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Why do sci-fi authors seems to have a huge hard-on for ridiculous authoritarian caricature strawmen states? I re-read Coyote recently and am reading Coyote Rising and both the United Republic of America and the Western Hemisphere Union are straight-up no-irony 1984 wannabes. Is it really as wide-spread as it seems or is this a case of me having read most of the Baen catalog instead of actual good books?
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Aug 28, 2016 17:35
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:it's partially a novelized kung fu epic You may be interested in something like Louis Cha's "The Book and the Sword."
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Aug 28, 2016 17:40
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WarLocke posted:Is it really as wide-spread as it seems or is this a case of me having read most of the Baen catalog instead of actual good books? edit: Unrelated, but apparently I completely missed that Catherynne M Valente put out a sequel to The Habitation of the Blessed. Anyone read that? I'm mostly interesting on whether it closes the story or if there's another book coming. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Aug 28, 2016 |
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Aug 28, 2016 18:32
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anilEhilated posted:I don't know much about Baen's catalog, but anyone that's willing to publish Kratman gotta have a fine sense of appreciation for complete nutjobs. Jim Baen basically would publish people he knew/liked. Apparently he was kind of wacky because, well, Ringo and Kratman, but you also have Eric Flint and David Drake in there...
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Aug 28, 2016 18:35
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WarLocke posted:Why do sci-fi authors seems to have a huge hard-on for ridiculous authoritarian caricature strawmen states? I re-read Coyote recently and am reading Coyote Rising and both the United Republic of America and the Western Hemisphere Union are straight-up no-irony 1984 wannabes. Ehh, I don't think it's that widespread, although another cliché that turns up a lot is a bumbling, ineffectual government and both are basically sides of the "Government sucks, google Ron Paul" line of thinking. Modern SF seems to mostly ignore government/politics altogether (which is usually something you can get away with), or there's at least some nuance. E.g. the imperial government structure in the world of Fifth Season is functional and effective and meets most of the needs the setting imposes on human society. Psst, on this topic in particular, everyone should read The Traitor Baru Cormorant Most editors worth their salt should be rolling their eyes at Big Brother pastiches by now, surely.
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Aug 28, 2016 18:41
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Yeah we've 'graduated' to hunger games pastiches by now
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Aug 28, 2016 18:53
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Antti posted:Psst, on this topic in particular, everyone should read The Traitor Baru Cormorant That book freaking scarred me and I need the sequel to come out ASAP.
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Aug 28, 2016 19:01
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I liked the Philip K. Dick novel (Divine Invasion?) where the dystopia was just "Welp, the Catholic Church and the Communist Party have merged and they rule the world now  "
Clark Nova fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Aug 28, 2016 |
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Aug 28, 2016 19:42
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Clark Nova posted:I liked the Philip K. Dick novel (Divine Invasion?) where the dystopia was just "Welp, the Catholic Church and the Communist Party have merged and they rule the world now paging commienedflanders
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Aug 28, 2016 19:47
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The Catholic Church ruling the world is a pretty scary thought.
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Aug 28, 2016 19:48
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anilEhilated posted:I don't know much about Baen's catalog, but anyone that's willing to publish Kratman gotta have a fine sense of appreciation for complete nutjobs. The second book is just as good as the first one. There's a 3rd book written called The Spindle of Necessity. But Valente split with Night Shade Books when they were going under and hasn't said anything about it getting published for a few years now.
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Aug 28, 2016 19:57
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drat. Well, still something to look out for. Thanks.
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Aug 28, 2016 20:01
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:I suppose a great deal of what makes Bridge of Birds very good is I've not read a book quite like it, it's partially a novelized kung fu epic but also much more than that.
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Aug 29, 2016 01:38
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Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll look them up!
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Aug 29, 2016 03:01
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anilEhilated posted:drat. Well, still something to look out for. Thanks. Valente has claimed for a while she was going to do a Kickstarter for the third Prester John book once she wrapped up her YA Fairyland books, but the last one of those came out in March and there haven't been any updates. It's a shame because those are probably the most underrated things she's ever written and I'd love to see the trilogy get finished up.
