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One of the most baffling paradox's of the Jedi was them taking the moral high horse yet advocating and practicing complete-non action until it was completely too late and the galaxy was in world war 3 mode. To highlight, Qui-Gon, Obi-wan are both completely OK with slavery. In fact, they are so complacent at the sight of the practice Qui-Gon actively participated in the slave trade. He even uses Anakin's mom as a tool to manipulate Quatto during the slave bargain so that he can acquire Anakin. The Jedi are supposed to be good guys, moral superiors, progressive thinkers yet they kidnap children, never to see their parents again, and subject them to martial training and ideological indoctrination. This is why Hogwarts is such a more effective tool from a quality perspective. They don't kidnap kids and brainwash them. Its just a school, they learn things as they develop and generally become educated in a positive environment with family contact, and friends. Yeah, a few assholes come around once a century or so, but when evil rises they fight it immediately. The people complacent with evil are shown to be evil in Harry Potter, which, in reality, is true. This is also why Luke is the ideal force user, the New Soviet Man of the Jedi as it were. He rejects dogma, he rejects ideology, he instead not only acts but acts in a way to fight for what is right. He tells Yoda to gently caress off when Yoda literally tells him to let his friends die. His friends were prominent members of the Rebellion, too, essentially meaning Yoda would not only let like 5 people die (droids are people too you fuckers) but also condemn the galaxy to genocide and fascism. So Luke goes and not only saves his friends (sans Han but he does later anyway) but he also learns the truth which Yoda and Obi-Wan literally lied to him to hide, and also does not fall to the dark side. So the Jedi we see are kind of reprehensible people. The Jedi made it easy for Fascism to rise because they were honestly too loving dumb. poo poo, Palpy didn't even have to be a Sith Lord. He could've been a regular old Hitler or Trump and the outcome of the entire series would've been the same, sans Luke being electrocuted. Phi230 fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 23:40
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Phi230 posted:He even uses Anakin's mom as a tool to manipulate Quatto during the slave bargain so that he can acquire Anakin.  "QUI-GONNNNNN! STAAAARRRT THE REEAAAACCCTOOOOOOOR!"
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Aug 23, 2016 23:58
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gently caress you I almost choked on my beer
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Aug 24, 2016 00:00
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Phi230 posted:
If he was a Hitler or Trump the Jedi probably would not have attempted the coup.
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Aug 24, 2016 00:24
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anglachel posted:If he was a Hitler or Trump the Jedi probably would not have attempted the coup. Thats actually a good point. The only reason the Jedi acted at all was due to a genocidal hatred of a opposing religious group
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Aug 24, 2016 00:28
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Phi230 posted:One of the most baffling paradox's of the Jedi was them taking the moral high horse yet advocating and practicing complete-non action until it was completely too late and the galaxy was in world war 3 mode. It's pretty terrible that the jedi only start assassinating people after the tragic intergalactic war starts. Cool, we killed Dooku/Grievous/Fett/Central Droid Brain/whatever. Good thing we waited til a load of innocent people died before deigning to act!
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Aug 24, 2016 00:30
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Phi230 posted:poo poo, Palpy didn't even have to be a Sith Lord. He could've been a regular old Hitler or Trump and the outcome of the entire series would've been the same, sans Luke being electrocuted. It's arguable how much he was a "legitimate" sith. He played the part becaused it helped him control people and lent him (or his persona) authority, but if he bought into it himself is never answered. It largely doesn't matter if he was a sith or not, and the Jedi Council's fear of the sith blinded them to the actual situation. If the jedi were affraid of clowns, Palpatine would have become a clown instead, regardless of his actual faith in the clown philosophy.
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Aug 24, 2016 00:51
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Phi230 posted:Thats actually a good point. To go further. I would imagine if a Supreme Chancellor sitting at the culmination of the Clone Wars who wasn't a Sith ordered the Jedi to round up a bunch of sentient beings into camps for the purposes of wiping them all out. The Jedi would likely follow this order and try to cleanse the galaxy of the droid menace.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:04
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Phi230 posted:Qui-Gon, Obi-wan are both completely OK with slavery. In fact, they are so complacent at the sight of the practice Qui-Gon actively participated in the slave trade. He even uses Anakin's mom as a tool to manipulate Quatto during the slave bargain so that he can acquire Anakin. Kinda makes you wonder about their recruitment process, doesn't it?
