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Kalman posted:Cool, so we agree that her pay increase had very little to do with epipen price increases because most of Mylan's revenue stream comes from generic drugs? Ie from driving down drug costs? Actually their revenue increases were not from their own hard work in developing new drugs but from hostile takeover. Whoops try again gently caress face. poo poo it's like making a measles vaccine be 2500/dose.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:01
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foot posted:Man, if only BLM had put together a list of points, possibly ten of them, and released it to the public at any time during the past year. I think what Hillary is saying some of those 10 points are difficult to pin to national legislation (they are talking to a presidential candidate) and there needs to be work done on specific possible legislation that is concentrated on politically viable goals. It would be kinda difficult for the feds to try to start to vaguely make local police less aggressive while it might be possible to drive in hard on body cameras or putting specific limits on the equipment police can use. You aren't going to get national politicians to talk about how racist most of America is and so forth because of political ramifications, but her response was what would that do anyway? Give them a bland law that will actually help people and they can get politicians behind it. That is the other pillar of making changes along with advocacy and what getting national attention can help you do. She isn't telling them not to march or make demands of their local government, but when you have the ear of the president don't waste her time talking about the history of racism as it doesn't help anyone not get shot by the police. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I think Hillary's answer was interesting as previously mentioned for how clearly it communicated how she felt about it. There was none of the usual I dunno let me say something that gets you to vote for me but doesn't sound bad as a clip. As much as Hillary usually comes across as a political robot this was very illuminating for her world view and actually made me more optimistic about her presidency. FuzzySlippers fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Aug 25, 2016 06:03
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MSNBC has Glenn Beck on.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:21
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FuzzySlippers posted:I think what Hillary is saying some of those 10 points are difficult to pin to national legislation (they are talking to a presidential candidate) and there needs to be work done on specific possible legislation that is concentrated on politically viable goals. It would be kinda difficult for the feds to try to start to vaguely make local police less aggressive while it might be possible to drive in hard on body cameras or putting specific limits on the equipment police can use. I thought her response to the notion that "this is a white people problem, white peopld should fix it" was good. She pointed out that the logical conclusion to "don't ask us for advice," was that she would just have to ask white peoples how to solve black problems. Their accusation of victim blaming was bizarre as well. Her response was essentially sound, however. "I can't fix racism with the power of the presidency, but I can change laws and regulations. I just need to know from you, voters, what must change." BLM makes good points and is fundamentally right, but comparing and contrasting to the Civil Rights Movement and OWS is interesting. It lacks central, high profile leadership, coherency as a major movement and an overarching strategy, and I hope they find a way to begin organizing more effectively soon. I understand that it's tied to social media and it's easier to stay in smaller groups and cells, but angrily interrupting politicians in public makes for good soundbites, not good policy. She even points this out, with the notion that if their demand is simply that she end racism, they'll be waiting forever and talking to the next President in ten years. Specific policy and laws can make a difference and push society in the right direction, and people of color should be the loudest voices in the conversation that shapes them. Asking her to fix the problem because it lays with white people won't change anything. Edit: also, the for profit medical industry is literally the ultimate group of robber barons. The whole group of industries should be nationalized and all of their CEOs executed.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:23
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DemeaninDemon posted:Actually their revenue increases were not from their own hard work in developing new drugs but from hostile takeover. Whoops try again gently caress face. Yeah, they bought Merck's generics unit. So the gently caress what? It's still managing a larger entity with more revenue, more products, and more problems. Or do you think that if whatever company you work for somehow acquired Pfizer, your CEO wouldn't have a much more complicated job than they used to?
