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Typo posted:How ironic now the Communist is asserting that markets are intrinsic to human nature and not the product of the society and state which maintains them markets being intrinsic is your position and i clearly framed it as such. try reading it isn't the same thing as neocolonialism either. is your pedantry sated now the post-collapse ussr wasn't a bunch of confused citizens wandering around, dazed, unsure of what to do with all this newfound Freedom, either. but i can't force you to actually read something on the subject
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Sep 1, 2016 18:43
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Typo posted:No, you were not-so-vaguely insinuating racism Explicitly insinuating racism, actually. There's no other reading.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:43
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Jack of Hearts posted:Explicitly insinuating racism, actually. There's no other reading. gotta shift shift shift that rhetorical focus btw horseshoe theory is a mythhhhhhhh
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Sep 1, 2016 18:45
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Jack of Hearts posted:Explicitly insinuating racism, actually. There's no other reading. Every other Soviet Republic hadn't experienced market conditions since the NEP either, so how else are we supposed to read the idea that Russians uniquely can't handle freedom? I honestly gotta hand it to Typo, it takes a real dedication to get absolutely everything wrong.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:49
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Homework Explainer posted:markets being intrinsic is your position and i clearly framed it as such. try reading quote:b) markets are some mystical arcane force that go away if you stop thinking about them like tinkerbell quote:it isn't the same thing as neocolonialism either. is your pedantry sated now quote:the post-collapse ussr wasn't a bunch of confused citizens wandering around, dazed, unsure of what to do with all this newfound Freedom, either. but i can't force you to actually read something on the subject But Poland underwent shock therapy as well and ended up order of magnitudes better than Russia 20 years down the road and is well on the way to becoming a 1st world country today, constantly ranting about the IMF and how the Communist world would have ended up better if they just stayed in the 1980s forever is a bad argument.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:50
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Constant Hamprince posted:gotta shift shift shift that rhetorical focus btw horseshoe theory is a mythhhhhhhh Haha horseshoe theory oh my god 😂
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Sep 1, 2016 18:50
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Every other Soviet Republic hadn't experienced market conditions since the NEP either, so how else are we supposed to read the idea that Russians uniquely can't handle freedom? My entire point is that the entire FSU (former soviet union) did badly post-1989 relative to other east bloc countries and I explicitly stated this repeatedly maybe central asia might have being an exception to this but I don't know enough about Kazakhstan or w/e to say for sure
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Sep 1, 2016 18:51
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Typo posted:Read those two statements back to back and think about it a little bit the second statement doesn't imply the first and i'm not sure how you could think so
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Sep 1, 2016 18:53
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The Kingfish posted:Haha horseshoe theory oh my god 😂 Communist Trump supporter here to debunk horseshoe theory, let's hear it dog
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Sep 1, 2016 18:53
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Typo posted:My entire point is that the entire FSU (former soviet union) did badly post-1989 relative to other east bloc countries and I explicitly stated this repeatedly This isn't true either, though. Literally nothing you've said has been correct in any way. You're not even curious enough to do the minimal effort.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:54
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Homework Explainer posted:the second statement doesn't imply the first and i'm not sure how you could think so quote:b) markets are some mystical arcane force that go away if you stop thinking about them like tinkerbell
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Sep 1, 2016 18:55
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Constant Hamprince posted:Communist Trump supporter here to debunk horseshoe theory, let's hear it dog smdh
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Sep 1, 2016 18:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:This isn't true either, though. Literally nothing you've said has been correct in any way. You're not even curious enough to do the minimal effort. oh yeah, I guess the Baltics are also an exception but they had market societies way past the NEP and they are what <1% of the land area of the ussr
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Sep 1, 2016 18:57
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:This isn't true either, though. Literally nothing you've said has been correct in any way. You're not even curious enough to do the minimal effort. Here let me help you: you want to counter-argue by pointing to the Baltic SSRs.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:58
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Judging communism by its proponents itt, it's pretty safe to say communism is uncool and bad.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:59
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"I like to imagine that political ideologies exist on a horizontal plane from left to right. Also, this plane loops back around on itself so two ideologies that are very different from another are exactly the same."
