Transitchat honeypot

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blugu64: Jul 17, 2006; Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?

the only thing that the rail line next to the highway does is provide an easy smash and grab parking lot, and take up space that could be used for something productive like a green belt and extra lanes.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 18:39

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# ? May 29, 2024 18:28

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

hackbunny posted:

LANES

jesus christ

# ? Aug 29, 2016 18:39

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

if your new higher capacity roads are congested it just means you don't understand the actual demand. new traffic doesn't appear from nowhere, it comes off back roads that everyone was using because the main roads were poorly planned.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 18:40

Iridium: Apr 4, 2002; Wretched Harp

some time ago, Georgia's previous governor made a deal with some toll road companies. they took over part of the HOV lane north of the city, converted it into pay-per-mile poo poo. the mileage fees would change based on congestion so that on bad days you paid more, on light days and weekends it was cheap as poo poo.

at first, it got zero usage. since it basically took a whole lane away from traffic, and multi-passenger cars suddenly didn't want to ride in that lane (carpools were still ok to ride free but they had to 'register' for it ahead of time and it didn't work well), traffic in the other lanes became a severe problem.

this wasn't really solved until they lowered the costs so much that the fees were trivial, causing the whole system to lose money rather badly for several years. somehow this was evidence of success and they announced deals to build these toll lanes to other roads. but Atlanta being Atlanta, traffic got worse. people started using it more out of need than convenience, and the prices got jacked. didn't matter: traffic was so bad people were willing to pay. hit a record high congestion fee recently. it's also no longer convenient at all, because the toll lane is as jam packed as everything else.

so much so that now they're looking at offering credits to regular toll lane uses who decide not to use it during peak hours.

"the local paper posted:

The state will roll out new toll lanes in Cobb, Cherokee, Henry and north Gwinnett counties, but troublesome traffic has caused the existing Gwinnett lanes to slow below federal standards at crucial times.

So Georgia officials are working out details to offer toll credits to many regular users of the HOT lanes if they avoid traveling those lanes at the most congested periods of the day, said Chris Tomlinson, the executive director of the State Road & Tollway Authority.

The new setup, which Tomlinson said probably would roll out next year, sharply expands a previous pilot program that gave more than 200 super heavy users of the toll express lanes up to $3 a week in credits if they didn�t use the lanes between their usual 7 a.m. to 8 a.m. commute. The effort lasted six months, offering drivers a maximum of $50 in credits over that period.

going to all this effort to avoid trying to fix the problems with our rail system.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 18:50

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Shaggar posted:

if your new higher capacity roads are congested it just means you don't understand the actual demand. new traffic doesn't appear from nowhere, it comes off back roads that everyone was using because the main roads were poorly planned.

sounds to me like you don't understand actual demand

when you make the roads bigger more people choose to drive on them than before, even people who weren't driving

it generally takes at the most 6 months

we've known this since the 60s btw it's a v well studied phenomenon

the inverse can be produced thru roadway dieting which has only gained traction over the past decade or so since it seems quite counterintuitive to the people responsible for making these decisions like mayors and state congresses

# ? Aug 29, 2016 18:55

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

hackbunny posted:

LANES

why does this picture of peripheral Beijing not have impenetrable smog on it?

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

sounds to me like you don't understand actual demand

when you make the roads bigger more people choose to drive on them than before, even people who weren't driving

it generally takes at the most 6 months

clearly the solution is to build a few thousand extra lanes to simultaneously fit every single citizen and worker in a separate car

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:00

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

oh good. some random british dude came up with some theory with no evidence back in the 60s so that must still be true.

you don't have any visibility on end to end travel across all routes so claiming "well it just appeared from nowhere!" is the best you can do.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:02

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

also road dieting is just diversion to other roads that you aren't currently studying

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:03

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Iridium posted:

some time ago, Georgia's previous governor made a deal with some toll road companies. they took over part of the HOV lane north of the city, converted it into pay-per-mile poo poo. the mileage fees would change based on congestion so that on bad days you paid more, on light days and weekends it was cheap as poo poo.

at first, it got zero usage. since it basically took a whole lane away from traffic, and multi-passenger cars suddenly didn't want to ride in that lane (carpools were still ok to ride free but they had to 'register' for it ahead of time and it didn't work well), traffic in the other lanes became a severe problem.

this wasn't really solved until they lowered the costs so much that the fees were trivial, causing the whole system to lose money rather badly for several years. somehow this was evidence of success and they announced deals to build these toll lanes to other roads. but Atlanta being Atlanta, traffic got worse. people started using it more out of need than convenience, and the prices got jacked. didn't matter: traffic was so bad people were willing to pay. hit a record high congestion fee recently. it's also no longer convenient at all, because the toll lane is as jam packed as everything else.

so much so that now they're looking at offering credits to regular toll lane uses who decide not to use it during peak hours.

going to all this effort to avoid trying to fix the problems with our rail system.