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Aug 25, 2016 06:23
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Eifert Posting posted:MSNBC has Glenn Beck on. Yeah. It was interesting to see. You've done hosed up when /Beck/ hates you and you're the GOP nominee.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:31
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Kalman posted:Yeah, they bought Merck's generics unit. So the gently caress what? It's still managing a larger entity with more revenue, more products, and more problems. Good job not addressing my point that absolutely nothing they did justified raising epipen price beyond sheer greed and lack of humanity.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:33
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DemeaninDemon posted:Good job not addressing my point that absolutely nothing they did justified raising epipen price beyond sheer greed and lack of humanity. *was* that your point? I thought you were bitching about her pay increases. I already said it was gouging. I also pointed out that to some extent the gouging appears partially justified based on the fact that, given the opportunity to compete, others failed, repeatedly, to make a better or even equivalent product.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:41
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iospace posted:Yeah. It was interesting to see. You've done hosed up when /Beck/ hates you and you're the GOP nominee. Beck is a conman/true believer and does concern trolling to appear moderate/the wise grown up every once in a while.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:43
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Lightning Knight posted:I thought her response to the notion that "this is a white people problem, white peopld should fix it" was good. She pointed out that the logical conclusion to "don't ask us for advice," was that she would just have to ask white peoples how to solve black problems. Their accusation of victim blaming was bizarre as well. Her response was essentially sound, however. "I can't fix racism with the power of the presidency, but I can change laws and regulations. I just need to know from you, voters, what must change." otoh, they have some more coherent ideas, somewhat better coordination, and they've lasted longer than Occupy by being a movement not dependent on camping in public parks. I think BLM will be remembered, 20, 30, 50 years from now to a far greater extent than Occupy. It helps that it's not a white hippie-driven movement. Every loving time there's a white hippie-driven movement, it tanks, because hippies are starry-eyed idealists that don't know pragmatism from astigmatism. All but the most woke BLM people could read that, and probably respect Clinton's position. BLM does need to pivot to making specific policy demands more of the time. The work of raising awareness is going pretty well, given how aggressively in denial white people are.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:45
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Kalman posted:*was* that your point? I thought you were bitching about her pay increases. Price gouging on vital lifesaving medication cannot be morally justified. What the gently caress is wrong with you?
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Aug 25, 2016 06:47
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FuzzySlippers posted:This is pretty good stuff and I think the link really does show some of the problems of the extreme left and the politically viable left. The kinds of things the activist want Hillary to say and agree to are political suicide despite how frustrating it can feel for an activist that politicians never say them. quote:Yeah, I’m not sure I agree with you. I’m not sure I disagree that any kind of government action often has consequences. And certainly, the war on drugs, which, you know, started back in the '80s—right?—has had consequences. Increasing penalties for crime and "three strikes and you're out" and all of those kinds of actions have had consequences. But it’s important to remember—and I certainly remember—that there was a very serious crime wave that was impacting primarily communities of color and poor people. And part of it was that there was just not enough attention paid. So you know, you could argue that people who were trying to address that—including my husband, when he was president—were responding to the very real concerns of people in the communities themselves. I'm reading this paragraph, and besides appreciating that amazing bolded nothing-sentence, I'm not seeing any real clarity on what she thinks here. Like, does she actually think 3 strikes laws and increasing penalties were a mistake? She literally only offers that "those kinds of actions have had consequences". That's an absurdly vague sentence, constructed to offer virtually no judgement and as little meaning as possible. Even if you look at an earlier slightly more coherent bit, it's still amazingly insubstantive: quote:Well, you know, I feel strongly, which is why I had this town hall today. And as, you know, the questions and the comments from people illustrated, there’s a lot of concern that we need to rethink and redo what we did in response to a different set of problems. And, you know, in life, in politics, in