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Sep 1, 2016 18:59
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https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312
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Sep 1, 2016 19:00
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Typo posted:oh yeah, I guess the Baltics are also an exception but they had market societies way past the NEP and they are what <1% of the land area of the ussr i think your argument is unraveling
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Sep 1, 2016 19:00
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Typo posted:If markets are the product of a certain type of state and society which maintain them (as oppose to human nature), than yes, general consciousness of how they work does go away if the state spends 70 years banning markets please define "market" for us. thanks in advance
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Sep 1, 2016 19:01
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Karl Barks posted:i think your argument is unraveling a lot less than communism 
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Sep 1, 2016 19:02
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Notice how Typo can't even consider that Russians regularly participated in black markets. Or that a people indoctrinated in Marxist theory, an ideology rooted in its criticism of capitalism & markets, wouldn't understand how markets are supposed to work.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:02
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The Kingfish posted:"I like to imagine that political ideologies exist on a horizontal plane from left to right. Also, this plane loops back around on itself so two ideologies that are very different from another are exactly the same." Do you know what a plane is?
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Sep 1, 2016 19:02
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Homework Explainer posted:please define "market" for us. thanks in advance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_(economics)
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Sep 1, 2016 19:03
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Notice how Typo can't even consider that Russians regularly participated in black markets. Soviet era black markets weren't ran with money, it was ran by connections with the right people and quid-pro-quos which left people awfully unprepared to deal with a system where private ownership and monetary exchanges were meaningful and prices adjusted quote:Or that a people indoctrinated in Marxist theory, an ideology rooted in its criticism of capitalism & markets, wouldn't understand how markets are supposed to work.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:05
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Jack of Hearts posted:Do you know what a plane is? I guess you're right, horseshoe theory is kinda retarded.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:05
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yeah that's what i thought. so a market is any exchange of goods or services according to the uselessly broad definitions you linked. your argument, then, is that in the ussr no exchanges of any kind ever took place. that's some incredible ancap poo poo right there
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Sep 1, 2016 19:07
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The Kingfish posted:I guess you're right, horseshoe theory is kinda retarded. It is, but I think the question stands.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:08
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Homework Explainer posted:yeah that's what i thought. so a market is any exchange of goods or services according to the uselessly broad definitions you linked. your argument, then, is that in the ussr no exchanges of any kind ever took place. that's some incredible ancap poo poo right there you didn't actually bother reading the article did you srsly you should read it
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Sep 1, 2016 19:10
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Typo posted:you didn't actually bother reading the article did you i know what a market is. i'm asking you, specifically, what definition of market you are using for the purposes of your argument. you instead link to a general topic page on wikipedia
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Sep 1, 2016 19:11
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The only practical application for horseshoe theory is as liberal propaganda.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:12
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Typo posted:Soviet era black markets weren't ran with money, it was ran by connections with the right people and quid-pro-quos which left people awfully unprepared to deal with a system where private ownership and monetary exchanges were meaningful and prices adjusted quote:https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1993-900-03-Treml.pdf The Soviets didn't measure incomes and expenditures in blat, but rubles. A popular way for households to earn supplementary income was to grow and sell flowers for kopeks, not favors.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Soviets didn't measure incomes and expenditures in blat, but rubles. A popular way for households to earn supplementary income was to grow and sell flowers for kopeks, not favors. You didn't pay for things in blat you used blat to get access to the opportunity to buy them because the economy was in a state of perpetual shortage
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Sep 1, 2016 19:30
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Constant Hamprince posted:You didn't pay for things in blat you used blat to get access to the opportunity to buy them because the economy was in a state of perpetual shortage Yes, and things on the black market were also bought with money. The argument here is that the Russians couldn't understand markets because they acquired goods through favor trading, which completely ignores the fact that people also paid for goods with the goddamn money. This is all, basically, an essentializing argument which blames Russians for their own failure of Liberal rule during Yeltsin's administration, which was all being advised by Americans. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 19:37
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:This is all, basically, an essentializing argument which blames Russians for their own failure of Liberal rule during Yeltsin's administration, which was all being advised by Americans. Did the Czechs and Poles get French and German advisers, or what? Serious question. lol if the Russians (and presumably Ukrainians?) were the only ones dumb enough to listen to Friedmanite Americans.