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Aug 29, 2016 03:29
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coyo7e posted:Look up the Judge Dee novels which were "translated" by a guy named iirc, Robert Hans von Gulik. It's van Gulik iirc. The first one, Celebrated Cases of Judge Dee, is a translation from Chinese and has no kung fu; the others, I think, are imitations, and may or may not. If you like it there's also at least one book of Magistrate Bao's cases; I haven't read it though. The ultimate kung fu epic is The Water Margin (it goes by several titles, but the author is Shi Nai'an); there are half a dozen manuscripts and translations, but the cheapest is the Foreign Languages Press one by Sidney Shapiro. fritz posted:You may be interested in something like Louis Cha's "The Book and the Sword." He's also known as Jin Yong. Antti posted:Ehh, I don't think it's that widespread, although another cliché that turns up a lot is a bumbling, ineffectual government and both are basically sides of the "Government sucks, google Ron Paul" line of thinking. Modern SF seems to mostly ignore government/politics altogether (which is usually something you can get away with), or there's at least some nuance. E.g. the imperial government structure in the world of Fifth Season is functional and effective and meets most of the needs the setting imposes on human society. You seem to be arguing, perhaps unconsciously, that political engagement is limited to wondering whether or not the government sucks. It's not, and by "ignoring government/politics altogether" a writer cedes ground to someone else's explicit political opinions. Every piece of fantasy/sf is incredibly political by its refusal to take the real world for granted, and so can't ignore politics, by definition; even if only implicitly, they're there, so the genre has to do it properly. Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 29, 2016 05:26
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I will never read this book nor should you but the cover is glorious: https://www.amazon.com/Preppers-Crucible--Two-Post-Apocalyptic-ebook/dp/B01590M9O0/ref=sr_1_30?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1472449217&sr=1-30
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Aug 29, 2016 06:40
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House Louse posted:You seem to be arguing, perhaps unconsciously, that political engagement is limited to wondering whether or not the government sucks. It's not, and by "ignoring government/politics altogether" a writer cedes ground to someone else's explicit political opinions. Every piece of fantasy/sf is incredibly political by its refusal to take the real world for granted, and so can't ignore politics, by definition; even if only implicitly, they're there, so the genre has to do it properly. What I was consciously arguing was that sci fi writers limit political engagement to whether or not (the) government sucks and I am hoping to read more SF where the scope is broader than that. What they do is they ignore politics/government by not including any overt examples of it. I wasn't trying to say science fiction can ever be totally apolitical. I have a political science degree, I know what you're talking about, but I was writing in my conversational register, where if you launch into an explanation of how everything is actually political, people just stare at you.
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Aug 29, 2016 06:50
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House Louse posted:It's van Guilk iirc. The first one, Celebrated Cases of Judge Dee, is a translation from Chinese and has no kung fu; the others, I think, are imitations, and may or may not. If you like it there's also at least one book of Magistrate Bao's cases; I haven't read it though. The ultimate kung fu epic is The Water Margin (it goes by several titles, but the author is Shi Nai'an); there are half a dozen manuscripts and translations, but the cheapest is the Foreign Languages Press one by Sidney Shapiro. Nah, if you want a kung fu epic, Journey to the West is the way to go. It's a bit repetitive, so should be read in short chunks at a time (it's one of the original adventure serials), but if you want sweet-rear end ancient Chinese action, that's where you want to be. Water Margin is mostly just a poor man's Romance of the Three Kingdoms with an entire cast of raging dickbags (and yes, I say that knowing what assholes the cast of Three Kingdoms can often be). It's why I have sympathy for the abridged, bowdlerised seventy-chapter version where all the bandits get rounded up and executed by the government at the end.
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Aug 29, 2016 07:28
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I've only read Waley's translation but I could not stand Monkey and that's why I don't want to recommend it! (Or read an accurate translation.)Antti posted:I have a political science degree, I know what you're talking about, but I was writing in my conversational register, where if you launch into an explanation of how everything is actually political, people just stare at you. Fair enough, though I don't think it's something you can "get away with ignoring". Antti posted:What I was consciously arguing was that sci fi writers limit political engagement to whether or not (the) government sucks and I am hoping to read more SF where the scope is broader than that. What they do is they ignore politics/government by not including any overt examples of it. I just don't think this is true though, for more than a few idiots in America anyway; that's part of why I read your post the way I did. Think of Iain M. Banks, Ken Macleod, Kim Stanley Robinson, or The Dispossessed. Check this out: http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/politics and I hope you find something interesting there. It's chronological so you might want to skip to the end.
