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citybeatnik posted:gently caress, that's how WW got its start, really. Wanting to play all the loser and rejects and the people ignored. Thing is, those teased and bullied goths and drama fans are now mostly 30/40-somethings, doing mostly well for themselves. To them, Vampire wasn't about playing the losers and rejects and ignored people - it was about playing how they viewed themselves, but now with all the power. It's why Vampire so very quickly became little more then "supers with fangs."
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Aug 17, 2016 15:05
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gourdcaptain posted:And now the thread has vanished into the aether. Where it will be duly reviewed by your racist Sons of Ether Grandpa.
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Aug 17, 2016 18:26
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ProfessorCirno posted:Thing is, those teased and bullied goths and drama fans are now mostly 30/40-somethings, doing mostly well for themselves. To them, Vampire wasn't about playing the losers and rejects and ignored people - it was about playing how they viewed themselves, but now with all the power. It's why Vampire so very quickly became little more then "supers with fangs." This is kind of a writing danger baked into the setting with games like Vampire and Mage for both White Wolf and GMs. It's very easy to fall into a trap where acquiring a supernatural template is entirely about becoming one of the secret masters of the world and seeing the secret lines connecting everything and not about the horror of losing your humanity and either turning into a rabid nocturnal animal or opening doors that can never be closed and dooming the universe. It's a hard setting to get right, especially in OWoD.
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Aug 17, 2016 19:43
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Scion 2e Kickstarter announced for the end of August or beginning of September.
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Aug 22, 2016 23:50
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Mors Rattus posted:Scion 2e Kickstarter announced for the end of August or beginning of September. Gonna get in on this, I really liked that game line.
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Aug 23, 2016 00:39
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It's that time again. The usual caveats to the counts apply. All that's left is the End Times, some old novels, a few rereads for stuff that got missed or co̸r̵r̀u̵p͞ęd̡ ͢b͜y͢ Vi̢rt͡u̡al͝ A͝d͟ept̡s, and then the reboots which are a problem as the project may not really have an 'end' date with the continuing success of V20 and 4th edition coming out. To bring you this information, I had to read over 6200 pages of text, some good, some awful. As usual, none of this is especially representative of anything but growth year to year, though they can give some small idea of how many of each creature there are. Vampire: 14634 entries, up from 12889. With VTES, it's 15793, up from 13665. 1745 new entries, a great many of which are multiple entities. A particularly good example is one that includes a couple of thousand Sabbat in a single line. Werewolf: 7022 entries, up from 5879. Mage: 5745, up from 4883. Spirits: 5180, up from 4744. It's higher than it sounds as many entries are from Orpheus and refer to large groups. Also, how good was Orpheus? So good. General entries: The usual definition ' Corporations, products, non-imbued hunters, etc.' 2425 entries, up from 2011. Not as big a year as 2002, though much bigger in terms of impact on the world with the Orpheus supplements. Fae: A whole one fairy growth! 1883 from 1882. 2004 is where there'll be some growth with DA:Fae, followed by a solid 12-13 year gap in growth until C20. Hunter: 1229, up from 1130. Only three supplements for Hunter were released in 2003. There's a problem though - the XBox Hunter games are inaccessible to me. If anyone knows of a good, comprehensive LP that skips nothing at all, let me know. I'll watch the whole drat thing if need be. Demon: 897, up from 2003's 153. 744 new entries, many of which refer to multiple entities, so a pretty solid showing. Sadly, Demon more or less 'ends' here, with only a couple of supplements in 2004. As it was my favourite line of the cWoD, I always felt disappointed at how little chance it really had. All in all, a big year in terms of books, but weaker than 2002 in terms of growth across the board. If people want to see it there's also very rough demographic info, but as that's even rougher than these counts and of limited appeal I'm holding off on posting it for now.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:35
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As someone who was really jazzed about KotE and the year of the East books in general I'm kind of sad that they're unlikely to see a KotE20 edition. Looking at it now I realize that I was one of those aforementioned tourist players because I never really cared to know more about the whole unknowable east beyond the books and as a sterotypical CIS White Hetro Male Gamer of the 90s I realize that what worked then won't work now for me. And short of a total reimagining of the whole setting anything put out know will likely not be well received in 2016. Are there good RPGs or books that tackle the Middle Kingdom and especially the SE Asian supernatural setting?
