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Unknown Quantity posted:The only major problem part of controllers I feel are the ones that crap out numerical to-hit penalties and multi-target hard control. Which...is mostly limited to Wizard and Psion. Invoker I think has a burst Stun as a L1 daily but it dazes them, and while you can mitigate that, they tend to have to take a negative to stun something. Hunters can apply -6 to hits in a burst if built "correctly".
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Aug 31, 2016 17:12
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Klungar posted:Hunters can apply -6 to hits in a burst if built "correctly". Why the scare quotes?
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Aug 31, 2016 17:22
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thespaceinvader posted:Why the scare quotes? Oh, don't get me wrong, I love drat Bugs, but the current discussion seems to be suggesting that huge penalties to hit is a non-positive thing.
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Aug 31, 2016 17:25
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Klungar posted:Oh, don't get me wrong, I love drat Bugs, but the current discussion seems to be suggesting that huge penalties to hit is a non-positive thing. It's a positive thing from a "powerful character" point of view, but a negative thing from a "keeps anything interesting from happening" point of view. I don't really want a character around who prevents the monsters from doing anything cool - that's like half the fun of the game.
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Aug 31, 2016 20:20
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Someone I know is thinking about starting up a 4e game but he is concerned he tends to have a fairly mixed group show up on the day. There are probably 4 people who are there 100% of the time and 3 people who have much more mixed attendance levels. Do you guys have any advice for managing party composition and encounter scaling?
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Aug 31, 2016 22:50
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"Oh hey, look who stopped solid snaking in a box the last month and a half. Welcome back <PC>." -Actual conversation from one of my games
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Aug 31, 2016 23:00
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Someone I know is thinking about starting up a 4e game but he is concerned he tends to have a fairly mixed group show up on the day. There are probably 4 people who are there 100% of the time and 3 people who have much more mixed attendance levels. Encounter scaling is super easy in 4e unless you're involving solos. So you're good there. Add or subtract one dude for each extra or missing player. As for how to handle it... We ignore it. They're just not contributing this session.
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Aug 31, 2016 23:06
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Someone I know is thinking about starting up a 4e game but he is concerned he tends to have a fairly mixed group show up on the day. There are probably 4 people who are there 100% of the time and 3 people who have much more mixed attendance levels.
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Aug 31, 2016 23:13
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4e is an odd beast in that it generally requires all three of Leader, Striker and Defender to make encounters last the right length of time. You can sort of make up for a missing Defender with a tanky Striker with off-defender capabilities (Avenger, Ranger), or (more reliably) replace a Striker with a few sufficiently punchy Defenders (Non-brawler Fighters, Swordmages, Paladins). A Leader can be replaced-ish by a steady supply of items, but it's a band-aid fix. Controllers...nobody particularly misses the Controller unless they consistently make big plays that change the tide. EDIT: Honestly, a party can consist solely of Defender, Leader and Striker for a 3-person gig. For four, you definitely want either two Defenders or two Strikers. Two Leaders can work but they need to be able to add extra attacks or damage and synergize with the rest of the party. Unknown Quantity fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 23:22
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ImpactVector posted:4e can kind of slow down if you don't have enough damage in the party, so you may want to encourage the group to do at least a halfway decent job of distributing the roles. If you have 2 defenders in the 100% crew and your only strikers are the flakes, then things may go kind of slowly. Yeah this is what I meant by party design sorry - dealing with an AFK guy in universe is easy. I was thinking you're best off making the 100% crew the leader defender and two strikers (Due to the loss of a player in my game the core 4 has only one striker which can be very sad), and then letting the flakes play whatever but giving them a strong guiding hand towards striker things, or at least classes like the Bezerker and Brawler Fighter than can play off the primary defender or Pyromancers or Evokers that are doing pseudo striker things. Edit: So a 4+3 party would look like Core: Defender Leader Striker Striker Flakes: Striker Striker / Bezerker / 2nd Defender Striker / Controller Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 23:28
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What if controllers worked something like the GW2 defiance bar or FF13's stagger mechanic where instead of getting their disabling stuff right off the bat, they could build up to a momentary disable+some sort of nasty debuff? Make them work for it and let the enemy try to mitigate it by attempting to avoid the controller long enough for the build-up to fade.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:37
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Obligatum VII posted:What if controllers worked something like the GW2 defiance bar or FF13's stagger mechanic where instead of getting their disabling stuff right off the bat, they could build up to a momentary disable+some sort of nasty debuff? Make them work for it and let the enemy try to mitigate it by attempting to avoid the controller long enough for the build-up to fade. The big advantage to having optimized controllers is to shut down something(s) immediately while the team prioritizes other threats; delay their control and you might as well have another striker (if they dead, they controlled). GW2 break bars aren't quite the same; they're a mechanic that lets control effects still do something against boss-type enemies that're otherwise not affected by things like dazes/stuns/fear/etc. Pretty much they either serve to allow the team to interrupt powerful moves or expose the enemy to more damage. In my mind the 4e analog would be something like letting the boss ignore status effects applied from powers at the cost of taking additional damage from the attack.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:55
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Additional optimized strikers can make up for almost anything but a leader, I find.
