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Chokes McGee posted:Okay I know what your point is here but this is kind of the worst possible way to make it. No one's gonna take your advice when you use the words "special snowflake"in them. You're right of course, but after years of hearing the exact same attitude about conforming to genre from just about every fresh aspiring writer, I've become a bitter old man who ain't gonna pull no punches. If you're writing for yourself, write whatever you like. If you're making a run at writing professionally and aren't some literal literary genius/new voice of a generation/whatever (so unlikely you don't even know), just suck it up and heed the wisdom of popular conventions like genre until someday you're popular enough to get away with subverting them. Also get off my lawn, and something something sexting millennials
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Aug 27, 2016 17:24
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Sexting Millennials, the hot new romance novel from Chokington J. McGuillicuty
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Aug 27, 2016 17:56
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The safest way to break in is to play by the rules.
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Aug 27, 2016 18:05
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Chokes McGee posted:(Also hilariously, there's a genre for books without genres: literary fiction) "Literary fiction" is usually focused on shining a light on the human condition. It's not really a catch-all category. For instance, Chuck Palahniuk's work is neither genre nor literary fiction.
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Aug 27, 2016 18:11
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Literary fiction is definitely a very specific genre (you can sort of see how it was constructed, and by who, and how it is now maintained by critics) but it's become the yardstick used to define other genres so it's sort of an invisible genre. Also it's cool and good and does not deserve automatic disdain.
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Aug 27, 2016 21:23
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I'd argue that Chuck's books are totally genre because they sure as hell don't shine a light on the human condition. But they're being marketed as lit fic, that's true.
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Aug 27, 2016 21:28
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Lit fic gets a bum rap because people are primarily exposed to it through mandatory reading in high school, and nobody likes anything that reminds them of high school.
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Aug 27, 2016 22:26
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Naerasa posted:Lit fic gets a bum rap because people are primarily exposed to it through mandatory reading in high school, and nobody likes anything that reminds them of high school. Which is why I don't like this post 
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Aug 27, 2016 23:24
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I've been shopping around an adult contemporary fantasy for about four months now, and after several query revisions and 30-some rejections, the only feedback I've gotten on rejected full requests (of which there have been a couple) has been 'good characters, good writing, not what I'm looking for on my list'. I don't really know where to go from here. I've still got about a dozen queries out and I'm not ready to give up on this one yet, but I don't have any concrete feedback I can use to improve. The closest thing I've gotten to a critique was a rejection from an agent whose comment was 'I couldn't connect with the mc's problems because he's a white male' (verbatim), and that's not really something I can use. I guess I'm just venting since I have nowhere else to go with this poo poo, but it's been pretty stressful and getting good feedback is like pulling teeth. poo poo, at this point I'd even take 'Your book blows goats for the following reasons' if the reasons were stuff I could use. Getting published is hard 
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Aug 29, 2016 18:34
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"I can't connect to the MC's race and gender" is such a useless comment, and says more about the person who rejected you than the work. You could always try self publishing and get some feedback from that. Alternately, hit up a free beta reader or a friend or pay an editor to look it over?
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Aug 29, 2016 20:07
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TBH I'd just recommend that you write a new one while you send the first one out. Most writers first sell, like, the third or fifth or even tenth novel they write.
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Aug 29, 2016 20:15
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Keep writing and remember that this is largely a numbers game. There are more than 30 agents out there. Also, I wouldn't self-pub that book if I wanted to keep shopping it to trad pub.
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Aug 29, 2016 20:39
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Naerasa posted:I've been shopping around an adult contemporary fantasy for about four months now, and after several query revisions and 30-some rejections, the only feedback I've gotten on rejected full requests (of which there have been a couple) has been 'good characters, good writing, not what I'm looking for on my list'. I don't really know where to go from here. I've still got about a dozen queries out and I'm not ready to give up on this one yet, but I don't have any concrete feedback I can use to improve. The closest thing I've gotten to a critique was a rejection from an agent whose comment was 'I couldn't connect with the mc's problems because he's a white male' (verbatim), and that's not really something I can use. 30 is a very small number. It's meaningless. It's perfectly normal and nothing to feel discouraged over. Keep going and get feedback. Don't panic, don't get discouraged. Seriously, I can't stress this enough: 30 is nothing. Traditional is tough, but it's worth it.
