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I'm of the opinion that constant iterations on heroes is a good thing because even minor changes have second order effects and it is cool and good that potentially every hero might be usable in comp while being rewarding and fun to play for even the lowest skilled. Thor-Stryker posted:Mcree gets an OK nerf (Harder on less skilled players.) And they proceed to reiterate him two more times, leaving him as a 100% required hero for comp. McCree was hit really hard, but fairly, enough so that Soldier completely overshadowed him (they exist in the same design space though and really should change that). Even now, McCree is falling out of favor for Tracer/Genji because the McCree/Zen meta was strong enough to come up with a hard counter to it (as McCree is rear end at being an antiflanker I have no idea what they were thinking).
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Aug 23, 2016 15:06
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NTRabbit posted:Except Zarya and Mei's ults do zero damage, and require other members of the team to contribute volumes of fire in order to achieve a wipe. Genji can wipe an entire team on his own, without any help at all. Genji right now is far and away more gamebreaking than Widowmaker ever was, once you take out the aimbotters. No, he isn't, and you actually just described one of the reasons -- a team game balances around team performance. Widowmaker was a universal constant in every tournament team before her nerf. Genji, even now, shares a flex slot with Reaper, who is commonly cited as one of the most balanced DPS heroes in the game. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 15:08
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NTRabbit posted:Except Zarya and Mei's ults do zero damage, and require other members of the team to contribute volumes of fire in order to achieve a wipe. Genji can wipe an entire team on his own, without any help at all, and with only have handful of characters having any kind of option to prevent it from happening, and only if they're not first, and quick on the draw. Genji right now is far and away more gamebreaking than Widowmaker ever was, once you take out the aimbotters. Mei's ult does minor damage iirc friend.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:10
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Warbird posted:Mei's ult does minor damage iirc friend. So does Zarya's, but it's kind of beside the point. Ults that hold the enemy in place are insanely powerful, and "you need your team to shoot them too" doesn't really diminish that; at a serious level of play it's a given.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:13
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:So does Zarya's, but it's kind of beside the point. Ults that hold the enemy in place are insanely powerful, and "you need your team to shoot them too" doesn't really diminish that; at a serious level of play it's a given. Ults that hold people in place like that require teamwork to kill everyone there. Genji doesn't require anything, he can run through and solo a team at will, how can you possibly be missing the point by this far? He's ridiculously overpowered.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:15
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NTRabbit posted:Ults that hold people in place like that require teamwork to kill everyone there. Genji doesn't require anything, he can run through and solo a team at will, how can you possibly be missing the point by this far? He's ridiculously overpowered. Because stats don't bear you out (in last week's tournament results pre-nerf Genji was already losing ground to other flankers) and because he can't "run through and solo a team at will." Lucio and Zenyatta negate 75% of his ult and, depending on how he initiates, can sometimes stifle it completely, and a well-played McCree or Roadhog will delete him. If the enemy team has none of those heroes, it's their own fault, and even then they can still scatter and significantly diminish his effectiveness -- the same way many ults are answered.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:18
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FaustianQ posted:McCree was hit really hard, but fairly, enough so that Soldier completely overshadowed him (they exist in the same design space though and really should change that). Even now, McCree is falling out of favor for Tracer/Genji because the McCree/Zen meta was strong enough to come up with a hard counter to it (as McCree is rear end at being an antiflanker I have no idea what they were thinking). Is there new data supporting the Mcree fallout? He still seems comparatively 100% required because otherwise the character he counters would be making a comeback: Pharah. Genji is more in a meta flex-spot, he doesn't outright kill people like Mcree/Tracer, but his ultimate is one of hardest to counter, making him good for those final pushes on the point. Which is important in a game where the defending team only has to travel a third of the distance to reach the final point.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:24
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Because stats don't bear you out (in last week's tournament results pre-nerf Genji was already losing ground to other flankers) and because he can't "run through and solo a team at will." Lucio and Zenyatta negate 75% of his ult and, depending on how he initiates, can sometimes stifle it completely, and a well-played McCree or Roadhog will delete him. If the enemy team has none of those heroes, it's their own fault, and even then they can still scatter and significantly diminish his effectiveness -- the same way many ults are answered. Personally I don't give a gently caress about your tourny meta, I'm talking about quickplay, where I've just finished playing against a Genji on Numbani who wiped the entire team 4 times without losing his life once, or letting us reach the first cap. He is undeniably overpowered, his chained abilities make him invulnerable and capable of huge burst damage, and his ult is unstoppable. He is overwhelmingly deserving of a nerf. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 15:31
