their customer service except for Player Behavior to a third-party company in Seattle.

Didn't they outsource player behavior too? The tribunal is 100% outsourcing(or "crowd sourcing")

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:13

Libertine: Jun 21, 2004; When I die, I hope they say I made the eSports industry a better place than I made millions of dollars.

Riot can offer less money for people to work at Riot because people want to work at Riot for the status of doing so. They don't have to offer competitive salaries to attract the talent that they want. Almost everyone who works for them in some visible capacity is extremely famous because of it.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:14

Taciturn Tactician: Jan 27, 2011; The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation; Lipstick Apathy

TeenageArchipelago posted:

A fun thing that Regi mentioned and was forgotten was that riot can cap practice times but aren't and that is sad and not good

Can they though? What counts as practice? Because I'm pretty sure pros would take issue with being banned from streaming solo queue because that counts as practice time and the coach wants them to use it efficiently. Do queue times count? And if solo queue doesn't count, have they really meaningfully capped the time players spend on their job? Maybe they could stop coachs mandating too much time, but in an industry where if you're not top 50 in your region you're fired, do players really have a choice anyway?

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:15

Sexpansion: Mar 22, 2003; DELETED

https://twitter.com/Thooorin/status/768104498808164352

I am a twitter bot sorry.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:17

Redmark: Dec 11, 2012; This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013

TeenageArchipelago posted:

A fun thing that Regi mentioned and was forgotten was that riot can cap practice times but aren't and that is sad and not good

uhhhh if he wants this he might as well ask for Riot to run all the teams because how else is that even enforceable

like you'd have to force people to live in your gamer house to play professionally, that's insane

Redmark fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Aug 23, 2016

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:17

Schnorkles: Apr 30, 2015; It's a little bit juvenile, but it's simple and it's timeless.

We let it be known that Schnorkles, for a snack, eats tiny pieces of shit.

You're picturing it and you're talking about it. That's a win in my book.

Libertine posted:

Riot can offer less money for people to work at Riot because people want to work at Riot for the status of doing so. They don't have to offer competitive salaries to attract the talent that they want. Almost everyone who works for them in some visible capacity is extremely famous because of it.

This is a well known thing. People who take jobs in games get paid less. You take a job in games, get worked to death for a few years and then get out. I don't particularly think its good or sustainable, but Riot is not somehow unique in their blame in this.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:18

TeenageArchipelago: Jul 23, 2013

My favorite part about all of this has been Regi complaining about lovely patch schedules and player treatment, and then this turned into a thing about streamer pay

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:19

Radical: Apr 6, 2011

videogame companies are really the worst, *imagine i quoted james talking about how valve wanted to pay casters with signature sales here*

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:21

Kashuno: Oct 9, 2012; Where the hell is my SWORD?; Grimey Drawer

TeenageArchipelago posted:

My favorite part about all of this has been Regi complaining about lovely patch schedules and player treatment, and then this turned into a thing about streamer pay

Pretty much. I think if Riot had just said nothing at all, it would've been so much better for them.

also :laffo:

about the G2 and FNC financial ties, which are far more black and white than the whole thing they had with Renegades and TDK

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:23

Taciturn Tactician: Jan 27, 2011; The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation; Lipstick Apathy

Schnorkles posted:

This is a well known thing. People who take jobs in games get paid less. You take a job in games, get worked to death for a few years and then get out. I don't particularly think its good or sustainable, but Riot is not somehow unique in their blame in this.

Riot can also not take part in it. It's not like Riot has been run by a thousand shareholders since inception, it used to be pretty small and personally run. If they're in a position where they don't or can't choose to pay more than they strictly have to to fill the position (because it's more sustainable or it's better PR or ethics or whatever else) that's a result of their own choices one way or another.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 16:24

Radical: Apr 6, 2011

man even TSM weldon went in on tryndamere for that post and he appears to be the chillest man on earth from what ive seen

# ? Aug 23, 2016 17:08

InflateableFerret: Dec 1, 2005; I pooped my pants

Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

He loses me at "think of all the awesome content we've lost because Jatt and Kobe and Deficio can't go make and monetize their own content"