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Sep 1, 2016 06:33
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Generic Octopus posted:The big advantage to having optimized controllers is to shut down something(s) immediately while the team prioritizes other threats; delay their control and you might as well have another striker (if they dead, they controlled). Well, that gets into the problem that 4E as a system heavily favors alpha strikes way too much. Solving that problem in a way that doesn't make the game a slog is a lot more difficult though.
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Sep 1, 2016 06:51
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Someone I know is thinking about starting up a 4e game but he is concerned he tends to have a fairly mixed group show up on the day. There are probably 4 people who are there 100% of the time and 3 people who have much more mixed attendance levels.
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Sep 1, 2016 07:55
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Hey, what's a good way to represent a Saturday Morning type villain who the party isn't ready to fight juuuust yet? I don't want them to be useless against this guy, but I don't want him to be directly fighting them either, rather, I'd like them to be trying to foil his plans, and capable of taking his minions, while he fucks around and then makes a tactical retreat. Do I just flat out tell the party he's too high levelled to directly fight right now? Probably, but are there any interesting mechanics to enforce it?
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Sep 4, 2016 15:07
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Don't put him directly in harm's way. Trap the PCs in his DUNGEON OF DOOOOOOM and have him mock them remotely.
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Sep 4, 2016 16:08
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Someone I know is thinking about starting up a 4e game but he is concerned he tends to have a fairly mixed group show up on the day. There are probably 4 people who are there 100% of the time and 3 people who have much more mixed attendance levels. This has been replied to already but this bears mentioning. 4e basically balances around one PC = one monster per encounter as a basis, assuming everything is appropriately leveled. This holds true with as few as 4 PCs and as many as 6 but if you go above or below that guideline things get a little worrysome. It's not hard to balance on the fly - just add or subtract monsters as appropriate depending on the the encounter size. What can make this more complicated is actually on the player side of the board. Multiple leaders or defenders can radically change the way a DM is forced to design an encounter, at least if she wants it to be any fun; action economy is king here, and having more actions on the PC side of the board, especially when those actions include total board lockdown on the menu. I would say push the part-timers toward classes that are either strikers or which are fun but fill no concrete role (Warlock, for example, or Monk).
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Sep 4, 2016 19:22
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Mendrian posted:This has been replied to already but this bears mentioning. Meanwhile if you have more than six characters, and let's say a majority of those characters are out of position for whatever reason, then someone's about to get dogpiled with monsters.
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Sep 4, 2016 20:06
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Another element is that 4e's math relies to a certain extent on teamwork and allies giving each other extra attacks and buffs and heals- one on one the monsters are on average a little more resilient in terms of how many hits they can take, but it's in the synergy that the PCs have the advantage. In a theoretical solo combat (which isn't ideal in many RPGs, but sometimes a story can lead in that direction) a PC may have to really nova.
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Sep 4, 2016 20:53
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Meanwhile if you have more than six characters, and let's say a majority of those characters are out of position for whatever reason, then someone's about to get dogpiled with monsters. Yes, also this. I find large groups work best with multiple engagements occurring across at least two fronts or else you end up with one guy getting hit seven times, which is not really intended balance.
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Sep 4, 2016 21:16
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Moriatti posted:Hey, what's a good way to represent a Saturday Morning type villain who the party isn't ready to fight juuuust yet? I'd give him a lot of defensive immediates and auras and stances and such that emphasize just how superior he is. Cutting arrows out of the air. Defensive stance with huge damage reductions so that they only ever manage to scratch him. No-sells status effects. Etc. After a round or two of this, something happens and he leaves. The bomb goes off and he jumps through the hole and leaves you for his minions to finish off. Sub-boss arrives and does the "You can go, boss, I got this" thing. Something like that.
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Sep 5, 2016 06:40
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Other stuff ive seen work is have him impose big environmental effects, particularly if you can contrive an excuse for them to be fighting alongside allies. For example if he pops 20 allied minions a turn, converts all terrain to difficult and throws a big rock at PCs from range he feels dangerous while not actually doing a ton.
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Sep 5, 2016 07:15
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Meanwhile if you have more than six characters, and let's say a majority of those characters are out of position for whatever reason, then someone's about to get dogpiled with monsters. Do you suffer sleepless nights from tearing that newbie a new rear end in a top hat? 
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Sep 5, 2016 11:09
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isndl posted:Do you suffer sleepless nights from tearing that newbie a new rear end in a top hat? The first or the second time?