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Aug 29, 2016 21:11
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Megazver posted:TBH I'd just recommend that you write a new one while you send the first one out. Most writers first sell, like, the third or fifth or even tenth novel they write. I'm on the second draft of something else now and am planning to have it ready for querying probably by the end of this year, if not sooner. I've also got outlines for the projects after that. This isn't my first novel queried either, but I've still only been at this for a couple of years so the rejection's still taking a toll. Danknificent posted:30 is a very small number. It's meaningless. It's perfectly normal and nothing to feel discouraged over. Keep going and get feedback. My issue with the 30 isn't so much the amount as it is the percentage of agents currently repping SFF. By my best estimation, I've either been rejected by or have open queries with about half the agents who rep what I'm selling and also aren't con artists. I don't mind getting a poo poo ton of rejections if I still have options available, but each rejection represents one fewer option out of a vanishingly small number of agents. HIJK posted:You could always try self publishing and get some feedback from that. Alternately, hit up a free beta reader or a friend or pay an editor to look it over? I've had the book read in full by four people in one writing group, six people in a second writing group, two colleagues, one parent (other parent is suddenly claiming to be illiterate, thanks dad), and at least two agents now. Everybody's feedback has either been 'its fine as it is' or 'its good but its not for me'. As for editors, I don't really have a thousand bucks to throw around to get someone to read it over for me. Self-publishing is a dead end for me too, because my success in self-publishing will hinge as much on my marketing accumen as it will my writing. Seeing as I'm bad at interacting with people and hated the 5+ years I spent working in marketing, it's really not the route I want to go down. Plus, I'm not ready to give up on getting this book traditionally published yet, and most of the agencies I've been querying have said they don't accept material that's already been self-published. I don't know if that's bullshit or not, but I'd rather not risk my already-slim chances. FormerPoster fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 30, 2016 00:04
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Naerasa posted:words I know the feeling of worrying about running out of agents to submit to; my solution was always to have another book ready to go if I reached the end of the line so I could immediately begin submitting it. Sounds like you're doing something similar. It's a solid strat. It's a mistake to get hung up on any one book. You're right to avoid self-publishing if you're serious about the majors. Your unpublished manuscripts will have value when you do break in. It's good to have plenty of material on hand when your agent or editor asks for something new. If there's really so few people repping what you're doing, consider going with broader subject matter for the next book if this one doesn't get through. There's no shame in a little analytical pandering when you're trying to get a foot in the door. Follow agents on Twitter and read their blogs, not just for submission tips, but for general market intel. #mswl is gold if interpreted responsibly. There's no easy answer to the initial gauntlet. It's part of the life. My grind took a few years. It's survivable. It sounds like you're doing things more or less the right way. Be strong, stay the course.
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Aug 30, 2016 00:44
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Danknificent posted:I know the feeling of worrying about running out of agents to submit to; my solution was always to have another book ready to go if I reached the end of the line so I could immediately begin submitting it. Sounds like you're doing something similar. It's a solid strat. It's a mistake to get hung up on any one book. Thanks for the encouagement, I really do appreciate it. I don't think my book is TOO out there that it's limiting my pool of agents; it's more that I keep running into agencies with the 'no from one is a no from all' policy. Seeing as there's only forty or so reputable agencies, that poo poo's really limiting.
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Aug 30, 2016 01:11
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Naerasa posted:I've had the book read in full by four people in one writing group, six people in a second writing group, two colleagues, one parent (other parent is suddenly claiming to be illiterate, thanks dad), and at least two agents now. Everybody's feedback has either been 'its fine as it is' or 'its good but its not for me'. As for editors, I don't really have a thousand bucks to throw around to get someone to read it over for me. Self-publishing is a dead end for me too, because my success in self-publishing will hinge as much on my marketing accumen as it will my writing. Seeing as I'm bad at interacting with people and hated the 5+ years I spent working in marketing, it's really not the route I want to go down. Plus, I'm not ready to give up on getting this book traditionally published yet, and most of the agencies I've been querying have said they don't accept material that's already been self-published. I don't know if that's bullshit or not, but I'd rather not risk my already-slim chances. That does suck man  It may be that there's no room for it currently in the traditional market. You may not be able to sell it this year. But that doesn't mean you can't sell it next year if the queries don't pan out. Don't give up.