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Aug 25, 2016 15:29
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In Return of the Jedi, Luke is acting on the ideal of what he believes a Jedi to be. Since he and Darth are the only ones left he's free to make up his own rules and redefine the past as he sees fit. It's much like how in the Simpsons classic "Lisa the Iconoclast", Lisa ultimately decides to let people have the myth of Jebediah as a bold pioneer instead of a foul pirate, because the myth has power too. Or how in various media Captain America doesn't embody the actual history of America (Trail of Tears and slavery and all that) but rather the constructed myth of a land based on fairness and equality. (See also the title character in "The Return of Captain Invincible", a film about American ideals made by Australians.)
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Aug 25, 2016 18:24
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Phi230 posted:One of the most baffling paradox's of the Jedi was them taking the moral high horse yet advocating and practicing complete-non action until it was completely too late and the galaxy was in world war 3 mode. Qui-Gon isn't okay with slavery any more than you're okay with world hunger just because you're not actively fomenting a bloody rebellion to displace the capitalistic system which allows it to exist. It's not evil to realize that there are some injustices in this world that you are powerless to change overnight, unless you were able to amass enough power to exert your own singular will on everybody else through the use of overwhelming force, like the Emperor ultimately does. The Jedi's non-action isn't what facilitated Palpatine's rise to power. It was their active participation in a violent crusade to rid the galaxy of all evil and corrupting influences--an impossible task. Luke succeeds in Return of the Jedi precisely because he refuses to strike down the evil, irredeemable Vader; because he remains passive. He throws his lightsaber away. He doesn't use his lightsaber to depose the slavemaster Palpatine. He resists the temptation to exert his external will on the situation and in doing so inspires the slave Vader himself to depose his own master (the evil inside himself embodied by Palpatine) using the very chains that bind him, just as Leia does earlier in the movie with Jabba. Luke doesn't force justice. He lets it happen on its own terms. He respects free will. You can't force justice. You can't free someone; you can only give them the means to free themselves, and that can take time. It doesn't happen just because you managed to lop off a dictator's head, or (as in the case of the Jedi/Republic and Tatooine's slave economy) militarily overthrow a foreign government. That's a power fantasy just as much as anything else is. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 03:38
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Cnut the Great posted:Qui-Gon isn't okay with slavery any more than you're okay with world hunger If only there were a middle ground between not doing anything about slavery and overthrowing the entire regime, something like "using one's magical powers to free two slaves."
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Aug 27, 2016 04:00
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homullus posted:If only there were a middle ground between not doing anything about slavery and overthrowing the entire regime, something like "using one's magical powers to free two slaves." Why stop at two slaves?
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Aug 27, 2016 04:03
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Schwarzwald posted:Why stop at two slaves? The opportunity cost of each additional delay on the mission to stop people on Naboo from starving in concentration camps suggests that there is some number of slaves that Qui-Gon would be justified in pausing at.
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Aug 27, 2016 04:15
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The fact that the Jedi tolerate slavery at all is supposed to be one of their biggest failings. Unlike average people, they are literally wizard knights who could actually do something about slavery. The plot of the prequels depends on the Jedi tacitly approving of slavery via inaction. This isn't a bug, it is a feature.
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Aug 27, 2016 04:28
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That would have been a great message for the prequels. What if Palpatine wasn't just generic evil bad guy, but actually thought he was doing good. So much injustice and wasted potential in the galaxy, and now here he is with the power to fix those wrongs. Sure some people who don't deserve to will die, but you have to weigh up the numbers. So he tries to control the galaxy in harder and harsher ways. But the tighter he and Vader grip, the more worlds fight and struggle and try to escape. But they can't stop, if the stop it will be chaos, so they have to exert control. Even if whole planets have to die for it. edit: When the Jedi can do nothing about it, imagine shots of armies of Clone Troopers storming in and freeing slaves.
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Aug 27, 2016 13:18
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Senor Tron posted:That would have been a great message for the prequels. What if Palpatine wasn't just generic evil bad guy, but actually thought he was doing good. So much injustice and wasted potential in the galaxy, and now here he is with the power to fix those wrongs. Sure some people who don't deserve to will die, but you have to weigh up the numbers. So he tries to control the galaxy in harder and harsher ways. But the tighter he and Vader grip, the more worlds fight and struggle and try to escape. But they can't stop, if the stop it will be chaos, so they have to exert control. Even if whole planets have to die for it. Nah, Yuuzhan Vong was still a bad idea. Palpatine works because what you're identifying as generically evil is just naked ambition for power. Dude is literally Frank Underwood but with magic powers.