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Sep 5, 2016 12:17
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I like the environmental hazards, and will no doubt use it when I run the first part of Modron March.Khizan posted:I'd give him a lot of defensive immediates and auras and stances and such that emphasize just how superior he is. Cutting arrows out of the air. Defensive stance with huge damage reductions so that they only ever manage to scratch him. No-sells status effects. Etc. After a round or two of this, something happens and he leaves. The bomb goes off and he jumps through the hole and leaves you for his minions to finish off. Sub-boss arrives and does the "You can go, boss, I got this" thing. Something like that. This works perfectly with what I need, since I wanted him to have an elite zombie that used to be a member of the Wemic's (now dead) pack. Now just to design the encounter proper.
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Sep 5, 2016 16:24
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Probably one for the CharOp thread, but if I was making a Ranger/Bard hybrid, what's a reliable way of generating RBAs without using your standard to make good use of powers like Lesser dimensional step? Rebounding bow is an obvious standout. Basic idea is ranged rangers are kind boring to play, so spam out the twin strikes with standards but have a fun selection of bard powers to hoover up all your interrupts with. If I can reliably generate some RBAs I can even throw Skald's aura on it. Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 02:07
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Probably one for the CharOp thread, but if I was making a Ranger/Bard hybrid, what's a reliable way of generating RBAs without using your standard to make good use of powers like Lesser dimensional step? A friend who's playing a Warlord.
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Sep 6, 2016 02:11
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Really Pants posted:A friend who's playing a Warlord. Yeah, I'm one of the flakes in the earlier core/flakes discussion so I was trying to be self sufficient but this is an obvious winner.
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Sep 6, 2016 02:18
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Spitting Cobra Stance is a level 5 ranger daily that lets you make an RBA against any enemy within 5 that moves closer to you, so you can aggressively zone people.
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Sep 6, 2016 05:44
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Probably one for the CharOp thread, but if I was making a Ranger/Bard hybrid, what's a reliable way of generating RBAs without using your standard to make good use of powers like Lesser dimensional step? If you post in CharOp I'll tell you that Ranger|Bard is a pretty awful hybrid so
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Sep 6, 2016 17:45
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thespaceinvader posted:If you post in CharOp I'll tell you that Ranger|Bard is a pretty awful hybrid so Yeah. Just make a Prescient Bard. If you have to poach from another archery class, grab Seeker stuff. The class itself is garbage, but the free at-will and some of the powers might be worth the power-swap feat, since they're Wis-based Ranged Weapon powers and you'll be CHA/WIS anyway.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:55
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If all you want to do is Twin Strike with a Bard, just go Half-Elf Bard and poach Twin Strike.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:21
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It is kind of strange, that despite how bad the Ranger|Bard Hybrid is, the Barbarian|Bard Hybrid is deceptively good.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:27
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Madmarker posted:It is kind of strange, that despite how bad the Ranger|Bard Hybrid is, the Barbarian|Bard Hybrid is deceptively good. Because Barbs have a CHA secondary sub-leader build so yeah. Unknown Quantity posted:Yeah. Just make a Prescient Bard. If you have to poach from another archery class, grab Seeker stuff. The class itself is garbage, but the free at-will and some of the powers might be worth the power-swap feat, since they're Wis-based Ranged Weapon powers and you'll be CHA/WIS anyway. Pretty much this. Prescient isn't the best Bard build but it's still a Bard.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:42
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Madmarker posted:It is kind of strange, that despite how bad the Ranger|Bard Hybrid is, the Barbarian|Bard Hybrid is deceptively good. What would you do for stats on the Barbarian|Bard Hybrid? I'd imagine it would play like a Skald and you go for non-attack based bard powers?
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Sep 6, 2016 22:36
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Yukari posted:What would you do for stats on the Barbarian|Bard Hybrid? I'd imagine it would play like a Skald and you go for non-attack based bard powers? STR|CHA probably, though your defences suffer mightily.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:55
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thespaceinvader posted:If you post in CharOp I'll tell you that Ranger|Bard is a pretty awful hybrid so What's wrong with it? On paper it looks okay - you're basically a Ranger with a bunch of immediate interrupts from bard. If I could crack the RBA problem you don't even really need Charisma. A melee ranger | cleric hybrid looks a lot better but no divine classes makes it a lot harder Barbarian Bard looks pretty good, I presume you use the Barbarian armored agility as your hybrid talent.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:55
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:What's wrong with it? On paper it looks okay - you're basically a Ranger with a bunch of immediate interrupts from bard. If I could crack the RBA problem you don't even really need Charisma. Ranger already has immediates if you want them. The build is a weaker Ranger with no real gain.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:20
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One idea that I had while thinking about bard/Barbarian was the idea of a melee bard/Warlock abusing eldritch strike. You can take skald training to get a skald aura and then proc it + curse with eldritch strike.Cthulhu Dreams posted:What's wrong with it? On paper it looks okay - you're basically a Ranger with a bunch of immediate interrupts from bard. If I could crack the RBA problem you don't even really need Charisma. What RBA problem?
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Sep 7, 2016 00:27
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