Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

«‹›849 »

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Who What Now posted:

You're really mixing your metaphors.

I'm an American, I can mix whatever the gently caress I want.

# ? Aug 25, 2016 04:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 17:57

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Greetings from Ohio

# ? Aug 25, 2016 04:53

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

Oh hi, Ohio! I like seeing videos from your Imagination Station on YouTube.

# ? Aug 25, 2016 04:56

Curvature of Earth: Sep 9, 2011; Projected cost of
invading Canada:
$900

Stinky_Pete posted:

The only black libertarian I know is wearing a suit in his facebook profile picture

Edit: yeah what Jeff said

The only two black libertarians I've stumbled across on Tumblr are also both Jewish, for double irony. (Here's one, if you're curious.)

# ? Aug 25, 2016 04:59

President Kucinich: Feb 21, 2003; Bitterly Clinging to my AK47 and Das Kapital

Ohio number one (in nanny state related drug overdoses).

# ? Aug 25, 2016 05:13

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Stinky_Pete posted:

Oh hi, Ohio! I like seeing videos from your Imagination Station on YouTube.

President Kucinich posted:

Ohio number one (in nanny state related drug overdoses).

Home of tyranny

# ? Aug 25, 2016 05:32

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

JustJeff88 posted:

There's a poster on this forum (but not in this thread) that I've always very much respected; he's a Dutchman by the name of Orange Devil. He said something once in a healthcare thread that always stuck with me. I paraphrase:

"Socialists (read: people who believe in equitable, non-exploitative economic systems) don't blindly love government. In fact, they are highly suspicious of government. They just know that it's the only possible thing that can protect people from the ravages of capitalism"

I'm constantly horrified that (stupid) people will actively go about trying to weaken or outright eliminate the one thing that is providing some thin, woefully insufficient protection from the capitalist system. Part of it is ignorance, part of it is the Steinback "disenfranchised millionaires" syndrome. I realise that a lot of people have been propagandised by media that is owned by huge corporations who just want to enrich themselves off of everyone's misery, but a lot of people are simply utter sociopaths and, even though they will never be in a position of power, they subconsciously would like to gently caress everyone over for their own benefit if they were and they would resent being stopped by a more powerful entity - the government. So, they vote and act in ways that are very much a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face.

I'm also constantly reminded of how far humanity is from evolving into any truly "progressive" economic system. I hate the word progressive, honestly, but I couldn't think of a better one. What capitalism does to so many is so blatant, horrible and obvious, but the mass consciousness is so far removed from better ideas that people don't even consider the possibility that the capitalist system itself is the problem. The oligarchs don't care because they only want to make as much money as possible and will do anything to do it, very economically conservative types think that everything would be grand if the government would stay out of it (Protip: It wouldn't), and even the mast majority of left-leaning people think that the system is fine, it just needs more regulation or a higher minimum wage or blah blah blah.

Frankly, I also sometimes think that human nature is just not compatible with egalitarianism in general. Alan Greenspan is a horrible person and the fact that he's still alive at 90 is proof that only the good die young, but he may have a point in saying that capitalism is human nature and we may as well just run with it. I don't agree, but I often wonder if humankind is simply not capable of better. Humans are vile, hateful selfish creatures and every positive step forward in social evolution, from the end of chattel slavery to the institution of government pensions and the like has had to be earned in tears from century upon century of misery, poverty and disenfranchisement that probably could have been avoided to a great degree if the collective conscience had a drop of decency in it.

I have to mostly agree with this. I had a brief, mild interest in revolutionary socialism due to D&D but there is not a single human being on earth who ever lived or ever will whom I would trust to administer a violent socialist revolution. I believe the struggle for equality is a long, slow, and most importantly eternal grind where true equality can never be reached, only approximated, and those who desire equality must be willing to engage in the long, hard, messy, glacially slow struggle and never let up, because reaction has the advantage of playing defense and will take advantage of the slightest laxity on the part of progressives. There won't be a revolution, there won't be a worker's state, there is only the eternal fight to wrest whatever we can from the wealthy and powerful, and before we can even get there we have to regain our resolve so we can stop losing the gains we've already made.