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Aug 29, 2016 12:27
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WarLocke posted:Jim Baen basically would publish people he knew/liked. Apparently he was kind of wacky because, well, Ringo and Kratman, but you also have Eric Flint and David Drake in there... And Bujold, who's worth any number of Kratmans.
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Aug 29, 2016 12:30
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House Louse posted:I just don't think this is true though, for more than a few idiots in America anyway; that's part of why I read your post the way I did. Think of Iain M. Banks, Ken Macleod, Kim Stanley Robinson, or The Dispossessed. Check this out: http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/politics and I hope you find something interesting there. It's chronological so you might want to skip to the end. Yes I've read multiple works from all the people you listed. The original post was about a person frustrated with this problem of the question of government and politics being reduced to "it sucks" and I said it wasn't widespread. Like we're all agreeing here but getting bogged down in my poor phrasing.
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Aug 29, 2016 12:36
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Antti posted:Yes I've read multiple works from all the people you listed. The original post was about a person frustrated with this problem of the question of government and politics being reduced to "it sucks" and I said it wasn't widespread. I'm sorry, I was confusing you with WarLocke! 
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Aug 29, 2016 16:42
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House Louse posted:It's van Guilk iirc. The first one, Celebrated Cases of Judge Dee, is a translation from Chinese and has no kung fu; the others, I think, are imitations, and may or may not. If you like it there's also at least one book of Magistrate Bao's cases; I haven't read it though. I also don't recall much fighting in Bridge of Birds, but it does read a lot like a Judge Dee mystery.
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Aug 29, 2016 17:42
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The Triumph of Henpecked Ho is the only big fighting I remember.
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Aug 29, 2016 18:06
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I'm reading the fifth season and I know there's a lot of hinting at post or inter, I guess, apocalypse science fantasy but I did a double take when one of the chapters involves someone describing things she sees and mentions a room "that holds racks and racks of flat trays like cookie sheets" which I am convinced is a server farm .
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Aug 29, 2016 18:38
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House Louse posted:It's van Guilk iirc. It's van Gulik, which means "from/of Gulik" 
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Aug 29, 2016 18:49
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Anyone have opinions on Etched City? I'm about 2/3rds through and its pretty interesting. Its not what I thought it would be, I can't tell if I like it or not, I guess it depends on where it goes with what its doing. The world is slowly becoming more surreal and dreamlike, its very strange since the start of the book was like post apocalyptic cowboys.
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Aug 29, 2016 18:51
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Darth Walrus posted:Nah, if you want a kung fu epic, Journey to the West is the way to go. It's a bit repetitive, so should be read in short chunks at a time (it's one of the original adventure serials), but if you want sweet-rear end ancient Chinese action, that's where you want to be. Water Margin is mostly just a poor man's Romance of the Three Kingdoms with an entire cast of raging dickbags (and yes, I say that knowing what assholes the cast of Three Kingdoms can often be). It's why I have sympathy for the abridged, bowdlerised seventy-chapter version where all the bandits get rounded up and executed by the government at the end. Haha, what? That's like telling someone who is interested in European fantasy "Nah, skip that Tolkien stuff, if you want a real fantasy epic, Beowulf is the way to go." Also Water Margin is about as much a "poor man's romance of the three kingdoms" as the Aeneid is a poor man's Odyssey, they're pretty much totally different works.
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Aug 29, 2016 22:15
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General Emergency posted:I will never read this book nor should you but the cover is glorious: https://www.amazon.com/Preppers-Crucible--Two-Post-Apocalyptic-ebook/dp/B01590M9O0/ref=sr_1_30?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1472449217&sr=1-30 "Wow, Alan, how did you make this cover in only five minutes?"
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Aug 29, 2016 22:23
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ZerodotJander posted:Haha, what? That's like telling someone who is interested in European fantasy "Nah, skip that Tolkien stuff, if you want a real fantasy epic, Beowulf is the way to go." Also Water Margin is about as much a "poor man's romance of the three kingdoms" as the Aeneid is a poor man's Odyssey, they're pretty much totally different works. JttW is a pretty fundamental and influential work tho, and I don't think comparing it to Beowulf is fair.