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Doesn't genji benifit from the projectile change? If so the ultimate vs projectile change seems like a wash. 8sec to 6 sec isn't massive considering you eitherget your key picks or die in the first 3 seconds.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:34
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Thor-Stryker posted:Is there new data supporting the Mcree fallout? He still seems comparatively 100% required because otherwise the character he counters would be making a comeback: Pharah. https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-08-18-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-i-love-lucio McCree went from S, to B, to now C tier (also known as balanced swappable). McCree/Reaper/Genji all fight to occupy the same DPS slot, and the only A class hero is Zarya (despite NTR's insane ramblings, I legit think Zarya is a must have and pretty close to overpowered). McCree is good, but far too slow to keep up with a deathball and sees almost all his usage as a defensive hero as a result. McCree may fall even further out of favor with the reversion of projectile hitboxes, Hanzos and Mei buffs, the the complete annihilation of his ults utility. Phara and Mercy will make a comeback as well, since Mercy will heal faster and Discord/Speed boost is nerfed, making Lucio and Zen less important.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Because stats don't bear you out (in last week's tournament results pre-nerf Genji was already losing ground to other flankers) and because he can't "run through and solo a team at will." Lucio and Zenyatta negate 75% of his ult and, depending on how he initiates, can sometimes stifle it completely, and a well-played McCree or Roadhog will delete him. If the enemy team has none of those heroes, it's their own fault, and even then they can still scatter and significantly diminish his effectiveness -- the same way many ults are answered. Zenyatta negates 75% of genji's ult, and 100% of reaper's ult, and 100% of mei's ult, and 100% of pharah's ult, and 100% of hanzo's ult, and 100% of roadhog's ult, and 100% of 76's ult. Zenyatta has the most powerful counter in the entire game and the fact that it negates 75% of genji's ult is too much? Also talking about tourney meta like it's a real thing that applies to 99% of anything to do with anything with this game is stupid.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:37
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Just had an awesome round of Soldier 76. Me and a Reaper were just mowing people down ahead of the pack while we the payload basically never stopped moving in King's Row. It was awesome. Me and the Reaper also managed to get behind enemy lines in the first point really quick which was fun.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:39
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NTRabbit posted:Personally I don't give a gently caress about your tourny meta, Then why are you talking about balance? Without that context it's just whining about a hero who beat you because you were unaware of or unable to use existing counters. Bushiz posted:Zenyatta negates 75% of genji's ult, and 100% of reaper's ult, and 100% of mei's ult, and 100% of pharah's ult, and 100% of hanzo's ult, and 100% of roadhog's ult, and 100% of 76's ult. Zenyatta is strong because of Discord. His ultimate's good, but it's not the best in the game. (That's probably Zarya's.) Also, offensive abilities should, in general, be slightly stronger than defensive ones, in order to favor aggression and prevent stalemates. Genji's ultimate is an especially good candidate for this because it can be shut down at any time by killing him and requires at least a modest amount of execution to pull off, unlike many ultimates. Bushiz posted:Also talking about tourney meta like it's a real thing that applies to 99% of anything to do with anything with this game is stupid. It would be even better (because of a larger sample size) to talk about top 500 games on the competitive ladder, but we don't have access to that data. Failing that, tournaments are the next best thing. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 15:39
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Then why are you talking about balance? Because I'm talking about the game that most people play, not the theoretical min max battleground of pro players that account for less than 1% of anything. Get a grip. In the game that most people play, Genji is broken as all gently caress.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:44
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NTRabbit posted:Because I'm talking about the game that most people play, not the theoretical min max battleground of pro players that account for less than 1% of anything. Get a grip. You have it backwards. The more "min max" you get, the closer you are to talking about the limits of the game, rather than the limits of the players. Balancing the game means changing the former, not the latter. The latter is completely fluid and beyond your control as a developer anyways.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:45
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Bushiz posted:Zenyatta negates 75% of genji's ult, and 100% of reaper's ult, and 100% of mei's ult, and 100% of pharah's ult, and 100% of hanzo's ult, and 100% of roadhog's ult, and 100% of 76's ult. Its better if they balance around rank 40 play, imo.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:46
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The new map is really fun but I can see that you could get frustrated if the teams are uneven, especially as an attacker. It's also a weird mix of many ways to flank alongside tight passageways. So far I've had most fun playing as junkrat or symmetra, since there are loads of good turret positions and the map is so maze-like that you can hide your teleporter real easily.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:47