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Aug 23, 2016 23:30
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Actually, KotE20 is apparently something being discussed right now, but yeah, it needs a ton of work to not be awful racist bullshit. If you want mythic kung fu China, check out Legends of the Wulin. Feng Shui/Feng Shui 2 are decent for Hong Kong action (modern or historic). Southeast Asia hasn't shown up in too many good games I can name off the top of my head. E: I've also heard Qin is good for gritty political ancient China but can't speak from experience. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 23:32
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Mors Rattus posted:Actually, KotE20 is apparently something being discussed right now, but yeah, it needs a ton of work to not be awful racist bullshit. Go in hard on Chinese Ghost Story stretching necks and firebreath, not so much on the special souls of Asian people and how your average person hanging around Shanghai believes in vampires so the masquerade isn't necessary and how they all have magical luck bullshit. Like it's fine to be all "there are still some genuine mystics around" but "Obviously Ping, a garbage man, believes in vampires because he lives in China" is pretty weird man It's like they saw Big Trouble and thought it was a documentary. And that Egg Shen was an average guy instead of a wizard. Feng Shui is a good example of how to do that properly (as well as being Big Trouble the RPG, as much as I think the movie is basically a well-done D&D campaign) Also the east vs west bullshit, while I guess one way to underline how out of touch and attached to old conflicts vampires are, is pretty played out and basically offensive at this point. Not to mention a gross oversimplification of history. You might as well just screen Rising Sun or do a public reading of the Chrysanthemum and the Sword. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Aug 24, 2016 |
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Aug 24, 2016 01:00
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Lightning Lord posted:Also the east vs west bullshit, while I guess one way to underline how out of touch and attached to old conflicts vampires are, is pretty played out and basically offensive at this point. Not to mention a gross oversimplification of history. You might as well just screen Rising Sun or do a public reading of the Chrysanthemum and the Sword. I always felt trying to add some interesting dynamics by having more nuanced historical backgrounds was an opportunity lost for the oWoD. They tried to do some of it here and there, but the need to try to make some sort of unified larger scale "faction" hampered it quite a bit. Having vampires (east or west) coming from vastly different ideological periods should lead to some really wacky and interesting political bedfellows when they're all having to interact together.
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Aug 24, 2016 15:20
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Dark Ages did that quite well. Not only did they go all in with national and regional divides, but you had the consequences of old roman vampires, einherjar, pre-muslim arab vampires, ashirra... Then add in their wholehearted embracing of small-b bloodlines, like the bashirite ravnos and the michaelite toreador. Good stuff.
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Aug 24, 2016 17:02
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Loomer posted:Dark Ages did that quite well. Not only did they go all in with national and regional divides, but you had the consequences of old roman vampires, einherjar, pre-muslim arab vampires, ashirra... Then add in their wholehearted embracing of small-b bloodlines, like the bashirite ravnos and the michaelite toreador. Good stuff. Yeah, I should have mentioned that as the exception. The DA writers overall seemed to love history, and really liked playing up some of the unique flavor of it. It really helped the line feel distinct from modern WoD.
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Aug 24, 2016 17:53
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Here's a fun coincidence. There's a gem called the gem of golconda - a massive diamond from India that helps propel a vampire to enlightenment and makes them need to feed only once a week. There is also the gem of Vassago, a massive diamond mined and cut in Golconda, India that is the body of that particular Earthbound, which he had further cut down and distributed across the world. Hmm...
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Aug 25, 2016 03:31
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I'm probably going to regret this but, what is an earth bound?
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Aug 25, 2016 05:30
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oDemon thing, it was a demon bound inside an object. IIRC they were all villains for Reasons.
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Aug 25, 2016 05:31
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Mors Rattus posted:oDemon thing, it was a demon bound inside an object. IIRC they were all villains for Reasons. It was a couple of demons who were able to escape the Abyss thousands of years before the others for Reasons and were bound inside objects, then hung around for said millennia becoming very powerful and also quite mad.