But it's also an oversimplification IMO to just call it "human nature", it's the intersection of human psychology with the highly unnatural state of being we call civilization, where we live in societies far too vast and complex for our natural faculties and intuitions to cope with, but we are eternally bound to, because there are now seven billion of us on planet Earth and without it we will have a horrific population overrun and probably die out.

(on a side note, I find the story of Adam and Eve a quite beautiful and meaningful allegory of the transition of humans from hunter-gatherers to civilization and the terrible price we paid, and that meaning is completely lost on all the people who believe it literally, especially Christians, who believe the Fall of Man can be undone through Jesus and miss the point even further)

Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Aug 25, 2016

# ? Aug 25, 2016 05:38

Grognan: Jan 23, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Just wait till you have a shot at changing things and it is defined as "being an adult" when you can cash out and sell the rest down the river for a house, career, and insulation from the ills that caused you to be concerned because that is how it seems to work.

# ? Aug 25, 2016 05:47

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

Cashing out owns bones

# ? Aug 25, 2016 05:58

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

Trying to remember what famous musician said something to the tune of: "People who whine about selling out never wondered how they were going to get enough food and gas to make it through tomorrow."

# ? Aug 25, 2016 07:12

Grognan: Jan 23, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Liquid Communism posted:

Trying to remember what famous musician said something to the tune of: "People who whine about selling out never wondered how they were going to get enough food and gas to make it through tomorrow."

If you have a total gross value above five digits US dollars, I am going to question what you have to say because you're probs just fine with what you have and how things run. I don't know it there is a definitive line where you decide not to have children because you could not provide for them but for my standard I am really below that line.

# ? Aug 25, 2016 07:54

Grognan: Jan 23, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Oh wait, I am lower income(poor). My opinion is negligible until I earn enough to contribute to political things regardless of other factors (like making money).

# ? Aug 25, 2016 07:56

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

President Kucinich posted:

Ohio number one (in nanny state related drug overdoses).

Toledo, Ohio was (is?) ranked third in the nation for human trafficking. It's also less than 30 minutes from where I grew up!

# ? Aug 25, 2016 12:36

JustJeff88: Jan 15, 2008; I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE

THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

of SA-Mart forever

Liquid Communism posted:

Trying to remember what famous musician said something to the tune of: "People who whine about selling out never wondered how they were going to get enough food and gas to make it through tomorrow."

Spoken by someone who almost certainly had so much money that they could have given away 90%+ of it and never known deprivation another day in his life. That's another reason that I despise human nature. Firstly, even if we could transition to a post-scarcity society (which has already happened in some areas), many people have a vested interest in stopping that because it takes away their power to immiserate and exploit. Secondly, even if we did/could, people would resent it because society will hate you for discriminating against anyone... unless it's economic discrimination, which is perfectly okay because people choose to be and enjoy being poor!

People use wealth to feel superior. Me having more money than you makes me better than you because me having more money makes... you get the idea. A lot of people very much do want to keep people down in order to feel superior to them, and I'm sure that in a post-scarcity society, even one with no money � la Star Trek, people would find ways to put themselves above others. People who, for example, make music that a lot of people like (don't forget the good fortune they have to live in an era where their work can be distributed very easily for almost no cost) couldn't content themselves with "I will have a happy life being admired and applauded and never want for anything"; they have to have the ludicrous mansion that's a waste of space and materials whose construction cost could feed hundreds of families for years.

# ? Aug 25, 2016 15:02

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

That is a bad analogy because the Internet and record company exploitation combine nowadays so that even quite popular musicians have to bust their asses just to barely scrape by.

# ? Aug 25, 2016 15:47

NLJP: Aug 26, 2004

This does remind me of one of the few good quotes by Russell Brand:

"When I was poor and complained about inequality they said I was bitter; now that I'm rich and I complain about inequality they say I'm a hypocrite. I'm beginning to think they just don't want to talk about inequality."