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Mei is a hilarious quasi-counter to Genji in that a good Genji won't get close enough to get iced but there are so few of those that most of the time Mei will negate a Genji, and hard. Even without freezing him solid, slowing him down is hilariously effective at helping the team shoot him because it means he's less likely to end up getting to safety during/after a reflect. I've gotten used to just baiting the reflect with a couple icicles, reloading, slowing him with the freeze spray, and then bipping him with an icicle to the face when he's slow enough but typically before he's frozen. Again, a good Genji won't get close enough to let the freeze part happen and he'd probably reflect the icicle back at my head for a comedic kill, but those are rare. I'm more worried about the Roadhog hook-M1-melee combo being affected by the animation-cancel fix. Dude's got zero mobility and taking away that little extra piece of burst damage makes me a little worried it'll hurt his role as an anti-mobility hero since it means someone like Tracer can just escape after eating the hook and a not-perfect M1 blast.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:48
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Star posted:The new map is really fun but I can see that you could get frustrated if the teams are uneven, especially as an attacker. It's also a weird mix of many ways to flank alongside tight passageways. So far I've had most fun playing as junkrat or symmetra, since there are loads of good turret positions and the map is so maze-like that you can hide your teleporter real easily. Yeah I don't think the map will go live as is. They're going to have to shift some things around to open it up a bit for attackers. It feels really defense oriented, then again I'm still learning the ins n outs of it.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:49
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Zenyatta is strong because of Discord. His ultimate's good, but it's not the best in the game. (That's probably Zarya's.) good thing I didn't say it was the best ult, I said it was the best counter Tuxedo Catfish posted:Also, offensive abilities should, in general, be slightly stronger than defensive ones, in order to favor aggression and prevent stalemates. Genji's ultimate is an especially good candidate for this because it can be shut down at any time by killing him and requires at least a modest amount of execution to pull off, unlike many ultimates. Offensive abilities are intrinsically stronger than defensive ones because offensive abilities and ults have the liberty of engaging whenever they drat well please. You can't "plan" the perfect use of sound barrier or line up a great transcendence or strategize the perfect rez. You can only mash q when poo poo's been or is about to be completely hosed.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:50
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You really think they are going to change their map in the next two weeks when they didn't even fix McCrees sniper revolver before that patch went live?
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Aug 23, 2016 15:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You have it backwards. The more "min max" you get, the closer you are to talking about the limits of the game, rather than the limits of the players. Balancing the game means changing the former, not the latter. The latter is completely fluid and beyond your control as a developer anyways. No, you have your head so far up it you have no idea what's going on. The ceiling that Genji has when played by a skilled player is so overwhelmingly high that it cannot be beaten in quickplay. Genji is overpowered. Hugely so, and will rightfully be nerfed, because every game I play in with one of those Genjis in it results in everyone quitting and rejoining the queue, because an xp penalty and queueing is more fun than 3 minutes of frustrating, fun sucking gameplay against in invulnerable killing machine.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:51
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flashman posted:Its better if they balance around rank 40 play, imo. There's no such thing as "balanced around rank 40 play." What is strong in any given game at that level depends is more likely to revolve around who's smurfing, or who's spent all their time practicing a single hero, or whoever's playing a hero that nobody bothered to counter because they don't know the counters (which is to say it's practically down to luck if everyone's just playing their favorite) than because a hero can triple-jump or is rewarded a little too much for clicking heads consistently. Huge changes in power will ripple down, sometimes, but on the other hand even pre-nerf Widowmakers were typically dead weight in the 40s.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:52
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NTRabbit posted:No, you have your head so far up it you have no idea what's going on. The ceiling that Genji has when played by a skilled player is so overwhelmingly high that it cannot be beaten in quickplay. 2 Winstons
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Aug 23, 2016 15:53
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NTRabbit posted:No, you have your head so far up it you have no idea what's going on. The ceiling that Genji has when played by a skilled player is so overwhelmingly high that it cannot be beaten in quickplay. He's not that bad lol
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Aug 23, 2016 15:53
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flashman posted:2 Winstons Achieves nothing at all against a Genji, who simply stays out of range, flings stars, and then ults the to death. And when was the last time you convinced someone in quickplay to change character, let alone change to a particular character to make a duo?