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Aug 25, 2016 05:39
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Soonmot posted:I'm probably going to regret this but, what is an earth bound? Earthbound are demons who were summoned out of the Abyss between 2300BC (or so, using Sargon's reign as a dating measure as no preicse year was defined in the books but one was bound into a tree in Sargon's palace) and the 1600s. Essentially, they are demons who are stuck in specific locations or in objects - idols, altars, temples, etc. Usually they tended towards the stronger demons, so part of the reason why they wound up in such shells is because the human being as a default cannot serve as a host for very long for anything but the smallest and meanest of demons. They're Crazy As poo poo, power-obsessed, and war among themselves and with non-Earthbound demons who return post-1999. Crazy as poo poo is largely due to them being isolated for thousands of years, but there's also some self-selection going on - the first five were the archdukes, who already went mad as poo poo during the rebellion, and they provided most of the names for those who came after them. In the process they picked their most slavishly devoted, fearsome, brutal servants, not those who adhered closer to Lucifer's more-or-less benevolent ideal. So basically, they're what happens when five power-mad lunatic-tyrants select the worst of the worst of a prison full of miscreants, serial killers, psychopaths and outright monsters, then lock them in isolation for several thousand years. On the gem of golconda, I don't know that any tie-in is intended, but it works beautifully. Saulot travelled East and learned the way of Golconda, purportedly from the Cathayans. He returns to preach Golconda, and oh look, suddenly there's the Baali right after he pops on back to the Middle East - travel which necessarily takes you through India at the time, where Vassago was strongest and had his Gems from Golconda floating about. The only problem with that is the timing doesn't match up if the Sargonic Dating is adhered to (though it is possible Abbadon came about later than the others) as there are Baali noted as far back as the First City (the same one sets a tentative date for the First City, by source synthesis, of 4500BC though - so one may be inclined to write off all dates of embrace given for him as inaccurate, and no other Baali is explicitly stated to predate 1800BC.) It would enhance the old 'Saulot is loving terrifying' element that cropped up here and there to no end if his cryptic statements to 'seek Golconda' were not his way of saying 'find enlightenment', but in actuality 'serve Vassago', with the entire basis for the supposed method of transcending the Beast being to serve infernal masters. Even the Salubri Warrior caste would take on a truly sinister cast in that light - weapons employed to fight other Earthbound at the behest of Saulot's secret master of the Golcondic Mysteries. This of course deviates heavily from the usual presentation of Golconda, which is as an unambiguously 'enlightened' state, and has no canonical status - but it's a cool thought.
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Aug 25, 2016 06:48
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So my group is wrapping up our Demon the Descent campaign (which I've loved) and moving to M:tAw2E. I've been reading the rulebook for the last day or so and I'd say my familiarity with the system borders on "child-like" so I'd like some goon input. The concept for the campaign is that we're students at Exeter (excessively high achieving boarding school in the US NE), which has an unusually high number of supernaturals. My character concept is that I'm a foreign student on an athletic scholarship, using life magic to be better at field events like javelin (which is my intended dedicated tool) and intending to take the good fight back to my home country when I'm done with school; I'm thinking a particularly reckless mage for that reason. The other players consist of "Mastigos, some sort of manipulative kid," and "I use the school d&d club as a front for identifying sleepers worthy of wielding true power and guide the worthy towards awakening." The sort of obvious steps for the mage I'm making is Thyrsus, Adamantine Arrow. I'd go with 3 dots of Life to start with, since that's what you need for Perfecting. I really don't know where to go from there. I have to take some Spirit, but I've been told that Spirit magic is only powerful if you understand the arcane rules behind spirits. What else do I need to know? Any ideas for where I could take this mage? Also I don't understand how rotes work in 2E, apparently they just allow you to use the dots in the relevant skill as a bonus on spellcasting? Do mages use attributes for spellcasting at all?
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Aug 25, 2016 16:13
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Spirit is incredibly potent - just, you have to play Pokemon. You are finding, threatening and appeasing spirits useful to you with it, and that means tolerating their obsessions.
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Aug 25, 2016 16:27
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Fate is a good choice for someone who is (or wants to look) reckless, as it enables you to take risks that you really, Really shouldn't and usually come out OK. Also good if the athlete-scholar wants to branch out into team sports where it's astonishingly easy to mask the ability to nudge a ball into a goal.