# ? Aug 25, 2016 15:51

archangelwar: Oct 28, 2004; Teaching Moments

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Actually another thing occurs to me; have you ever noticed that lolbertarians tend to be white as hell?

If memory serves Mississippi is pretty black. I can definitely understand a black person looking at libertarians and going "lol, nah." The whitest white to ever white probably hears Ron Paul saying "well we shouldn't ban discrimination at a federal level" and think "yeah what's the big deal, anyway?" while a non-white person in America is pretty much guaranteed to have experienced discrimination.

Yeah 28 years in Mississippi and I never met a black libertarian. I have met tons of gay white libertarians from the fringe south and mid Atlantic who believe strongly in LF economic policy as the cure for racial inequality but strong government involvement in equal marriage rights (HMMMMMMM).

# ? Aug 25, 2016 15:55

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

JustJeff88 posted:

Spoken by someone who almost certainly had so much money that they could have given away 90%+ of it and never known deprivation another day in his life. That's another reason that I despise human nature. Firstly, even if we could transition to a post-scarcity society (which has already happened in some areas), many people have a vested interest in stopping that because it takes away their power to immiserate and exploit. Secondly, even if we did/could, people would resent it because society will hate you for discriminating against anyone... unless it's economic discrimination, which is perfectly okay because people choose to be and enjoy being poor!

People use wealth to feel superior. Me having more money than you makes me better than you because me having more money makes... you get the idea. A lot of people very much do want to keep people down in order to feel superior to them, and I'm sure that in a post-scarcity society, even one with no money � la Star Trek, people would find ways to put themselves above others. People who, for example, make music that a lot of people like (don't forget the good fortune they have to live in an era where their work can be distributed very easily for almost no cost) couldn't content themselves with "I will have a happy life being admired and applauded and never want for anything"; they have to have the ludicrous mansion that's a waste of space and materials whose construction cost could feed hundreds of families for years.

You seem to be assuming some bad behaviors exhibited by some people under modern capitalism constitute the entirety of human nature. This is not the case.

Also by post-scarcity in some areas I hope you at least mean economic areas and not regional ones because otherwise :lol:

# ? Aug 25, 2016 21:07

Stinky Wizzleteats: Nov 26, 2015; Can't post for 19 hours!

So I'm not a Libertarian at all, but I did think of something that sounds jrodesque:

The FDIC is in theory a pretty cool bit of progressive bank tinkering to be sure. It was originally implemented to restore faith in banks after the great depression capstoned a century of devastating bank runs and has played a pretty big role in making the monstrously powerful and irresponsible financial entities we have today.

But could it actually be a piece of statist poo poo?

Consider that it did nothing to prevent the financial crisis other than calm the public with the assurance that they at least had 250k left in the event of a full unbailed out meltdownageddon.

Because the FDIC really only covers retail banking consumers it essentially exists only to help banks cope with fraud, which has never been an easier or more lucrative crime, and is only getting easier and easier, in part, because banks don't really have to give a gently caress. They can pay their dues, insure their customers, and fraud can be a magical illegal alchemists stone for anyone desperate enough to try it. Its probably a necessary evil but it is an incentive for fraud and I really wonder if their dues increase sensibly to account for their failures at preventing it. And all of this can be said the same for the massive fraud that perpetrated the 2008 collapse and its subsequent bail out, although we're supposed to be soothed by the fact that they pinky swore they wouldn't enable so much fraud that it wiped out all their equity.

So JRod would probably say the problem is that Federal is in the name and we first erred when we hoped to help someone other than ourselves (which we were because we're the ones not getting wiped out when the banks have an oopsy), and that by not being a cutthroat private insurance firm FDIC isn't a sleek and efficient capitalist killing machine making sure its turning at least some marginal profit by raising rates at a realistic pace keeping with accurate self interest created risk assessments.

But am I maybe onto something with FDIC playing a big role in why identity theft and other futuristic totally cool lolbertarian cyber punk crimes are more prevalent than ever? Maybe the kind of fraud I'm talking about is just too small beans, even in an ever increasing aggregate, to ever unseat a giant bank? In libertopia, would fraud alchemist be a noble and badass profession?