HOT lanes are poo poo garbage but even regular HOV lanes are entirely worthless for congestion reduction

we know this b/c people aren't encouraged to carpool due to them, and that trip times appreciably aren't reduced by using them

at best they have zero impact

in every single instance you're better off just having another normal lane (well really you'd want a dedicated bus lane but lol at that happening)

HOT and HOV lanes are only ever pushed by people who want them installed for reasons other than congestion reduction

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:04

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

"hey everyone! we reduced congestion on this road by making it shittier!!!"
*ignores increased congestion everywhere else*

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:04

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

shaggar do i need to remind you that i'm a licensed transportation engineer

the way you seem to think things work on roads runs counter to an entire body of knowledge that it's literally my job to know

50+ years of study and real world evidence show us that these behaviors are true, it can't really be argued like at all

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:05

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

induced demand is a myth to cover up bad planning and a poor understanding of the pre-existing demand and how it was being served.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:11

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

shaggar do i need to remind you that i'm a licensed transportation engineer

the way you seem to think things work on roads runs counter to an entire body of knowledge that it's literally my job to know

50+ years of study and real world evidence show us that these behaviors are true, it can't really be argued like at all

baby's first shaggaring :allears:

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:12

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

you people cant even get lights configured properly so i don't expect you to understand how to build anything else.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:13

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

here's an induced demand study from earlier this month done in your home state of canadia

it's a thing that's constantly being examined in different contexts and denying it makes you sound like one of those fluoride mindcontrol weirdos

quote:

Ignoring generated traffic results in self-fulfilling predict and provide planning: Planners extrapolate traffic growth rates to predict that congestion will reach gridlock unless capacity expands. Adding capacity generates traffic, which leads to renewed congestion with higher traffic volumes, and more automobile oriented transport and land use patterns. This cycle continues until road capacity expansion costs become unacceptable.

The amount of traffic generated depends on specific conditions. Expanding highly congested roads with considerable latent demand tends to generate significant amounts of traffic, providing only temporary congestion reductions.

Generated traffic does not mean that roadway expansion provides no benefits and should never be implemented. However, ignoring generated traffic results in inaccurate forecasts of impacts and benefits. Road projects considered cost effective by conventional analysis may actually provide little long-term benefit to motorists and make society overall worse off due to generated traffic. Other strategies may be better overall. Another implication is that highway capacity expansion projects should incorporate strategies to avoid increasing external costs, such as more stringent vehicle emission regulations to avoid increasing pollution and land use regulations to limit sprawl.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:15

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

hobbesmaster posted:

baby's first shaggaring

i made this so long ago

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:16

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

here's an induced demand study from earlier this month done in your home state of canadia

it's a thing that's constantly being examined in different contexts and denying it makes you sound like one of those fluoride mindcontrol weirdos

its not generated traffic, its redirected traffic

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:37

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

shaggar w/ the powerful "nuh uh" argument

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:45

theflyingexecutive: Apr 22, 2007

hp is there highway planning doctrine that endorses removing transfers between highways? in nyc there are a ton of highways that will weave in and out of each other and it seems that so many interchanges would slow down traffic because of the constant merges and exits

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:46

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

theflyingexecutive posted:

hp is there highway planning doctrine that endorses removing transfers between highways? in nyc there are a ton of highways that will weave in and out of each other and it seems that so many interchanges would slow down traffic because of the constant merges and exits

they typically don't remove interchanges only b/c they're so godawful expensive

but if they want to put a new one in or change something one of the things that gets looked at is the distance b/w them since you really don't want to reduce that, for the reasons that you mentioned - they call those weaving zones btw

in fact a lotta the time when the highways went in there were hardly any interchanges at all and only later added them as demand dictated them

i've actually participated in feasibility studies for puttin in new ones in various places and NEVER once have we come to the conclusion that yes this is warranted (in fact i'd argue that these studies are used politically most often to justify the "no build" scenario more than anything else) - these are engineering opinions btw as in "here are the numbers and what they say" type of proof you can point to, personal opinions can't really enter into it

anyway if an interchange were gonna come out it would probably need to be as part of a gigantic overhaul for whatever facility it lay on, like say as a realignment or bridge replacement or something big like that where they could justify the cost of not rebuilding it as part of the project