government—you name it—you’ve got to constantly be asking yourself, "Is this working? Is it not? And if it’s not, what do we do better?" And that’s what I’m trying to do now on drugs, on mass incarceration, on police behavior and criminal justice reform, because I do think that there was a different set of concerns back in the '80s and the early ’90s. And now I believe we have to look at the world as it is today and try to figure out what will work now. And that's what I’m trying to figure out. That’s what I intend to do as president. Like, this just reads like gobbledegook to me. "I'm going to look at the world, figure out what to do, and that's what I'm going to do as President?" That's a Trump-level answer. Also, again, she doesn't condemn past policies, she frames at as "rethinking and redoing what we did in response to a different set of problems." It's really hard not to get the impression that Hillary thinks the criminal justice reforms of the 90's were basically a reasonable response to a crisis, but now that that crisis has abated we need new policies. That's a pretty huge difference of opinion from BLM, and it feels like she's dancing around it to avoid having to say it outright. After reading the whole thing, I honestly feel worse about Clinton than I did before, and I was actually hoping for the opposite. Even for a politician, this is some pretty weak stuff. I've seen Rand Paul come down harder on 3 Strikes laws. Periodiko fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Aug 25, 2016 06:48
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Spatula City posted:otoh, they have some more coherent ideas, somewhat better coordination, and they've lasted longer than Occupy by being a movement not dependent on camping in public parks. I think BLM will be remembered, 20, 30, 50 years from now to a far greater extent than Occupy. It helps that it's not a white hippie-driven movement. Every loving time there's a white hippie-driven movement, it tanks, because hippies are starry-eyed idealists that don't know pragmatism from astigmatism. All but the most woke BLM people could read that, and probably respect Clinton's position. BLM does need to pivot to making specific policy demands more of the time. The work of raising awareness is going pretty well, given how aggressively in denial white people are. I agree with your assessment. I didn't watch the video, just read the transcript, and my takeaway is that Clinton wanted to make it crystal clear that BLM has her ear and to not gently caress up their shot at directly affecting policy.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:51
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Kalman do you have a background in pharmacy at all, even like just working as a tech?
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Aug 25, 2016 06:55
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Eifert Posting posted:MSNBC has Glenn Beck on. iospace posted:Yeah. It was interesting to see. You've done hosed up when /Beck/ hates you and you're the GOP nominee. After watching most of that interview, I've spend an unsmall amount of time wondering what that interview would have looked like if Keith Olbermann were still at MSNBC and it was taking place on Countdown, rather than the Last Word. Although O'Donnell did a good job by plugslamming Beck's book right off the bat and showing that Beck hasn't really changed his tune or moderated any in this new post-Trump singularity we're living in--he's still throwing around all his same rhetoric and meanginless political buzzwords as ever, he's just pissed that Trump is gonna keep the Republicans out of the White House for possibly another eight years again. Hell, that bit they opened with about Beck saying he was creeped out by one of the callers on his show today implying that they would hold a President Trump accountable via violence rings awfully hollow when you remember that Trump sic'd the Secret Service on Beck a few months ago after Beck mused on air about stabbing Trump if he ever got within arms reach of the man.
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Aug 25, 2016 07:00
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Beck is probably seriously mentally ill, is the thing. He has occasional moments of clarity, where he sounds lucid and well reasoned. and I'm not saying conservative pundits are crazy people, only, specifically Beck. During one of those lucid moments he realized Trump is a crazy person, and has held on to that now even through his prolonged manic episodes. iirc he had another moment of clarity recently and decided to not hate gay people anymore.
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Aug 25, 2016 07:11
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Kalman posted:I already said it was gouging. I also pointed out that to some extent the gouging appears partially justified based on the fact that, given the opportunity to compete, others failed, repeatedly, to make a better or even equivalent product. That would defend maintaining the current price rather than lowering it. It isn't an argument for increasing the price without another factor. The argument you seem to be not grasping is that a pharmaceutical company in the US has an inherent conflict of interest existing as both a for-profit corporation and a provider of lifesaving medical supplies.