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Aug 30, 2016 01:14
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Keep at it, my friend, and remember that by getting to the querying state you've already made it further than a lot of people have. Sometimes that poo poo takes time. Hell, Joe Abercrombie queried First Law for over a year before someone accepted it iirc, so if you like what you got, don't quit on it.
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Aug 30, 2016 01:18
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Thanks for the goon-peptalk, guys. It always helps to get support from people who know what I'm going through. Thanks to the pick-me-up, I just sent out three more queries today so hopefully those will take the sting out of form rejection on the full that put me in a funk this morning.
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Aug 30, 2016 02:23
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Naerasa posted:
I want to get my novel read by that many people. Can you expand a bit on how you did this? Were they in person writing groups or online? How many of the people who read it were SFF writers themselves? And do you think it was worth the effort, considering that apparently that feedback wasn't all that helpful to you? Thanks.
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Aug 30, 2016 02:59
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give up. that's what i did and it feels great.
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Aug 30, 2016 03:21
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Sailor Viy posted:I want to get my novel read by that many people. Can you expand a bit on how you did this? Were they in person writing groups or online? How many of the people who read it were SFF writers themselves? And do you think it was worth the effort, considering that apparently that feedback wasn't all that helpful to you? I went on meetup.com and typed in 'writing groups' for my area. Now, granted, I live in the Bay Area, so there's no shortage of people with spare time and big dreams. If you're trying to get together a writing group in Peotone, IL, you're probably not going to have the kind of success I did. For the one group, it's a large group focused on general writing (everything from poetry to toastmaster's speeches), and the other group is a smaller group focused specifically on people writing SFF novels. As for whether or not it's been worth it, it definitely has been. When I say the feedback I'm getting now isn't doing much for me, it's because I've spent over a year beating up the the book with those groups to get it to this point. It's only now that I've put in all their feedback that I have it to the point where everyone's saying 'yeah, it's solid the way it is'. I've done everything from dropping plot-lines to cutting perspective characters based on their feedback and I can say without a doubt that my book is better for it. Now, as to how I got other people like friends and family to read it, that's what I'm actually pretty pleased at. My last two books, I didn't get any interest from friends and family beyond the first couple of chapters. One noteworthy moment is when my husband refused to finish my last book, on the grounds that 'It's like Ready Player One - and that's not a compliment'. With that sick burn rolling around in my head, I went back and wrote something better, and he actually finished it and claims to have enjoyed it. Considering he's been more than willing to rip my poo poo apart in the past, his approval actually means something to me. More than one of my friends read the thing from front to back without prompting, too, and that's some of the coolest poo poo I've ever experienced. Those interactions more than anything else are the reason I still want to keep trying with this book. If I can get picky and/or disinterested readers to finish it without compensation or nagging, then I know I've got something.
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Aug 30, 2016 03:56
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crabrock posted:give up. that's what i did and it feels great. e/n is leaking. mods????
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Aug 30, 2016 05:46
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crabrock posted:give up. that's what i did and it feels great. 
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Aug 30, 2016 06:24
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Naerasa posted:The closest thing I've gotten to a critique was a rejection from an agent whose comment was 'I couldn't connect with the mc's problems because he's a white male' (verbatim), welcome to 2016, ha ha ha
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Aug 30, 2016 08:45
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A new, concrete example of feedback: I submitted the first chapter and query to a big writing contest a few weeks ago, and didn't get any requests for any more material. I just got the feedback from one of the judges. "Your [entry] was particularly astonishing in its creativity - I thought back on it a lot.The style feels like China Mielville -- fun, but not my personal strong point for mentoring. (It's a book I'd buy but couldn't help coach.) This is incredibly creative, and honestly I'm surprised someone else didn't pick it up. I suspect that's just because of style preferences." Feedback from another judge: "I just wanted to let you know that the good writing and characters in your entry caught my eye. You were in my maybe or yes folder, though unfortunately I didn't have time to request pages. Personal taste will certain be a factor but good writing shows." So yeah. People have read it, people have liked it, but......... I dunno. It just isn't working for anybody? FormerPoster fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 30, 2016 16:03
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I'll read a couple of chapters if you want to. I run a small press (make of that what you will).