# ? Aug 26, 2016 17:43

Golbez: Oct 9, 2002; 1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine

Who What Now posted:

Toledo, Ohio was (is?) ranked third in the nation for human trafficking. It's also less than 30 minutes from where I grew up!

Ohio seems to have all the recent child rape/sex dungeon stories lately. I've come to calling it "America's Austria".

# ? Aug 26, 2016 17:45

White Coke: May 29, 2015

Golbez posted:

Ohio seems to have all the recent child rape/sex dungeon stories lately. I've come to calling it "America's Austria".

I thought that was Canada?

# ? Aug 26, 2016 19:36

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Stinky Wizzleteats posted:

So I'm not a Libertarian at all, but I did think of something that sounds jrodesque:

The FDIC is in theory a pretty cool bit of progressive bank tinkering to be sure. It was originally implemented to restore faith in banks after the great depression capstoned a century of devastating bank runs and has played a pretty big role in making the monstrously powerful and irresponsible financial entities we have today.

But could it actually be a piece of statist poo poo?

Consider that it did nothing to prevent the financial crisis other than calm the public with the assurance that they at least had 250k left in the event of a full unbailed out meltdownageddon.

Because the FDIC really only covers retail banking consumers it essentially exists only to help banks cope with fraud, which has never been an easier or more lucrative crime, and is only getting easier and easier, in part, because banks don't really have to give a gently caress. They can pay their dues, insure their customers, and fraud can be a magical illegal alchemists stone for anyone desperate enough to try it. Its probably a necessary evil but it is an incentive for fraud and I really wonder if their dues increase sensibly to account for their failures at preventing it. And all of this can be said the same for the massive fraud that perpetrated the 2008 collapse and its subsequent bail out, although we're supposed to be soothed by the fact that they pinky swore they wouldn't enable so much fraud that it wiped out all their equity.

So JRod would probably say the problem is that Federal is in the name and we first erred when we hoped to help someone other than ourselves (which we were because we're the ones not getting wiped out when the banks have an oopsy), and that by not being a cutthroat private insurance firm FDIC isn't a sleek and efficient capitalist killing machine making sure its turning at least some marginal profit by raising rates at a realistic pace keeping with accurate self interest created risk assessments.

But am I maybe onto something with FDIC playing a big role in why identity theft and other futuristic totally cool lolbertarian cyber punk crimes are more prevalent than ever? Maybe the kind of fraud I'm talking about is just too small beans, even in an ever increasing aggregate, to ever unseat a giant bank? In libertopia, would fraud alchemist be a noble and badass profession?

The FDIC is meant to prevent bank runs. If your bank account isn't insured, and there starts to be a risk that the bank might run out of money to cover deposits, you're faced with a prisoner's dilemma. You have to pull your money out to make sure you have it if everyone does, but everyone else has the same exact incentives, so the bank goes under. If you're insured you don't have that to worry about, so consumer bank runs just don't happen anymore.

But the thing is, that's all the FDIC is for. It's not a regulatory agency, it doesn't control fiscal policy, it just insures deposit accounts. Blaming them for the financial crisis makes as much sense as blaming the USDA.

As for it incentivizing fraud, how would it do that? The banks don't get the money. The executives don't get the money. Their customers get the money after the bank collapses.

# ? Aug 26, 2016 20:12

Stinky Wizzleteats: Nov 26, 2015; Can't post for 19 hours!

Doesn't the FDIC replenish your account in the event of someone stealing your credit card number and spending your money? My wrongness stems from ignorance, I'm playing a libertarian.

# ? Aug 26, 2016 20:21

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

I actually wasn't sure about that, so I looked it up:

FDIC posted:

What is Not Insured?

[...]

Robberies and Other Thefts

Stolen funds may be covered by what's called a banker's blanket bond, which is a multi-purpose insurance policy a bank purchases to protect itself from fire, flood, earthquake, robbery, defalcation, embezzlement and other causes of disappearing funds. In any event, an occurrence such as a fire or bank robbery may result in a loss to the bank but should not result in a loss to the bank's customers.

