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Sort of the alternative to continuing the second world war until the western allies reached Moscow. Which, well, didn't work out super well the last time it was tried.
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Aug 24, 2016 12:40
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Kemper Boyd posted:I have a feeling that this changed sometime after the Battle of Nördlingen, more definitively not really around during the late stages of the war, as the armies started to become smaller and more cavalryish. It's very possible this was the case, our group concentrates on the early parts of the war (as there was pretty much nothing left of our regiment in the latter ones). Regiments forming brigades on the battlefield was a thing at Breitenfeld and Luetzen, but I don't know about the battles after that.
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Aug 24, 2016 13:10
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Hogge Wild posted:What do you call it then? Not fighting them over it?
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Aug 24, 2016 13:27
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Hogge Wild posted:What do you call it then? I'd argue there was precisely gently caress-all that could be done to stop them - so "letting them have it" is a weird Anglo-American centric version of the post war period. Oh it's ok, we let them have it, as opposed to the closer to reality "well, they took it and we can do nothing about it at all"
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Aug 24, 2016 13:34
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I apologise for poor choice of phrasing. In my defence I was specifically describing the mindset of the guys who wanted to go fight the Russians, not as a statement of my own views.
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Aug 24, 2016 13:45
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yeah as I understood it immediately after the fall of Germany the Soviets probably would have had little trouble rolling over the remainder of Western Europe had it come down to a conventional war
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Aug 24, 2016 14:10
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OwlFancier posted:The ammo for that is going to be real expensive because surely without guided rounds you're gonna run into accuracy limitations based more around the intervening atmosphere rather than any limitation of the gun. With conventional rounds it is actually quite a bit more accurate at the 777s max range and has about the same CEP at 70km as the 777 does at 35, something something muzzle velocity and RPM as it leaves the barrel (basically, the ballistics are a lot better which makes it more accurate), plus the met stuff isn't really any different for this than it is for rockets. That being said the rounds probably are going to be a big expense because the existing 155 rounds almost certainly can't be used due to the stresses they endure during firing, and the new rounds will have to have some manner of new stronger alloy in the casing. We don't know yet what round (or actually even what caliber) they're going to go with though. CoolCab posted:yeah as I understood it immediately after the fall of Germany the Soviets probably would have had little trouble rolling over the remainder of Western Europe had it come down to a conventional war I do not agree with this assessment
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Aug 24, 2016 14:27
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CoolCab posted:yeah as I understood it immediately after the fall of Germany the Soviets probably would have had little trouble rolling over the remainder of Western Europe had it come down to a conventional war This isn't some sort of August Storm situation. It would not have been pretty for the Soviets, either.
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Aug 24, 2016 14:29
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Would have been a big giant shitshow, but however it played out, it would have been politically and militarily, and probably economically, impossible for the Western Allies to contest the USSR's influence in Western Europe. No extension of the war is needed to see that there was bugger all that could be done about it, no matter how hard Churchill bleated.
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Aug 24, 2016 14:33
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lenoon posted:Would have been a big giant shitshow, but however it played out, it would have been politically and militarily, and probably economically, impossible for the Western Allies to contest the USSR's influence in Western Europe. No extension of the war is needed to see that there was bugger all that could be done about it, no matter how hard Churchill bleated. Any sort of Western Allies-USSR conflict circa 1945 ends with whatever was left standing in Germany being leveled and Moscow eating the first nuke available after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Aug 24, 2016 14:35
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to be clear: I am more then happy to be corrected, and further I do not endorse it as anything like a sane or reasonable idea as it self evidently was not. It was just my impression of the immediate post surrender balance of forces
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Aug 24, 2016 14:36
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It would have been quite a shocking experience for both sides, after getting used to beating a weak German army for the past year, to suddenly meet fresh tank divisions supported by intact air corps. Although Task Force Smith was still quite shocked in 1950 when Bazookas failed to penetrate T-34s from the rear and only 105mm howitzers firing HEAT (only six shells available to a battery) could hurt them. quote:When the tank column came over the crest of the road, the forward howitzer, commanded by Corporal Herman V. Critchfield, Chief of Section and 5 cannoneers, fired its HEAT rounds, damaging the first two tanks and setting one of them on fire. One of the crew members of the burning tank emerged with a PPSh-41 and killed a member of an American machine gun crew before being killed himself; the American became the first casualty of Korean War ground combat. That's like my every game of Combat Mission.