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Aug 30, 2016 16:14
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i dunno dude, those sound like really encouraging results, and I think now you're just playing a numbers game. Find that dude/lady who wants to go all in on it. If all else fails, shelve it, write another, and then when shopping that one around you can be like "also i have another book." i have no idea if that's attractive to agents, but if i were an agent i would think "hey somebody who wrote a book I like also has another book ALREADY DONE i may also like, what a good client!"
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Aug 30, 2016 16:15
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ravenkult posted:I'll read a couple of chapters if you want to. I run a small press (make of that what you will). Sure, you got PMs? If you do, I'll just PM you a couple of chapters, since I've already got every possible permutation of partial requests ready to send at a moment's notice. crabrock posted:i dunno dude, those sound like really encouraging results, and I think now you're just playing a numbers game. Find that dude/lady who wants to go all in on it. If all else fails, shelve it, write another, and then when shopping that one around you can be like "also i have another book." i have no idea if that's attractive to agents, but if i were an agent i would think "hey somebody who wrote a book I like also has another book ALREADY DONE i may also like, what a good client!" It sure worked for Brandon Sanderson
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Aug 30, 2016 16:19
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Nah shoot it selfpub@mail.com
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Aug 30, 2016 16:20
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Cool. As I'm looking at my first few chapters now readying them to send, I'm already seeing some stuff I want to change, so I think I'll actually hold off on sending for a little while. I'll keep your email in mind though!
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Aug 30, 2016 16:27
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ITS YOUR FUNERAL
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Aug 30, 2016 16:28
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Naerasa posted:words Thanks, I'm gonna do this!
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Aug 31, 2016 08:16
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Naerasa posted:So yeah. People have read it, people have liked it, but......... I dunno. It just isn't working for anybody? sounds like the work is good enough to be published, now you need to get better at being lucky
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Sep 2, 2016 10:40
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Naerasa posted:So yeah. People have read it, people have liked it, but......... I dunno. It just isn't working for anybody? Never not publish, especially for $0.99 (or free if it's your first few).* If you've got positive feedback, then hit up some promotional lists and also try to get some free copies to various reviewers, especially a few weeks/one month ahead of promotion—but there's nothing wrong with taking a shot if it's already been released. Author Marketing Club is p. good stuff in my opinion, paying $24.95 for the premium stuff is eehhhhnnn but they have a couple of stupidly good tools. * Base advice comes by way of Moana, this author has put ~800 books into people's hands and only 75 of them were paid, do not trust advice in any way shape or form Chokes McGee fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 14:22
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whoops assuming you're going self pub, ignore if not 
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Sep 2, 2016 14:24
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I started writing a contemporary romance novel, and has anyone else queried or self pubbed under a pseudonym? I assume self publishing like that is as easy as putting in a different name on the form, but how does actually talking to an agent work?
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Sep 7, 2016 04:07
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You use your real name in your queries, but you can mention your intention to publish the particular work under pseudonym.
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Sep 7, 2016 13:47
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The Shunn Manuscript example I've seen posted around also notes where you should put the name you're publishing under and where to put the name that goes on your check.
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Sep 7, 2016 16:12
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Danknificent posted:You use your real name in your queries, but you can mention your intention to publish the particular work under pseudonym. This. Theoretically I think you could probably get away with contacting your agent under your pseudonym and signing a contract of representation with your pseud if you've set up a doing-business-as under that name, but that feels really sketchy to me and I wouldn't be surprised if it undermined your relationship with the agent. Not worth it. If you don't trust an agent your querying to exercise good judgement about your penname, you shouldn't be querying that agent. For self-publishing, it's easy; you can put whatever author attribution you want in during the publishing process on basically every platform.
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Sep 7, 2016 16:51
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