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Just because lgbt people enjoy it does not mean it isn't framed and built for straight men. Accidentally appealing to a demographic happens all the time.
CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Aug 25, 2016 05:08
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I'm a bi girl and I don't like Harley/Ivy for a variety of reasons. 
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Aug 25, 2016 05:11
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Well you aren't a hivemind.
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Aug 25, 2016 05:12
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Yeah, I was talking to KittyEmpress.
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Aug 25, 2016 05:16
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CharlestheHammer posted:Just because lgbt people enjoy it does not mean it isn't framed and built for straight men. Accidentally appealing to a demographic all the time. Exactly.
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Aug 25, 2016 05:36
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Yeah it's pretty ignorant bordering on outright disingenuous to claim that Harley Quinn, especially New 52 Harley Quinn, especially a good half-to-two-thirds of the panels where the Ivy/Harley relationship is portrayed isn't the most male gaze-y, pandering bullshit ever. And, as I mentioned before, Ivy/Harley is a great relationship that makes complete sense on paper (especially since they're two kind of irredeemably awful yet sympathetic characters who are defined, in their best versions, by overcoming abuse at the hands of a dominant male abuser and taking ownership of their bodies and by extension their sexualities) that DC DC's the gently caress up by spinning what should be one of their better lgbt relationships into "Yeah boys two ladies kissin' and fuckin' gently caress yeah! *wolf howl*" Again, it's DC desperately doubling down on who they think is the only people buying their comics, thereby proving themselves correct, over actually trying to appeal to a wider demographic. You saw it with Batwoman's erasure, you saw it with eliminating Oracle while keeping TKJ with N52 Batgirl, and you see it with the way the Harley/Ivy romantic relationship is written - hot lesbians because that's "acceptable" gayness to straight white twenty-year-old men, not because it makes sense that both characters would be dating each other.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:53
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In that context, what's the general opinion of the old Harley & Ivy series? Given it was the series that all but made the subtext text.
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Aug 26, 2016 06:43
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CharlestheHammer posted:Well you aren't a hivemind. There is an insect like quality to most of Wickedhate's posts, not necessarily hivemind, but definitely not human.
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Aug 26, 2016 06:50
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Man, that just hurt. 
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Aug 26, 2016 06:51
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Alien Rope Burn posted:In that context, what's the general opinion of the old Harley & Ivy series? Given it was the series that all but made the subtext text. It's fun if you don't mind a very high amount of cheesecake and a very dated gay joke.
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Aug 26, 2016 06:58
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Alien Rope Burn posted:In that context, what's the general opinion of the old Harley & Ivy series? Given it was the series that all but made the subtext text. It is fun.
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Aug 26, 2016 11:58
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WickedHate posted:Man, that just hurt. Much like your posting
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Aug 26, 2016 12:45
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What are the DC equivalents of organisations like Hydra and A.I.M.?
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Aug 26, 2016 17:32
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Ultragonk posted:What are the DC equivalents of organisations like Hydra and A.I.M.? KOBRA is the biggest one.
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Aug 26, 2016 17:34
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Spyral and Leviathan, but those are pretty recent creations.
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Aug 26, 2016 17:40
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Weirdly, DC has more benevolent-seemingly benevolent secret organizations.
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Aug 26, 2016 17:42
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Cheers, are they often used? Hydra and AIM seem to get good runs out. I haven't read near enough DC stuff.
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Aug 26, 2016 17:49
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Ultragonk posted:Cheers, are they often used? Hydra and AIM seem to get good runs out. I haven't read near enough DC stuff. Kobra is seen as more of the antagonists of the Suicide Squad, who are their own secret organisation (Task Force X).
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Aug 26, 2016 17:54
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Does anyone have a link to the binding thread? Working on a project
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Aug 26, 2016 18:38
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DC has a handful of cultish conspiracies on the one hand, like the League of Assassins or the Court of Owls; and on the other hand, a bunch of semi-sinister government types, like the DEO, Task Force X, and Checkmate. Like others have said, the closest they have to an evil '80s villain organization is Kobra, which isn't a perfect match to AIM/Hydra, but is close enough. They're comparatively minor league, but there you go.