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Aug 29, 2016 23:04
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Reason posted:Anyone have opinions on Etched City? I'm about 2/3rds through and its pretty interesting. Its not what I thought it would be, I can't tell if I like it or not, I guess it depends on where it goes with what its doing. The world is slowly becoming more surreal and dreamlike, its very strange since the start of the book was like post apocalyptic cowboys. I liked it a lot and wish the author would write more.
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Aug 29, 2016 23:04
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Asking because I accidentally started a book club because of a FB conversation: My little club wants to read some military sci fi, and if I remember right, some of the "classic" works in the genre were sort of written as direct responses to each other, but I can't remember which those were. I feel like it'd be worthwhile to read them in an order that takes that into consideration. Anybody know what I'm talking about? I want to say it was something to do with Starship Troopers and Forever War, but I may be making that up. Old Man's War is the other one we're looking at.
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Aug 29, 2016 23:49
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ZerodotJander posted:Haha, what? That's like telling someone who is interested in European fantasy "Nah, skip that Tolkien stuff, if you want a real fantasy epic, Beowulf is the way to go." Also Water Margin is about as much a "poor man's romance of the three kingdoms" as the Aeneid is a poor man's Odyssey, they're pretty much totally different works. The plots are quite different, but the tone and chapter-to-chapter content is pretty similar. It's a sprawling epic about the rise and fall of a virtuous rogue state in the twilight years of a dynasty, where the enormous cast of characters politick, backstab, and engage in great episodic adventures and feats of derring-do. Even the action is written in a very similar way - it's very functional, with much more of an emphasis on the results than the process, as opposed to Journey to the West's lovingly-described magical brawls. That's before you get into how many members of the Liangshan bandits are either modelled on or deliberately, consciously imitating ROTC cast members. There's rumours that Luo Guanzhong, the author of ROTC, also had a hand in Water Margin, and it would honestly make a fair bit of sense, though Water Margin's author - or authors - might just have been very heavily inspired by the earlier work. Your analogy doesn't really work all that well either because both the fourteenth-century Water Margin/TOTC and the sixteenth-century JTTW are both inspirations for different parts of the modern kung fu epic. It's not like one was heavily derived from the other (there's not much inspiration from the earlier works in JTTW, and I rather get the impression that its author would rather have no part of Shi Naian, Luo Guanzhong, and their blasphemous, Taoist-sympathising ways), they're separate parts of the same whole.
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Aug 30, 2016 00:47
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MockingQuantum posted:Asking because I accidentally started a book club because of a FB conversation: Also Germline is fun because it's got a novel narrator, and Forever War is great. ZerodotJander posted:Haha, what? That's like telling someone who is interested in European fantasy "Nah, skip that Tolkien stuff, if you want a real fantasy epic, Beowulf is the way to go." Also Water Margin is about as much a "poor man's romance of the three kingdoms" as the Aeneid is a poor man's Odyssey, they're pretty much totally different works. If you're interested in Journey to the West or the Tao Te Ching or I Ching (or also the Art of War), I'd recommend the Shambhala Publications translations, they're really well written and easy to read compared to a few others I've got my hands on over the years. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 30, 2016 01:12
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MockingQuantum posted:Asking because I accidentally started a book club because of a FB conversation: I don't know if Forever War was purposely written as a response to Starship Troopers, but it certainly works perfectly as one.
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Aug 30, 2016 02:09
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MockingQuantum posted:Asking because I accidentally started a book club because of a FB conversation: Seconding ST/FW as a good pair even if they weren't meant that way. I'll recommend David Drake, he wrote a lot of stories trying to exorcise he demons he brought back from Vietnam. Glen Cook has some good stuff in milsf; Passage at Arms, Black Company, Shadowline all spring to mind.
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Aug 30, 2016 02:45
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Ornamented Death posted:I don't know if Forever War was purposely written as a response to Starship Troopers, but it certainly works perfectly as one. Not only this, but both books are great. Old Man's War is, imo, mediocre at its very best.
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Aug 30, 2016 02:49
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Solitair posted:"Wow, Alan, how did you make this cover in only five minutes?" That's actually one of the default covers in KDP's cover creator, so it probably took even less than five minutes to make!
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Aug 30, 2016 03:08
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And there I was thinking they got an especially patriotic eagle to pose stoically for it.
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Aug 30, 2016 03:15
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