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Aug 23, 2016 15:54
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flashman posted:You really think they are going to change their map in the next two weeks when they didn't even fix McCrees sniper revolver before that patch went live? I don't think the patch will go live until the week season 2 comes out and they've already done some ptr patches. I mean they could easily let it go live and then patch it later, they've changed gibraltar a few times after all. I don't mind being wrong about this though. Just my two cents.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:54
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Bushiz posted:Offensive abilities are intrinsically stronger than defensive ones because offensive abilities and ults have the liberty of engaging whenever they drat well please. You can't "plan" the perfect use of sound barrier or line up a great transcendence or strategize the perfect rez. You can only mash q when poo poo's been or is about to be completely hosed. Actually, you can plan the use of those abilities, and it's a huge part of good support play. You should know which enemy ults warrant you ulting in response and holding on to them often turns into a game of chicken between you and Genji / Zarya / etc. NTRabbit posted:No, you have your head so far up it you have no idea what's going on. The ceiling that Genji has when played by a skilled player is so overwhelmingly high that it cannot be beaten in quickplay. I know exactly what is going on. You are getting salty about games you, personally, lost and you're letting it cloud your judgment. You're in luck, though, because that's who Blizzard designs for.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:54
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flashman posted:Its better if they balance around rank 40 play, imo. they should balance the game in whatever way causes the least disruption to the most players. If they have to dumpster competitive genji to not make him a wrecking ball in the mid-ranks, that's the best solution. Better pros not play genji ever than every qp game have five genjis and every comp game have both sides instalock him.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:56
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:There's no such thing as "balanced around rank 40 play." What is strong in any given game at that level depends is more likely to revolve around who's smurfing, or who's spent all their time practicing a single hero, or whoever's playing a hero that nobody bothered to counter because they don't know the counters (which is to say it's practically down to luck if everyone's just playing their favorite) than because a hero can triple-jump or is rewarded a little too much for clicking heads consistently. Huge changes in power will ripple down, sometimes, but on the other hand even pre-nerf Widowmakers were typically dead weight in the 40s. Do you honestly think it's fair that if a mcree has good aim and can consistently click on heads hr should be rewarded with kills? Not every one has the time to get good aim you know.. personally I am rank 35 to 40 but I know without the op bullshit like genji I have the game sense and tactics to make it to the top.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:56
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I know exactly what is going on. You are getting salty about games you, personally, lost and you're letting it cloud your judgment. No, what's happening is you;re getting massive salty because Genji is getting nerfed, and trying to justify why it shouldn't be done.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:56
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NTRabbit posted:Achieves nothing at all against a Genji, and when was the last time you convinced someone in quickplay to change character, let alone change to a particular character to make a duo? A single Winston can hold off a genji decently. I do it when necessary I agree genji's ult needed nerfing and i think cutting down the duration of it should be fine, dont agree with the removal of triple jump but I don't play Genji enough for it to really matter to me.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Actually, you can plan the use of those abilities, and it's a huge part of good support play. You should know which enemy ults warrant you ulting in response and holding on to them often turns into a game of chicken between you and Genji / Zarya / etc. A game of chicken where the terms are dictated by that zarya/genji/etc.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:58
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flashman posted:Do you honestly think it's fair that if a mcree has good aim and can consistently click on heads hr should be rewarded with kills? Not every one has the time to get good aim you know.. personally I am rank 35 to 40 but I know without the op bullshit like genji I have the game sense and tactics to make it to the top. I think McCree is possibly a little over the top, but it's hard to tell how much of it is him and how much of it is just Zenyatta synergy. He might need another nerf, but they should tone down Discord and leave him untouched for now, and come back with another month or two's worth of data before revisiting him. (And in general this is how most balance changes should work.) NTRabbit posted:No, what's happening is you;re getting massive salty because Genji is getting nerfed, and trying to justify why it shouldn't be done. I'm a Tracer / Zarya main. I benefit from these changes. Nice try, though.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:59
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Mei's so called buff isn't really going to help her at all. Her abilities are good but her gun is pure trash her ult aint that good to begin with. The thing that baffles me is the ohh it wont bounce of reind's shield anymore.....whoppdee fnnng doo like that was what was holding her back. I think she's doomed to continue her choosen role as the fat girl picked last in gym class that blizzard wants for her cause comp play aint happening anytime soon. There is also an ingrained perception about her, play her for a few hours even on quick play and you will get multiple messages telling you to switch cause she's trash. I almost think they will have to overbuff her then nerf her back to break that worthless perception because no comp team wants to carry her.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:59
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Bushiz posted:A game of chicken where the terms are dictated by that zarya/genji/etc. Lol exactly! As if the use of a defensive ult should be dictated by the biggest threat on the opposing team of 6. Sometimes I use transcendence to top up my team mates before a battle and then some no skill zarya presses q and they wipe us. I mean what is the counter to that bullshit?
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Aug 23, 2016 16:00
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MacheteZombie posted:A single Winston can hold off a genji decently. I do it when necessary his triple jump being removed is bad but his melee cancel combo getting removed is good. I still think his ult's hitbox is too big.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:01
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Bushiz posted:A game of chicken where the terms are dictated by that zarya/genji/etc. Yes, and that's okay.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:02
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You are all jastiger tier with your balance ideas and whines, and presumably terrible at this game.
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Aug 23, 2016 16:03
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Maybe it's Sombra
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Aug 23, 2016 16:04
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