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Aug 26, 2016 18:55
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Retro Futurist posted:Does anyone have a link to the binding thread? Working on a project Here ya go! Haha, get it?
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Aug 26, 2016 19:03
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WickedHate posted:Here ya go! That's a separate project all together
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Aug 26, 2016 19:10
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Retro Futurist posted:That's a separate project all together That's a separate project
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Aug 26, 2016 19:18
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Endless Mike posted:That's a separate project  ...I hate all of you so much
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Aug 26, 2016 19:24
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DC also has Intergang which was mostly just the Mafia but backed by Apokolips for a long time, but recently they've turned into a religion that worships crime via their holy text which is called, and this name is straight from the comics, The Crime Bible.
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Aug 26, 2016 19:42
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Retro Futurist posted:Does anyone have a link to the binding thread? Working on a project
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Aug 26, 2016 19:51
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redbackground posted:There isn't one. I mean, there's the catch-all hardcover/collection thread, but you'll honestly get more help specifically about binding at the Marvel Masterworks forum. Good luck! Now that I think about it I thought it was you who made it. Was it maybe just a megapost somewhere else?
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Aug 26, 2016 19:57
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Retro Futurist posted:Now that I think about it I thought it was you who made it. Was it maybe just a megapost somewhere else?
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Aug 26, 2016 20:09
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In regards to that Harley/Ivy thing, I think ya'll are being really unfair here. Nobody here gets to speak for all LGBT people. You guys said it yourself that there's no hivemind. But dismissing that some bi girls liked their representation as a fluke is pretty disingenuous. The dynamic of their relationship is fine, it just needs more context. DC needs to show different types of lesbian relationships to prove that they don't think all lesbians act like Harley and Ivy. I'd point to Kate and Maggie as a perfect example but DC hosed that up and caused the good creative team to leave, which is the actual evidence of them doing something wrong. I don't think DC is anti-gay or anything, I just think they have trouble showing more than one kind of relationship. That seems more their problem. The new Superman seems to be changing my opinion on even that, though.
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Aug 26, 2016 20:14
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Mover posted:DC also has Intergang which was mostly just the Mafia but backed by Apokolips for a long time, but recently they've turned into a religion that worships crime via their holy text which is called, and this name is straight from the comics, The Crime Bible. Also Vandal Savage is their messiah.
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Aug 26, 2016 20:18
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Xinder posted:In regards to that Harley/Ivy thing, I think ya'll are being really unfair here. Nobody here gets to speak for all LGBT people. You guys said it yourself that there's no hivemind. But dismissing that some bi girls liked their representation as a fluke is pretty disingenuous. Nobody's dismissing any opinions. But it's a fact, an absolute, stone-cold unequivocal fact that a large majority of the time Harley/Ivy is written from a straight male perspective where their relationship is boiled down to "hot white girls having sex" in an extremely leering way. It's basically the definition of the term "male gaze". If you're a bi or gay woman and enjoy that poo poo, whatever, but it doesn't make the criticism invalid that the perspective with which DC approaches Harley/Ivy is this voyeuristic bordering on perverted outlook that objectifies the characters. You can like or not like it all you want, but it doesn't make it untrue that DC writes the relationship most of the time as fetish material. Specifically, fetish material for straight twentysomething men, which runs totally and completely in line with the vast, vast majority of the stories that DC has written and the demographic it is trying to appeal to and especially when it applies to Harley Quinn, especially post-Flashpoint Harley Quinn. Nobody's speaking for LGBT people. In fact, the whole focus is on the creative failures DC is making with how they write relationships, specifically lesbian relationships, and not on trying to speak for a community we're not a part of. If you're a gay woman and love Harley/Ivy, awesome, but it's not a relationship being written for you. It's absolutely a relationship being written for the people who love it when Joker smacks Harley around like a rented mule, the people who think TKJ and its sexualized violence is super hot and Joker's mega badass, the people who think how Harley is portrayed in the Arkham games is anything but deeply, deeply embarrassing. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 20:36
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redbackground posted:There's this but it died back in 2012. Yes! Thank you.