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Aug 27, 2016 14:23
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Heads up: Palpatine being good is loving retarded and makes no sense
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Aug 27, 2016 14:40
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When the revolutionary French government sent representatives to Haiti, those agents directly worked to end slavery.
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Aug 27, 2016 14:44
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Of course the emperor put an end to all that.
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Aug 27, 2016 14:45
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Pro tip: Jango Fett's ship is called Slave I. Django Unchained is also named after Jango [citation needed].
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Aug 27, 2016 15:43
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being a clone is basically being a slave
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Aug 27, 2016 15:51
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ungulateman posted:Pro tip: Jango Fett's ship is called Slave I. They're both named after this Django: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-9awyAHaRo
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Aug 27, 2016 17:10
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ungulateman posted:Pro tip: Jango Fett's ship is called Slave I. I actually have never noticed the Jango -> Django reference until now.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:11
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Looke posted:being a clone is basically being a slave The Jedi have no moral concerns about creating a slave army of sentient humans and using them like disposable playthings lets just say if I were a Jedi I think it would be much better for the galaxy and for me personally to be a Jedi trained by Luke (and subsequently killed by Kylo I guess) than to participate in the Order of The Failed Monks
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Aug 27, 2016 21:18
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Cnut the Great posted:Qui-Gon isn't okay with slavery any more than you're okay with world hunger just because you're not actively fomenting a bloody rebellion to displace the capitalistic system which allows it to exist. It's not evil to realize that there are some injustices in this world that you are powerless to change overnight, unless you were able to amass enough power to exert your own singular will on everybody else through the use of overwhelming force, like the Emperor ultimately does. Cnut, I'm on-board with 99% of your posts and love your contributions to this thread, but I think you're pretty off-base here. While bringing the American Civil War to the galaxy is possibly not the most Christ-like thing the Jedi could have done, it is still notable that Qui-Gon seems genuinely unmoved by the question of chattel slavery, and has a notable distaste for non-humans until they "prove" themselves to him. While I agree with you that rampaging through Mos Espa, Sherman-style isn't the way forward, it's nonetheless true that it would be easy and just to take Shmi from Watto with little to no effort. And if you don't have the same assessment of Qui-Gon's behavior on Tatooine, what's your take on the Jedi volunteering to lead an army of slaves (to of course fight against another army of slaves?) And isn't their tacit endorsement of slavery reflected in their philosophy of child recruitment for their own Spec Ops team? One of the most jarring and I think unintentionally uncomfortable images for me in AOTC is Obi-Wan consulting with Yoda about the location of Kamino while a bunch of 7 year olds learn to use deadly weapons. Imagine how that would look in modern terms, for a soldier to walk into a camp to consult with his commanding officer, only to see the officer training 7 year olds with machine guns.
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Aug 27, 2016 22:29
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You guys are reading into this poo poo way too much. As for the 7 years olds, martial arts (including those with weapons) are taught to kids around the world all the time as a means of teaching discipline and self-defense, and stuff.
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Aug 27, 2016 22:44
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Jewmanji posted:One of the most jarring and I think unintentionally uncomfortable images for me in AOTC is Obi-Wan consulting with Yoda about the location of Kamino while a bunch of 7 year olds learn to use deadly weapons. Imagine how that would look in modern terms, for a soldier to walk into a camp to consult with his commanding officer, only to see the officer training 7 year olds with machine guns. Wow, hyperbole much? Remember I'm one of the guys who didn't like the prequels and even I think this is "off base" (thread's new word of the month?)