# ? Aug 29, 2016 19:53

Cygni: Nov 12, 2005; raring to post

wait until shagger finds out that in actual cities, development happens and people move in. for example, the LA metro area added the entire population of Maine in the last 5 years alone. and home owners and renters #1 criteria pre-move in every study? location and ease of getting to work.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 20:27

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

Seems like your city would have to be pretty hosed up to have that amount of tarmac.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 20:54

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

How long does it take to get from one side to the other of that motorway? How long for a pedestrian?

# ? Aug 29, 2016 20:54

blugu64: Jul 17, 2006; Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?

pedestrians can cross under an overpass at the crosswalk where it's safe easy and quick

# ? Aug 29, 2016 20:58

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

I count roughly 25 lanes in that mega road photo. At 1800v/h that's about 23000 people in each direction, assuming it is all single occupancy vehicles. Proper metro systems have a capacity of about 30000 in each direction.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 21:08

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

blugu64 posted:

pedestrians can cross under an overpass at the crosswalk where it's safe easy and quick

I doubt that it is any if those things

# ? Aug 29, 2016 21:10

ArmedZombie: Jun 6, 2004

blugu64 posted:

the only thing that the rail line next to the highway does is provide an easy smash and grab parking lot, and take up space that could be used for something productive like a green belt and extra lanes.

lmfao

# ? Aug 29, 2016 21:17

jony neuemonic: Nov 13, 2009

blugu64 posted:

pedestrians can cross under an overpass at the crosswalk where it's safe easy and quick

we already have a shaggar, thanks.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 21:19

ArmedZombie: Jun 6, 2004

shaggar would be an excellent foil in a socratic dialogue

# ? Aug 29, 2016 21:20

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

blugu64 posted:

the only thing that the rail line next to the highway does is provide an easy smash and grab parking lot, and take up space that could be used for something productive like a green belt and extra lanes.

lol

# ? Aug 29, 2016 21:36

blugu64: Jul 17, 2006; Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?

my bad I forgot that goons hate green spaces and want to put loud dirty trains everywhere :lol:

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:09

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

blugu64 posted:

my bad I forgot that goons hate green spaces and want to put loud dirty trains everywhere

who still uses diesel engine trains everyone else changed over to electrics for movin people around decades ago

oh wait that's right caltrain does, and they're being sued by the super-rich in atherton b/c they think the catenary equipment looks ugly

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:16

jony neuemonic: Nov 13, 2009

blugu64 posted:

my bad I forgot that goons hate green spaces and want to put loud dirty trains everywhere

"green space" is unironically awful and a sure sign your urban design is a disaster.

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:20

theflyingexecutive: Apr 22, 2007

blugu64 posted:

my bad I forgot that goons hate green spaces and want to put loud dirty trains everywhere

yes please, more cars and parking lots

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:24

Asymmetric POSTer: Aug 17, 2005

Shaggar posted:

if your new higher capacity roads are congested it just means you don't understand the actual demand. new traffic doesn't appear from nowhere, it comes off back roads that everyone was using because the main roads were poorly planned.

lmao

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:26

Asymmetric POSTer: Aug 17, 2005

shagger is bad for society so its good he is contained in maine

im also glad maine cant even maintain the few roads it has

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:27

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

i like it when shaggar makes up funy things about the way he thinks roads work

it's kinda like when i talk to my grandma in houston and she asks me about my job

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:28

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

ArmZ posted:

shaggar would be an excellent foil in a socratic dialogue

You're right, I never thought about it this way. Thank you

# ? Aug 29, 2016 23:29

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

pointsofdata posted:

I count roughly 25 lanes in that mega road photo. At 1800v/h that's about 23000 people in each direction, assuming it is all single occupancy vehicles. Proper metro systems have a capacity of about 30000 in each direction.

good lord roads are inefficient garbage

# ? Aug 30, 2016 04:45

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# ? May 29, 2024 18:28

fermun: Nov 4, 2009

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

i made this so long ago

http://i.imgur.com/euoS5O8.gifv

# ? Aug 30, 2016 05:24

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