Hey man, Kobe is the loving tits you take that back.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 18:46

Sexpansion: Mar 22, 2003; DELETED

Well kill me now, Reginald said something incredibly smart:

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sp1imb

quote:

Response to Marc
http://bit.ly/2bBPgo0

Based on Marc�s comment, it feels like there's a belief at Riot that team owners make a lot of money off LCS and invest it into other eSports, but that is far from the truth. I've invested more into NA LCS than any other team. Instead of investing into other games early like Dota 2 and CS:GO; TSM has spent millions on content, players and staff to support LCS. We provided the first gaming house in NA before there were any sponsors at all and were the first team to provide health benefits for players. While I continued to make bigger investments into LoL, other LCS team organizations invested into CS:GO early and made more money for players in one year from CS:GO stickers than Riot paid them in three years of stipends and icon sales combined and that game is only a fraction of the size of LoL.

Starting in 2008, I invested in the scene by creating guides, hosting tournaments and making as much content as we could because of our passion and love for LoL. I made no money for two years and had to borrow from my parents because I believed so much in the game. I worked night and day, putting thousands of hours into building the community. I love LoL eSports as much as anyone in the world and I�ve invested more of my own resources into it than I can even remember.

TSM hosted some of the very first tournaments and online circuits for LoL eSports. By constantly streaming and investing our own money, time and love, we helped viewership explode for LoL in NA. Our online circuit built viewership from nothing to as many as 60,000 concurrent viewers. But as soon as this happened, Riot made the decision to bring league operations in-house which gave them control over all of the league sponsorship and streaming revenue, which eliminated much of our profit overnight, as well as tournament organizers such as IPL, MLG, and ESL, which either folded or turned to other titles

Which brings us to Marc�s post. He makes 2 main points, both of which convey an out-of-date perspective which doesn�t take into account the current state of the eSports ecosystem.

Marc�s Point #1: TSM makes a lot of money from LCS, doesn�t invest enough in its LCS players and loses money on other eSports.

I think Marc realized quickly that this is not a helpful thing to say because he edited his post and removed it, but it�s important to be clear about economics here. It used to be true that we made money from LoL eSports, but that was before LCS and the economic situation is getting progressively worse.

Most LCS teams lose money because stipends are stagnant, sponsorships for LCS team operations are shrinking and the cost of player salaries, content production, support staff and housing costs are spiraling up.

The reason why I started to invest in other games was because LCS left me no choice. The relegation system is unstable and risky for everyone, other publishers are more collaborative and provide more opportunities for teams and players to make revenue.

Over time, LCS has become more demanding and restrictive and the dynamics of a mutually beneficial relationship have become more one-sided. LCS told team sponsors, which are a necessary source of revenue, that they can�t even go backstage to watch the players compete. Teams can�t have sponsor branding on beverages or hats. Logitech is one of our greatest and most supportive sponsors and they simply can�t get visibility through us competing in LCS because we can�t wear their headsets while competing. We had to push endlessly to get permission for our staff simply to be able to film backstage. LCS even threatened to fine us if we didn�t remove sponsor content from our YouTube channel, such as this HTC commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBeTqzErgZI.

At the same time, LCS compensation has barely budged, but the length of the season and the number of scheduled matches has skyrocketed. As a result, the LCS schedule has created a desperate time-crunch for players. By taking almost all of our players� available time, there simply is no time or energy for the players to do other activities to make money, such as doing event activations for sponsors (e.g., PAX Prime or PAX East), creating content and streaming. In order to fulfill our activation obligations to team sponsors, we were forced to hire non-LoL players who were able to travel to these types of events.

The bottom line is that an LCS stipend only covers a fraction of the cost of an LCS team�s operations. As a result, revenue from team sponsors is absolutely necessary, but the current LCS system is leading team sponsors to reduce support or � much worse � consider shifting support to eSports other than LoL.