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Aug 25, 2016 16:43
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Tulip posted:The sort of obvious steps for the mage I'm making is Thyrsus, Adamantine Arrow. I'd go with 3 dots of Life to start with, since that's what you need for Perfecting. I really don't know where to go from there. I have to take some Spirit, but I've been told that Spirit magic is only powerful if you understand the arcane rules behind spirits. What else do I need to know? Any ideas for where I could take this mage? Also I don't understand how rotes work in 2E, apparently they just allow you to use the dots in the relevant skill as a bonus on spellcasting? Do mages use attributes for spellcasting at all? The rules behind spirits, in a nutshell: Spirits bleed Essence over time when they poke out of the Shadow and into the material realm (whether physically manifest or in Twilight) without being in the proximity of some person, place or thing that thematically resonates with the spirit. So a fire spirit in winter is going to beeline for the nearest boiler room, or at the very least a lit cigarette. They get Essence back by basking in displays of their resonance, and they fall dormant if they run out of Essence. Physically manifesting in the material realm, or taking up residence in something or someone to shield themselves from bleeding Essence, requires them to hang around a source of resonance and pull it Open, making that source of resonance sufficiently spooky and empowered to sustain a spirit. The relevant trick Spirit spells can do that you need to know this for that they gently caress with this resonance progression and Essence economy. The right spells can pull resonance Open right away (or close Open resonance), draw in Essence to feed spirits with, cheat straight to Open without needing natural resonance to draw upon, stuff like that. Aside from that it's pretty straightforward Pokemon tricks: see them, touch them, command them, bind them, banish them. The primary benefit of casting by rote in 2e isn't the bonus Skill Yantra, it's the free Reach. Casting a spell by rote lets you apply a Paradox-free amount of Reach as if you were a Master in the spell's Arcanum, meaning, for example, if you have Life 2, casting a Life 2 spell by rote gives you four starting Reach effects to apply without risk of Paradox, instead of one if you had cast it without a rote. It lets you cast spectacular works confidently rather than as a careful gambit.
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Aug 25, 2016 17:09
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Loomer posted:Golconda lore If I ever run Vampire again I'm stealing these ideas, tia
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Aug 25, 2016 22:52
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It should also be noted that Spirit dots give you effective dots in spiritual Rank, which is a measure of how much respect you're owed - and what you owe respect to. A Spirit mage can very quickly get to the point where spirits read their position in the hierarchy of spirit politics as roughly analogous to a state senator or governor, and can thus browbeat them without even using magic. Of course, this also means that if a spirit realizes they're actually able to get leverage over their nominal better, things may be about to go very poorly for the mage if they've been a douchebag. It also means that you show up on the political food chain to bigger spirits for most of your early wizard life, and that is rarely somewhere you want to be. (These are caveats that are important to bring up because Spirit can get bonkers in the hands of someone who gets no real pushback from the spirits they're bossing around)
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Aug 25, 2016 22:56
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Daeren posted:It should also be noted that Spirit dots give you effective dots in spiritual Rank, which is a measure of how much respect you're owed - and what you owe respect to. A Spirit mage can very quickly get to the point where spirits read their position in the hierarchy of spirit politics as roughly analogous to a state senator or governor, and can thus browbeat them without even using magic. On the flip side, if the Spirit mage is really nice to the local spirit population, anyone who even thinks of hurting them will have an ephemeral lynch mob on them within minutes because you are an unlimited font of free essence. Think for a moment what that means to a bunch of spirits who normally have to fight each other over every scrap of essence available. The local Forsaken will hate you with a burning passion though, probably.
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Aug 25, 2016 23:38
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The other main issue with dealing with spirits as that your Pokemon aren't human and don't think like humans do. Every spirit has some burning obsession built into their nature, because that's what they feed on and that's what they are. And, well, yeah, it's real useful to have a violence spirit on hand when you need to fight some rear end in a top hat. But your violence-type pokemon needs to be kept fed and happy, and the way it does that, left on its own, is to cause violence. Spirits encourage their own nature indiscriminately and, generally speaking, without any particular care for the people who might be affected by what they do. You can beat caring into them, or at least fear of you and/or desire to please you, but you can't take the murder out of a murder spirit.
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Aug 25, 2016 23:41
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Vassago also plays a prominent role in Hunter: Fall From Grace, as the patron and voice-in-the-head of Imbued serial killer Rigger111.