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Aug 27, 2016 22:47
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Galaga Galaxian posted:You guys are reading into this poo poo way too much. Yes totally the same thing for a kid to choose Karate instead of little league, and a group of religious mercenaries recruiting and training young children to use hyper-deadly weaponry in anticipation that they will actually use those weapons on people. For instance, a kid who grows up to slaughter an entire village of migrant scavengers out of revenge using that very same tool. Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Wow, hyperbole much? Remember I'm one of the guys who didn't like the prequels and even I think this is "off base" (thread's new word of the month?) I'm not trying to be obtuse: what's hyperbolic about it? I agree it's maybe a jarring comparison and that's exactly why I find it so troubling. Lucas could've just as easily depicted the kids all doing Jedi-gymnastics or straight up meditating, but instead he chose to depict them in pretend-combat. It doesn't seem any more "hyperbolic" than saying that C-3PO and R2D2 are sold to the Skywalker's at a slave auction. When you think about what Lucas is trying to invoke, it gives you pause. That's the point. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 22:48
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I learned to use a rifle at 10 years old. 
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Aug 27, 2016 22:49
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Pretty sure they weren't learning to hunt wamprats with those lightsabers.
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Aug 27, 2016 22:53
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Jewmanji posted:
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Aug 27, 2016 23:03
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The Jedi take special children and train them to be living weapons that act as thugs for the Republic. They have to take them as children or else their brand of brainwashing/indoctrination won't be as effective (as seen with Anakin).
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Aug 27, 2016 23:08
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Bongo Bill posted:The opportunity cost of each additional delay on the mission to stop people on Naboo from starving in concentration camps suggests that there is some number of slaves that Qui-Gon would be justified in pausing at. Serf posted:The fact that the Jedi tolerate slavery at all is supposed to be one of their biggest failings. Unlike average people, they are literally wizard knights who could actually do something about slavery. The plot of the prequels depends on the Jedi tacitly approving of slavery via inaction. This isn't a bug, it is a feature. One of the more interesting things in AotC in Count Dooku's expectation that, had Qui-gon Jinn still been alive, he's have been convinced to side with the Separatists against the Republic (and the Jedi). That Dooku suspects that at all reframes Jinn's actions in TPM, especially in regards to why he didn't free (more) slaves. That Jinn made any effort to free any slave at all (however minor and however arguably self-serving that effort was), along with his frankly callous admission to Anakin that the Jedi (as a whole) weren't interested in ending slavery, suggest that he felt doing the right thing occasionally required acting outside the Jedi council's wishes, and conversely, that acting withing the Jedi council's wishes occasionally inhibited his ability to do the right thing. Jinn's excuse for not freeing more slaves and performing more good actions, then, is that the Jedi held him back. This also suggests another motive in the council's reluctance to accept Anakin. When a radical and potential reformist presents them with a messiah figure they are hesitant to accept him. Only when the radical figure is dead (and unable to turn the messiah against them) do they agree to have Anakin trained.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:05
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Star Wars isn't at all subtle, yet people keep ignoring the points. Edit: yeah, as a kid I came out of Episode 1 wondering if Anakin would have turned all right after all if he'd been trained by Qui-Gon.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:07
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The biggest sin the prequels commit is to make the Jedi lovely. They become the good guys because they are on Team Good, not because of anything they actually do. This is a classic example of telling rather than showing, and a sign of bad writing and bad directing. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic...but what we see of the Jedi in the prequels does not match up. IMO it's much easier to explain the discrepancy as lovely filmmaking than to assume OG Obi-Wan is lying or some poo poo that my friends like to use to post "Grey Jedi" memes on Facebook.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:14
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Apollodorus posted:IMO it's much easier to explain the discrepancy as lovely filmmaking than to assume OG Obi-Wan is lying or some poo poo Why is it easier to blame this on the genericized Boogeyman of "bad filmmaking" when the character in question has already been shown lying his rear end off for the sole purpose of making himself feel better?
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Aug 28, 2016 00:20
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Dude, the Jedi having lost their way is in your face like a sledgeer. It's not even subtext, it's text. Which dorsn't make Obi-Wan a liar. The Jedi were the guardians of the Republic.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:22
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He hadn't already been shown lying his rear end off, though. This was in the first half of the first movie. And as far as I can tell, what Obi-Wan was saying about Luke's father in that scene was true, from a certain point of view.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:23
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Apollodorus posted:For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic...but what we see of the Jedi in the prequels does not match up. Well, exactly. The unspoken second half to "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice" is that after that time, something changed. The assumption was that the Jedi Knights were removed, but the reality was the Jedi Knights stopped supporting peace and justice. Their removal only came later. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Aug 28, 2016 |
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Aug 28, 2016 00:28
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