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Aug 26, 2016 20:48
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Rhyno posted:KOBRA is the biggest one. Kobra is also the lamest loving evil organization in all of comics.
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Aug 26, 2016 21:24
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Lurdiak posted:Kobra is also the lamest loving evil organization in all of comics. Hey, Kobra rules. Now Kobra-la, those guys are lame.
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Aug 26, 2016 21:26
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Are there Thor runs before Simonson that are worth reading? My experience with Iron Man v1 leads me to believe that there are far more worthy runs to check out than most Best Of lists will have you believe and I'm guessing it's probably the same with Thor. I read a fair bit of the (original) JiM run back in the day so I know one answer to my question is probably "Kirby" but are there others?
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Aug 26, 2016 21:43
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Re: H/I: No one is wrong for feeling empowered by, represented by, or even fond of the relationship, or specific depictions thereof, from a queer perspective. Feelings don't work like that—you can't invalidate them with applied reason. A woman isn't wrong for enjoying high heels or w/e. But you can critically engage with the motivations apparent in the creation of a work/idea, and say that those are terrible. High heels are fashionable because of some male gaze poo poo, and that's bad. But if you like them as a woman, that's still good. Input (patriarchy) and output (lady feeling  ) can have different ethical character.What you should do, imo, is ask how we can move toward a culture that produces more empowering, pleasing outputs with less problematic poo poo underpinning it. No one worth listening to wants to eliminate positive representation, and at the same time—correct me if I'm wrong here—no one in the queer spectrum would object loudly if the representation came from a place of sincere positive intention instead of straight guy titillation.
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Aug 26, 2016 21:48
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Squizzle posted:Re: H/I: Unlike the other response to me, this one actually read what I wrote and responded in a way that I don't feel I'm wasting my time. Thank you for that. I think the big problem is that people backlash against overt sexualization as an inherently immature thing since it's so often erroneously labeled as a mature thing. But the truth is that sexuality is neither mature nor immature by its own virtue, and it's the execution and context that matters. In the instance of that page that was posted, I honestly don't think the problem is as bad as people are saying. The problem only exists in that is DC's only portrayal of a lesbian romance right now (or at least their only high profile one). Given context with other types of lesbian relationships there's no problem at all. That just becomes "one couple's dynamic" instead of "how all lesbians act". e: I also want to point out that anybody who calls bisexuality fetishistic is pretty gross to me. Don't belittle a group already facing erasure even from other LGBT peoples. That's hosed up.
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Aug 26, 2016 22:21
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Xinder posted:
Nobody has called bisexuality fetishistic. Xinder posted:I think the big problem is that people backlash against overt sexualization as an inherently immature thing since it's so often erroneously labeled as a mature thing. No, we're backlashing against DC for being a bunch of 13-year-old boys about sexualization for literally this entire century. From Identity Crisis to what TKJ film pulled with Barbara Gordon re: Batman literally barely a month ago, they have a history of being the most infantile, prurient, and just plain gross company when it comes to sex in comics or comics-related media, and they deserve absolutely zero slack. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 22:37
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Bisexuality can certainly be portrayed in a fetishistic way.
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Aug 26, 2016 22:40
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Lurdiak posted:Bisexuality can certainly be portrayed in a fetishistic way. Yes, this is the point. Nobody here thinks bi people are a fetish, but DC is absolutely marketing Ivy/Harley as a couple primarily to, again, straight young twentysomething men to whom bi people, specifically hot bi women, absolutely are.
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Aug 26, 2016 22:42
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