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Aug 26, 2016 15:55
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I remember one time in PBP game I actually created a murder spirit out of a mote in order to gain more information about a murder and pretty much let it run free after that, the main antagonist NPC took the time to call me out for how stupid that was.
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Aug 26, 2016 16:07
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Pope Guilty posted:Vassago also plays a prominent role in Hunter: Fall From Grace, as the patron and voice-in-the-head of Imbued serial killer Rigger111. That plot thread also gets tied up in the interstitial fiction in World of Darkness: Time of Judgment.
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Aug 26, 2016 16:12
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And that plot thread just happens to be in one of the first books on my 2004 reading list for the project. 2004's a small year - 15 books. That's it. Then I have to finish my Redemption count, wrap up some RAGE and VTES cards, and then go on the grueling trek of finishing and documenting something like 30 - 40 novels, so the project isn't quite done yet. There's also the matter of the x20 and x4 edition content to consider.
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Aug 26, 2016 16:25
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gtrmp posted:That plot thread also gets tied up in the interstitial fiction in World of Darkness: Time of Judgment. Van Wyk really did have one of the better plot lines in the oWoD.
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Aug 26, 2016 16:31
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For something frightening, Grandma's spectre invasion unleashes a full 198,000 spectres on the world if you follow the maths.
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Aug 26, 2016 17:03
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Loomer posted:For something frightening, Grandma's spectre invasion unleashes a full 198,000 spectres on the world if you follow the maths. 
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Aug 27, 2016 02:12
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Right. In the Orphan-Grinders, Grandmaw sends her forces in a mass-scale invasion of the Shadowlands, with the intent they'll eventually go right through the barrier and feast on the living. First, they take a month or so to capture, destroy, or convert a full 9/10ths of the global wraith population. Then in End Game, with her critical mass built up, she tears a hole in the barrier and sends part of the Maelstrom into the living world, along with her spectres. This is, ideally, where the PCs stop her as that qualifies as a Very Bad Thing on an eschatological level (hey, it's 2004, the world ends like 9 different ways.) The remnants of the Hierarchy, Renegades, and Heretics sure won't - they're all dead, including those in the actual Underworld. Grandmaw's eaten the lot, except for a few who are now spectres serving the Malfeans. The number of her forces is a conservative figure. Orphan-Grinders informs us that for every million people a city will have about 3 small hives and 1 medium hive, holding 10 - 40 and 40 - 80 spectres each respectively. We average those to 120 spectres for every million people in a city. At five million, cities gain a large hive of 100 - 200 spectres, which we'll average at 150. It's unclear whether there are extra large hives for every additional five million, so we have a figure for and a figure against. There are 244 cities worldwide holding a million people, so that's nearly 30,000 spectres right there. 17 cities fall at the 5 million mark, and another 58 over 5 million, so there are a bare minimum of 75 'large' hives. What we wind up with as our two figures, assuming the median values of Small-20/Med-60/Large-150 hold roughly valid over the 480 cities worldwide that fall into the appropriate population brackets, is 188,500 spectres for the Single-Hive model (where every 5 million more people does not mean an additional Large Hive) and 198,700 spectres for the Multi-Hive model. That's only the number of forces she has at the beginning of her invasion. It does not factor in variable factors like cities with high crime or economic depression, which have the figures doubled (so the WoD Mexico City, at some 20 million people, will have 6,000 spectres swarm it) or the frightening prospect of the Grandmaw's forces growing from the 9/10ths of wraiths captured by her forces. They also assume that every single city without a million people in it is entirely uninfested, which seems unlikely, but keeps things simple and adheres rigidly to the ratio given. Basically, if Orpheus is in play, Xerxes Jones didn't just trigger a maelstrom when he took a nuke into the Labyrinth like a loving moron. He triggered the goddamn end of the world by waking Grandmaw up. If she wins, her kiddies swarm the earth and devour most of humanity within a week. If she loses, the Malfeans do. The single best outcome presented in the text is if the plucky PCs manage to convince her to go back to the underworld and then... Pray and hope she falls back asleep. She can't really be killed without something sliding into her place, nor can she really be blocked off or stopped by the PCs. EDIT: I'll be comparing the end scenarios for 2004, incidentally, for how bad they are for the human race. An Orpheus 'bad end' is pretty bleak - 99% of humanity dies, the survivors scrounge among the ruins, and everything becomes a nightmarish fusion of Spectre-ruled underworld and reality. The single best ending so far, strangely, is the tripartite ending of the ToJ novels, because in those - while things get very ugly with spirits running wild to kill everyone, the gauntlet shattering, the solar system itself being destablized by Anthelios, mass terror attacks in the struggle between Anarchs and the Camarilla, a demon conquering the entire world while raising vast armies of zombies, and the moon speeding up to make its full lunar cycle over the course of a single day - the endstate is actually a positive one. Existence folds back in on itself, and the limited false-reality we live in day to day returns to a state of infinite nothingness and raw, unchained potential. It is the single most far-reaching endstate of any presented in the oWoD canon as literally everything collapses into an infinite singularity of potentiality, so it has both the highest death toll and the most positive outlook. That may however just be my inner qabalist talking, as a reunion with the ein soph (the undifferentiated godhead, not broken into aspects) can only happen when supreme enlightenment has been accomplished and is in fact the ultimate purpose of life. Loomer fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 05:39
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Loomer posted:EDIT: Couldn't that ending lead into NWoD/NWoD2e?