Marc also made some comments insinuating that I don�t pay my players enough. I�ve always been at the very top of the pay scale in player compensation and am in the process of rolling out a stock participation plan for TSM players. I�ve regularly gone above and beyond our contracts and increased player compensation even before the contracts expired. Another commitment I made was hiring a video team to help build out our players� YouTube channels, so when they retire - they have a transition to a continuing career (http://bit.ly/2bCEcs9). I�ve increased my player salaries more significantly in the past year, but LCS player stipends have been frozen. Combined with the fact that LCS doesn�t share sponsorship revenue, streaming revenue or even give a percentage to the World Champions for their team skins, I think that it�s unfair to imply that I�m greedy. I have made a lot of money in my business, but not from LCS team operations and TSM has made the playoffs eight splits in a row. Almost all of the profit I�ve earned has been from my websites and building out my streaming network.

Marc�s comment: http://bit.ly/2bvUG1W

Marc says that I have the power to change this dynamic, but the truth is I�m not an owner in the same sense that Marc is. Traditional major sports organizations own stadiums and franchise rights in a league. In my case, Marc owns the game and the exclusive league and he just offers me a contract every December to participate in LCS, a slot which I risk losing twice a year. I can�t earn anything related to LCS except what he pays me or allows me to earn.

I�ve done all I can and it's not enough. It�s irrational to invest even more money into LCS, given how restrictive LCS is on our team coupled with the potential of being relegated every split. Even the current and potential outside investors who are now exploring the space already assume that viable rev-sharing with the teams and players exist.

The real power to fix this situation is in Riot�s hands. They can stabilize the LCS system and provide security and sufficient compensation for the players. They can share streaming and sponsorship revenue, they can expand and promote the sale of in-game items and share that revenue, they can create a robust merchandising program and sell team and player items in their online store. If they did these things, it would help justify the huge sacrifices made by young players as they strive to become true professional athletes.

Marc�s Point #2: Teams are merely �complaining� about patches without a legitimate basis.

Marc is suggesting that patches expose weaknesses in team rosters and that players need to just man up. He is missing the point; the pro LoL players who are eligible for Worlds have been furiously practicing on the previous patch and many people don�t understand that the specialized skills which LCS players practice don�t really carry over from one patch to the next.

The system should reward those players who have dedicated the most time and energy to preparing for Worlds, but introducing a new patch near the end of the season knocks everyone back to the starting point. LCS player careers are already too short and mid-season patches ratchet up the stress on them and further increase the odds of being cut. This kind of TIMING of patches can force a team to make a roster change rather than trying to coach players through a difficult patch transition. A few weeks of poor performance can end a player�s career and nobody wants to improve player job security more than me.

The community and the players want the true best teams to represent them in Worlds, but the chances of an upset due to lack of familiarity with the new patch are too high. I have played as a pro for 5 years and Marc and others may not understand how disruptive this is to the careers of players and to the integrity of Worlds gameplay. Huge patch disruptions in playoffs results in unsatisfying results and lower-quality gameplay.

I�m fully aware and understand that Riot can�t balance for Pro players. The players and community just need more understanding about the timing of changes to competitive gameplay.

---------------

I�ve dedicated my entire adult life to building the LoL eSports community and want nothing more than a stable, growing, increasingly-professional eSports environment that will ensure that players can have long-term careers with fair compensation. I�m willing to work with Marc and anyone else to make this situation better. I�m focused on the solution, not the problem.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 19:16

Radical: Apr 6, 2011

man this is getting spicy

# ? Aug 23, 2016 19:25

Work Friend Keven: Oct 24, 2015; I'M A BIG STUPID IDIOT WHO GETS TRIGGERED FROM THE WORDS SPORTS BALL AND HAS SHIT OPINIONS ABOUT CARD GAMES. ALSO I SAID I WAS GOING TO QUIT HEARTHSTONE OUT OF SPITE OF A TAIWANESE WINNING THE CHAMPIONSHIP SO REPORT ME IF YOU SEE ME POST IN A HS THREAD

In of the form of his rebuttal, Riot Tryndamere has asked Only_Jaximus to call some strangers names with his shirt off for between 15 and 45 minutes, depending on personal stamina and if twitch bans him in time or not.

# ? Aug 23, 2016 19:26