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Aug 25, 2016 07:12
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Spatula City posted:otoh, they have some more coherent ideas, somewhat better coordination, and they've lasted longer than Occupy by being a movement not dependent on camping in public parks. I think BLM will be remembered, 20, 30, 50 years from now to a far greater extent than Occupy. It helps that it's not a white hippie-driven movement. Every loving time there's a white hippie-driven movement, it tanks, because hippies are starry-eyed idealists that don't know pragmatism from astigmatism. All but the most woke BLM people could read that, and probably respect Clinton's position. BLM does need to pivot to making specific policy demands more of the time. The work of raising awareness is going pretty well, given how aggressively in denial white people are. Yeah, I didn't mean to say that they're the same level of incompetency as OWS was with regards to their ability to actually affect change. I was saying they should move into the direction of being a more formal movement with effective organization and leadership so they can lobby for meaningful policy reform. Their rhetoric is powerful and largely correct, but now is the time to translate that into changes at the level of government policy. We can't make white people not racist, but we can work to strip down the institutional power behind that racism, slowly over time. Periodiko posted:I'm reading this paragraph, and besides appreciating that amazing bolded nothing-sentence, I'm not seeing any real clarity on what she thinks here. Like, does she actually think 3 strikes laws and increasing penalties were a mistake? She literally only offers that "those kinds of actions have had consequences". That's an absurdly vague sentence, constructed to offer virtually no judgement and as little meaning as possible. They aren't good answers, but in fairness to her she was confronted by a bunch of people who basically said, you're racist and your legacy of the '90s was bad. While they are largely correct on substance, I can understand her being flustered. And like I said, her strongest asset for winning at least some of the white vote is appealing to Bill's legacy. She's running on a platform completely counter to what BLM is criticizing, and clearly is sympathetic to them. But she needs to win at least some white voters, and she does that by tapping into the feel good policies they liked from Bill, even if they're too uninformed to know she's going to dismantle that, or try to, as President. Most white people don't understand the nuance of Bill's third way Democrat versus Hillary's modern progressivism. It's all got a D next to its name to them. If she comes out and explicitly says the legacy of the '90s is bad it destroys the whole facade. The most important part of her statement was when she straight up said, I can change policy, not people's minds. Tell me what you need, what the black community needs. I'm a white person and I need to hear from black people what they want, and I will try to do it. That's what we need. What she once did is less important than what she will do, and what she's offering to do is what they want to do. That's fundamentally a BLM victory.
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Aug 25, 2016 07:21
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Kalman posted:Yeah, they bought Merck's generics unit. So the gently caress what? It's still managing a larger entity with more revenue, more products, and more problems. They could end up with a real simple job instead. Eh?
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Aug 25, 2016 07:38
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Lightning Knight posted:The most important part of her statement was when she straight up said, I can change policy, not people's minds. Tell me what you need, what the black community needs. I'm a white person and I need to hear from black people what they want, and I will try to do it. That's what we need. What she once did is less important than what she will do, and what she's offering to do is what they want to do. That's fundamentally a BLM victory. Yep and debating the 90s is not good politics. Part of her philosophy I was reading here is she cares little for cultural or social abstracts. She thinks in laws and economics and she undermines her ability to change those by going around giving her opponents political ammunition when it does no one any good. It distresses the activists because they want to know for sure she does share their concerns, but there are political realities a national politician has to balance. Like that comedian after the Orlando shooting who tore into GOP politicians for always giving their tweets and prayers while voting against anything that prevents violence Hillary is saying gently caress whether I say things you like, debating my 20 year old politics, or trying to determine if I'm secretly racist let's get some legislation I can push through.
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Aug 25, 2016 07:46
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Subvisual Haze posted:I've been to a couple educational conferences about this specific topic in the last couple years. Almost every one has reached the same conclusion regarding why drug prices have gone sky-high: "Because they can".
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Aug 25, 2016 07:47
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Hillary Clinton loves to compromise. She is the compromiser in chief. Body cameras are the compromise position and BLM shall receive nothing more during her term.
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Aug 25, 2016 08:20
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Metal wolf Chaos was a documentary. Does this mean Kaine is Richard Hawk?
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Aug 25, 2016 09:01
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Argas posted:Does this mean Kaine is Richard Hawk? Oh god yes, but only if Huma Abedin gets to be Jody.