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Aug 27, 2016 16:14
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The total collapse one? Yes, quite readily. If they ever wanted to make an explicit connection it'd work nicely, though it has no explicit hooks to tie in with. There's a vague suggestion that the unity (the One, though I always sub-in the Ain due to my own qabalistic leanings) might simply repeat the same process over and over again, or do something slightly different. It's not so much a lead-in so much as an ending that does not deny the possibility of rebirth, at least if we're using the conventional sort of meaning of a lead-in where there are hooks for the new version. While I'm thinking on it, I actually really liked what the three ToJ novels had to say at the end. They weren't necessarily great reads, but they fit with their lines nicely. Vampire was about inevitability, the capacity of the human being to perform monstrous acts, how getting what you think you want might just be the worst thing for you, and things slowly but surely going to poo poo around you no matter what you do. And that's exactly what happens. Werewolf ends with literally every Garou in the world dying, because their story was always about fighting to the bitter last for a cause worth making the ultimate sacrifice for - and they manage it. They save the world. Creation continues, the Wyrm is put to rights in their sacrifice by the seed of the gurahl, and while they are gone forever, they went out red in tooth and claw, screaming defiance against the long night. Mage, the game about boundless potential and the danger that removing human limitation bring, has those dangers come to the forefront - but ends with the ultimate state of boundless potential. They aren't great books, but their finales close up the line themes really nicely. Loomer fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 16:42
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Senior Scarybagels posted:Couldn't that ending lead into NWoD/NWoD2e? I vaguely recall there's also a section in one of the chapters of the Ascension book for Mage that speaks of departing for new worlds and fresh beginnings and gave me similar vibes, but I can't find it on a skimthrough.
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Aug 27, 2016 22:10
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I can't help but think that tying the nWoD to the oWoD would just lessen the former. Kinda like the supposed Aberrant - Exalted link. I mean, it's there, but it doesn't seem like anything that would benefit either game.
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Aug 27, 2016 23:13
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The Exalted link was, briefly, to oWoD, but yeah, do not cross the streams.
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Aug 27, 2016 23:51
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Man I wish I could get an Aberrant group running. My friends are all superhero comic dorks but want nothing to do with the ST system.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:08
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Mors Rattus posted:The Exalted link was, briefly, to oWoD, but yeah, do not cross the streams. There is a semi-popular noncanonical idea that when Divis Mal and his buddies eventually depart the universe to play at creators themselves, their evolution mutates them to the point that they became Exalted's Primordials. I don't find the appeal in linking the Worlds of Darkness to be much specific about the worlds beyond their basic thematic mirroring as dark urban fantasy/horror games about classic monsters reinterpreted. Particular sets of mirrors can be interesting to play with, though. The Demon Translation Guide, the one translation guide I consider to be a solid product (if short), makes the idea of playing the two types of fallen angel off each other appealing to me, for all the rich comparisons and contrasts they offer each other in terms of characterization. Then again, that doesn't necessarily require a universe crossover. Even the Translation Guide suggests one framework that fits the Fallen into the CofD's ambiguous mix of hoary paganism and post-religious skepticism.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:27
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