If a third party somehow gains access to your account and transacts business that you would not approve of, you must contact the bank and your local law enforcement authorities, who have jurisdiction over this type of wrongdoing.

# ? Aug 26, 2016 20:29

Stinky Wizzleteats: Nov 26, 2015; Can't post for 19 hours!

well there you go, I should have spent more time reading and less time making asinine assumptions, a lesson to every libertarian, ever.

# ? Aug 26, 2016 20:47

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Stinky Wizzleteats posted:

well there you go, I should have spent more time reading and less time making asinine assumptions, a lesson to every libertarian, ever.

No, self-awareness violates the NAP

# ? Aug 26, 2016 20:48

BUG JUG: Feb 17, 2005

Ohio loving blows.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 00:48

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Ohio violates the NAP.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 01:07

WrenP-Complete: Jul 27, 2012

I am from Ohio. It's like a banal dystopia.

Edit: but John Kasich is real, I think. I met him at some governor's event. (Probably implanted memories)

# ? Aug 27, 2016 01:18

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

BUG JUG posted:

Ohio loving blows.

Ohio is the only reason Michigan isn't the shittiest state in the Mid-West.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 01:25

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Who What Now posted:

Ohio is the only reason Michigan isn't the shittiest state in the Mid-West.

Yes let's argue over which lovely frozen hellscape is the worst

# ? Aug 27, 2016 02:49

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

It's all I have in life.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 03:12

Car Hater: May 7, 2007; wolf. bike.
Wolf. Bike.
Wolf! Bike!
WolfBike!
WolfBike!
ARROOOOOO!

Who What Now posted:

Ohio is the only reason Michigan isn't the shittiest state in the Mid-West.

Excuse you, we're not Indiana.

We are full of Libertarians though, hoo boy I need to get out of.the auto industry.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 04:22

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Lol gently caress I hate all three of those states

# ? Aug 27, 2016 09:18

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

Woolie Wool posted:

That is a bad analogy because the Internet and record company exploitation combine nowadays so that even quite popular musicians have to bust their asses just to barely scrape by.

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/katy-perry-net-worth/
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/adele-net-worth/
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/rihanna-net-worth/
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/taylor-swift-net-worth/

Even Redman is a millionaire:
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/richest-rappers/redman-net-worth/

# ? Aug 27, 2016 10:55

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

BUG JUG posted:

Ohio loving blows.

I've heard tell that among his fellow Ohioans, Jim Lovell is considered the most famous not for his heroics in saving Apollo 13, but rather that by orbiting to the far side of the moon he had gotten as far away from Ohio as it was possible for a human so far to do.

Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Aug 27, 2016

# ? Aug 27, 2016 16:29

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

Captain_Maclaine posted:

I've heard tell that among his fellow Ohioans, Jim Lovell is considered the most famous not for his heroics in saving Apollo 13, but rather that by orbiting to the far side of the moon he had gotten as far away from Ohio as it was possible for a human so far to so.

There's also a joke relating to the number of astronauts from Ohio. If memory serves more are from that state than anywhere else so obviously it sucks so much people really, really want to get off the planet to avoid it.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 16:34

CovfefeCatCafe: Apr 11, 2006; A fresh attitude
brewed daily!

ToxicSlurpee posted:

There's also a joke relating to the number of astronauts from Ohio. If memory serves more are from that state than anywhere else so obviously it sucks so much people really, really want to get off the planet to avoid it.

Half of my family is from Ohio. I spent 4 years there. I now live about half-way around the world from there. I'm pretty sure I'm going to stay on this island. And yet, I feel, I am not far away enough.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 16:39

Twerkteam Pizza: Sep 26, 2015; Grimey Drawer

Libertarian thread: gently caress Ohio

# ? Aug 27, 2016 17:01

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 17:57

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

I like ohio but I have severe anxiety and it's the only home i've ever known so take that with a huge grain of salt.

# ? Aug 27, 2016 17:11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

«‹›849 »