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Aug 24, 2016 14:42
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lenoon posted:Would have been a big giant shitshow, but however it played out, it would have been politically and militarily, and probably economically, impossible for the Western Allies to contest the USSR's influence in Western Europe. No extension of the war is needed to see that there was bugger all that could be done about it, no matter how hard Churchill bleated. To be fair even Churchill recognised that. I didn't mean to start this derail, I just wanted to point out how stupid it is that some people believe that the US would assassinate Patton. I'm so sorry.
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Aug 24, 2016 14:57
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Phrasing it as 'letting the Russians have half of Europe' implies a certain clarity about the implications of the long term trajectory of a whole bunch of countries that is really only available in hindsight. It was naive to trust the Russian assurances, but you can't really escalate distrust into "therefore we should fight a war because we don't think you are really putting Poland and East Germany on a pathway to eventual self-governance". It's not like a bunch of the Western Allies weren't also trying to hold on undemocratically to various territories in this period either.
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Aug 24, 2016 15:00
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Ataxerxes posted:It's very possible this was the case, our group concentrates on the early parts of the war (as there was pretty much nothing left of our regiment in the latter ones). Regiments forming brigades on the battlefield was a thing at Breitenfeld and Luetzen, but I don't know about the battles after that.
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Aug 24, 2016 15:12
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Stop piling on. He's already admitted he was wrong and clarified he was speaking from the perspective of certain mistrustful Western political figures, which is valid.
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Aug 24, 2016 15:18
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bewbies posted:With conventional rounds it is actually quite a bit more accurate at the 777s max range and has about the same CEP at 70km as the 777 does at 35, something something muzzle velocity and RPM as it leaves the barrel (basically, the ballistics are a lot better which makes it more accurate), plus the met stuff isn't really any different for this than it is for rockets. What do you do for a living? I love nerding out about artillery
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Aug 24, 2016 16:06
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Stop piling on. He's already admitted he was wrong and clarified he was speaking from the perspective of certain mistrustful Western political figures, which is valid. Is this piling on? Rather thought we were all just chipping in a few thoughts about it Yvonmukluk posted:To be fair even Churchill recognised that. No no not a derail at all, it's very interesting! The fact that Operation Unthinkable was drawn up and considered makes a chat about this perfectly valid to discuss. edit: Laughing at the "final position of armies" image from the Operation Unthinkable wikipedia entry. quote:When the odds were judged "fanciful", the original plan was abandoned.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:10
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I think it's encouraging that Churchill had someone quietly do the research and say "No, this scheme is completely hare brained." Thirty years younger he might have just walked in to a war council meeting and said "Everyone, I have a *great* idea."
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Aug 24, 2016 16:21
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P-Mack posted:I think it's encouraging that Churchill had someone quietly do the research and say "No, this scheme is completely hare brained." Thirty years younger he might have just walked in to a war council meeting and said "Everyone, I have a *great* idea." True growth! All military considerations aside, I can't imagine his premiership lasting after that (I mean, it didn't anyway). Probably even Attlee, too, some kind of coup led by Bevan and instituting some form of socialist-leaning communism in Britain pretty much immediately after the declaration of war.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:25
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P-Mack posted:I think it's encouraging that Churchill had someone quietly do the research and say "No, this scheme is completely hare brained." Thirty years younger he might have just walked in to a war council meeting and said "Everyone, I have a *great* idea." He did, it was called "Put me in charge of the Admiralty, I'll force open the Dardanelles and we'll make a landing at Gallipoli." FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Aug 24, 2016 |
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Aug 24, 2016 16:26
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lenoon posted:Is this piling on? Rather thought we were all just chipping in a few thoughts about it When you repeat arguments that have already been made, especially when the person you're arguing against has given up their position, that is piling on, yes.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:28
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lenoon posted:Laughing at the "final position of armies" image from the Operation Unthinkable wikipedia entry. You can't read too much in to that because Soviet divisions were smaller than American divisions, and there was no Corps structure in the Red Army. The Army in the Red Army was roughly equivalent to the Corps in the West; the Front would be analogous to a western Army. Roughly 4:1 manpower advantage in favor of the Soviets is probably enough to put it in the win column eventually but that's a lot of dead guys on both sides.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:32
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I feel like we've argued this scenario quite a bit but I've never seen any convincing evidence that either side would have gotten much further than where their final lines after Germany gave up. The Soviets would have had one hell of a time dealing with the allied air forces and keeping their guys fed and equipped though.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:38
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I'm of the opinion that if either side thought they had a decisive advantage at that point, they would have pressed it, justifications be damned. 