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Sep 1, 2016 20:02
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Jack of Hearts posted:Did the Czechs and Poles get French and German advisers, or what? Serious question. lol if the Russians (and presumably Ukrainians?) were the only ones dumb enough to listen to Friedmanite Americans. I don't know a ton about the transitions in Czech or Poland, but from what little I do know: The Czechs found it much easier to transition to a market economy, because being in the dead center of Europe gave them a much better comparative advantage in trade with the West than Russia. The Poles have done relatively better in large part because they retained the Zloty instead of adopting the Euro, which gives them a relative advantage in exports. They also resorted to Keynesian policies after 2008, instead of the austerity pursued by Western Europe, which is why their GDP continued to grow. Czechoslovakia and Russia both had their own versions of shock doctrine in the early 90s, while the Poles privatized through the distribution of vouchers and the establishment of mutual funds. In Czechoslovakia, particular people had a better idea of which industries would become more profitable after privatization, while the majority of people resorted to selling their vouchers to Investment Privatization Funds, which were controlled by banks, the government, or a few enterprising individuals. The Czechs intended for there to be a broad distribution of ownership, which "natural selection" would eventually whittle down to the best performing capital actors. Instead, the economy ended up being owned by the interests which controlled the IPFs. Russia's voucher privatization was even worse. Because people in Russia were poorer, they immediately sold their vouchers so that they could eat. As a result, the economy ended up being bought up by a tiny minority of former party apparatchiks, foreign speculators, and the Russian Mafia. Eventually the Mafia strong-armed the foreigners out of the most profitable industries like liquor, and the economy fell under the control of gangsterism by the Chubais-Yeltsin clique. The majority of the Russian population ended up having their savings wiped out, while former state industries were bought up by a tiny group of oligarch thugs. Failing industries were cannibalized, and millions of people lost their jobs. Those who didn't starve to death, drank themselves into an early grave, and the lack of public healthcare which was formerly provided by the SU only compounded the problem.
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Sep 1, 2016 20:57
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Why can't you guys make more posts like that instead of going "lol" and "smdh" all the time like a bunch of retarded teenage girls giggling at the cool communists table
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Sep 1, 2016 22:55
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The Saurus posted:Why can't you guys make more posts like that instead of going "lol" and "smdh" all the time like a bunch of retarded teenage girls giggling at the cool communists table when there aren't smug moron driveby posts and people are genuinely interested in what we have to say we DO make posts like that addendum: lol, and smdh as well.
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Sep 1, 2016 22:56
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The Saurus posted:Why can't you guys make more posts like that instead of going "lol" and "smdh" all the time like a bunch of retarded teenage girls giggling at the cool communists table 
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Sep 1, 2016 22:57
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The Saurus posted:Why can't you guys make more posts like that instead of going "lol" and "smdh" all the time like a bunch of retarded teenage girls giggling at the cool communists table *misrepresents someone's position every time they make a coherent argument* *gets mad when they stop making meaningful posts*  communists amirite?
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Sep 1, 2016 23:17
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horseshoe theory? id like to propose something called duality theory: the spectrum of political beliefs are actually all the same and bad, excluding mine, which is different and good just a warning, if you try to argue against me i dont actually have to engage with anything you say, since by definition you are indistinguishable from the worst political position imaginable
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Sep 1, 2016 23:52
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