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Aug 25, 2016 09:10
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Kalman posted:(Also, monopolies generated by a better product aren't a problem, they're a reflection of consumer desire. There's a reason the US doesn't make monopolies illegal - it makes abuse of monopoly power illegal.) No it doesn't. We have a free market healthcare system. They, and the hospitals, do fuckall about being competitive because they can get away with it. The sad thing about the epipen outrage is that it's just the tip of the iceberg if you're actually interested in how the American healthcare industry fucks over the average consumer; or rather, the person who needs a specific product because otherwise they die. Spatula City posted:otoh, they have some more coherent ideas, somewhat better coordination, and they've lasted longer than Occupy by being a movement not dependent on camping in public parks. I think BLM will be remembered, 20, 30, 50 years from now to a far greater extent than Occupy. It helps that it's not a white hippie-driven movement. Every loving time there's a white hippie-driven movement, it tanks, because hippies are starry-eyed idealists that don't know pragmatism from astigmatism. All but the most woke BLM people could read that, and probably respect Clinton's position. BLM does need to pivot to making specific policy demands more of the time. The work of raising awareness is going pretty well, given how aggressively in denial white people are.
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Aug 25, 2016 09:39
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Kalman posted:*was* that your point? I thought you were bitching about her pay increases.
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Aug 25, 2016 10:22
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If the poor are worth more rendered down into animal fat and lampshades, who am I to stand in the way of profit.
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Aug 25, 2016 10:32
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Kalman posted:I already said it was gouging. I also pointed out that to some extent the gouging appears partially justified based on the fact that, given the opportunity to compete, others failed, repeatedly, to make a better or even equivalent product. gently caress that bullshit. Medicine should not be treated like some bullshit corporate business. What 'justifies' making something necessary for people to live more inaccessible ?
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Aug 25, 2016 10:55
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Noted Hillary supporter, to the surprise of absolutely no one, has some conservative views on healthcare
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Aug 25, 2016 11:09
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DreamingofRoses posted:gently caress that bullshit. Medicine should not be treated like some bullshit corporate business. What 'justifies' making something necessary for people to live more inaccessible ? When you make an argument that causes you to sound like a Robocop villain, maybe you need to step back a bit.
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Aug 25, 2016 11:34
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DreamingofRoses posted:gently caress that bullshit. Medicine should not be treated like some bullshit corporate business. What 'justifies' making something necessary for people to live more inaccessible ? The fact that our government is sufficiently dysfunctional that it couldn't coordinate public funding of pharmaceutical research in exchange for rigid cost controls on any drugs benefiting from that research. We're stuck with a system where the only way to get more drugs is with perverse profit incentives and that's why we have a hilariously large amount of competition in the boner pill and hair loss markets.
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Aug 25, 2016 11:59
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So...what did Wikileaks publish?
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Aug 25, 2016 12:04
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Cthulhumatic posted:So...what did Wikileaks publish? 
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Aug 25, 2016 12:15
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Guys, guys, monopolies add more 'value' to society.
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Aug 25, 2016 12:35
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Cthulhumatic posted:So...what did Wikileaks publish? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
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Aug 25, 2016 12:38
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 E Pluribus Awesome! 
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Aug 25, 2016 12:42
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Kalman posted:
this right here is why market impulses are a terrible way to distribute resources like medical care.
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Aug 25, 2016 13:02
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"I mean, if companies want to charge 3 times as much to 1/2 the customers, more power too them" -Jesus, probably "wait, this is for medicine? What the gently caress is wrong with you?" -Jesus, probably right after the first quote
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Aug 25, 2016 13:07
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Drug prices are regulated in Canada at the federal level, a quick search informs me epi-pen prices have not risen here since 2009 or something. Another site said 2012. Recall that the power to do this in the US was stripped out from the Medicare drug plan, no?
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Aug 25, 2016 13:13
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LeeMajors posted:
I love how Ann "Ann loving Coulter" Coulter keeps the "from many" bit of her bullshit made up slogan in a book decrying immigration.
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Aug 25, 2016 13:18
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