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Aug 24, 2016 16:41
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Meanwhile, I'm reading the memoirs of a Light Infantry private during the Napoleonic Wars. During a trip overseas to Denmark to attack and knock out an coastal Island town, half the regiment staying on board one of ships during this campaign sort of gets stuck. Like on the floor of the deck they were stationed. The ship was overhauled and oakum still was drying. Lots of ruined blankets all around.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:42
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(Quick, throw out something that has nothing to do with WWII so people will stop beating the Unthinkable horse!) So as a newcomer to the thread, would someone please explain to me what exactly the deal with windows is that seems to come up now and again when talking about early modern stuff? Something about shooting into windows? What's remarkable about this?
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Aug 24, 2016 16:42
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Gustable Adulous
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Aug 24, 2016 16:43
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Crazycryodude posted:(Quick, throw out something that has nothing to do with WWII so people will stop beating the Unthinkable horse!) So as a newcomer to the thread, would someone please explain to me what exactly the deal with windows is that seems to come up now and again when talking about early modern stuff? Something about shooting into windows? What's remarkable about this? Pikes out for Wallenstein.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:45
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Crazycryodude posted:(Quick, throw out something that has nothing to do with WWII so people will stop beating the Unthinkable horse!) So as a newcomer to the thread, would someone please explain to me what exactly the deal with windows is that seems to come up now and again when talking about early modern stuff? Something about shooting into windows? What's remarkable about this? If I remember right, one of the mercenaries Hey Gal studies had a habit of being drunk as gently caress and shooting a pistol out of the window before having dinner with his buddies. One day, the gun didn't fire. He tried to figure out what was wrong with the pistol while the muzzle was pointing at his best friend. Guess what happened next. That was just the start of that dude's recorded misadventures.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:48
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my dad posted:That was just the start of that dude's recorded misadventures. I need these. Are they hiding in the old thread somewhere?
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Aug 24, 2016 16:51
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Crazycryodude posted:(Quick, throw out something that has nothing to do with WWII so people will stop beating the Unthinkable horse!) So as a newcomer to the thread, would someone please explain to me what exactly the deal with windows is that seems to come up now and again when talking about early modern stuff? Something about shooting into windows? What's remarkable about this? Out of. And a breathtaking lack of concern with firearms is a primary characteristic of the period (although we've got examples of a guy on the eastern front and a plastered as gently caress torpedo bomber squadron commander emptying a pistol out the window and door respectively).
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Aug 24, 2016 16:51
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Crazycryodude posted:(Quick, throw out something that has nothing to do with WWII so people will stop beating the Unthinkable horse!) So as a newcomer to the thread, would someone please explain to me what exactly the deal with windows is that seems to come up now and again when talking about early modern stuff? Something about shooting into windows? What's remarkable about this? It was an anecdote about gun safety from one of HEY GAL's subjects that apparently struck a chord in the thread. EFB but I have link.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:51
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my dad posted:I'm of the opinion that if either side thought they had a decisive advantage at that point, they would have pressed it, justifications be damned. I'm with you.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:52
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these guys also throw dudes out of windows whenever they got mad, and wallenstein fell out a window once
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Aug 24, 2016 16:55
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Crazycryodude posted:(Quick, throw out something that has nothing to do with WWII so people will stop beating the Unthinkable horse!) So as a newcomer to the thread, would someone please explain to me what exactly the deal with windows is that seems to come up now and again when talking about early modern stuff? Something about shooting into windows? What's remarkable about this? People talked about shooting out of windows but really that's a small part of the contribution of windows to early modern culture. You might want to look up the word defenestration...
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Aug 24, 2016 16:59
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gustavus adolphus: *gestures to window* and piccolomini nearly threw wallenstein's corpse out the window after they killed him
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Aug 24, 2016 17:04
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FastestGunAlive posted:What do you do for a living? I love nerding out about artillery I write future warfare stuff, primarily. I'm generally pessimistic.
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Aug 24, 2016 17:16
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This is the period that brought you two defenestrations of Prague, both notable for starting a major holy war. Edit: Even better with the changed context.
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Aug 24, 2016 17:18
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My Latin teacher always got a kick out of the word defenestrate so now I always get a kick out of seeing it used. Famous defenestrations for 100 Alex?
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Aug 24, 2016 17:25
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