|
Vlex posted:Oh jeez, my boss is arriving in Caracas this afternoon (local time) and needs to make his way to Los Teques. Stay safe venegoons! He's not gonna make it to Caracas, the access is blocked. Tell him to stay the night at the Eurobuilding, because he's not gonna make it to the city.
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 14:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 13:58 |
|
|
Bit late for that I'm afraid, he's currently somewhere over the Atlantic and is one of those marvelously professorial types who doesn't own a mobile phone. We made backup plans however, so he'll be fine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 15:15
|
|
|
I take it a lot of Venegoons are at the rally right now, which is why the thread's so quiet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 15:31
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:I take it a lot of Venegoons are at the rally right now, which is why the thread's so quiet. Half of us are out of the country though. I'm still waiting until English outlets start reporting, but the info I'm getting is that participation is massive, well on the scale of the April 11th marches, with all access to Caracas still blocked people are fighting to make their way on foot. Let's wait to see how the day plays out, it's still early in Caracas.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 15:37
|
|
|
I'm seeing reports on the preparation for the march, on the BBC site for example, but nothing about the march itself so far. It must be a huge clusterfuck if Maduro ordered security forces to block access to Caracas.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 16:19
|
|
|
At least in my house internet has been down since yesterday which I'm sure has nothing to do with what's happening today...
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 17:08
|
|
|
Chuo Torrealba is loving useless, what the gently caress do you mean "cacerolazo at 8PM"? There's nearly a million people on the street right now, many from outside of Caracas and you want them to return on the 7th and the 14th? God damned idiots.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 18:24
|
|
|
Whenever I wonder how this has all happened and how the PSUV has held power for so long I just remember myself of the Venezuelan opposition.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
What a monumental waste of resources. Edit: My cousin is at the Caracas protest and he summed it up really nicely: "it was a really, really big self-support group meeting".
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
So this is probably gonna result in a civil war right?
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 18:42
|
|
|
orange sky posted:So this is probably gonna result in a civil war right? This is gonna end with Maduro until 2019. The MUD is done for.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
With all those CIA agents with bazookas running around you'd think it would be a bit more exciting, anyways.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
For clarity's sake though, the march, in terms of participation numbers, was one of the largest in recent memory. Perhaps it was on par with the April 11th marches. If they had even remotely attempted to steer it towards downtown Caracas they would have succeeded. But the MUD squandered any leverage they may have got with it by literally turning it into a massive dance therapy session that ended at 2PM, with Chuo Torrealba, spokesman for the MUD, announcing that their next steps would be a "cacerolazo" (Collective banging of pot and pans from home) at 8pm, another march on September 7th, and another on the 14th. This was what it looked like  We'll see how the day ends, but right now the biggest problem is that most folk don't know how the gently caress they're gonna get back home. fnox fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Sep 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
fnox posted:This is gonna end with Maduro until 2019. The MUD is done for. So what happens in 2019? There's an election and the PSUV step down peacefully and then what? What could the next government even do after two more years of digging this hole even deeper?
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:So what happens in 2019? There's an election and the PSUV step down peacefully and then what? What could the next government even do after two more years of digging this hole even deeper? Replace Maduro with the army dude. fnox posted:We'll see how the day ends, but right now the biggest problem is that most folk don't know how the gently caress they're gonna get back home. Why is anyone listening to the MUD still? Why don't they just... start marching? It's so weird to see this many people united in purpose and not doing anything because it's not at the bidding of a political party.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Why is anyone listening to the MUD still? Why don't they just... start marching? They don't know they can do that. The MUD has basically destroyed people's will to fight. I'm still hopeful there will be some who will at least make an attempt to reach Miraflores, but I fear that the damage the MUD has done is irreversible. If you want to understand how such an absolute imbecile like Maduro can stay in power, just take a look at the MUD.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 19:20
|
|
|
Hi venegoons, I have been trying to interest the media fraternity in my tiny island of Saint Lucia to investigate what is going on in Venezuela right now. Purely out of self-interest, an implosion in Venezuela is going to cause a tsumani which will do incredible damage to the economies of small OAS countries like ours. A couple years ago our government was crowing about how our ALBA neighbours were going to be fantastic for us, giving us subsidized oil, cheap food imports, and ushering in a glorious era of weaning ourselves from the US foreign aid teat (onto South America's foreign aid teat) and it was going to be awesome revolutionary solidarity. Now our government has changed and nobody's talking about how we're going to be left high and dry because Venezuela can no longer take care of itself, far less meaningless satellite states such as ours. I floated the topic today on my Facebook and got this as a response from one of my friends: "Beware of believing everything that the Capitalist media spews out on the subject of Venezuela, both as to cause and effect." Does anyone have any English news sources that I can look at that aren't going to be shot down as part of the "Capitalist media"? We don't speak Spanish here, so access to primary sources is pretty difficult. Also, just anecdotally, the police here have noted an uptick in Venezuelans moving through our country illegally. I think people are trying to make their way up the archipelago in an effort to eventually get to the US (or at least the USVI).
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 20:27
|
|
|
Now the MUD is openly referring to people who are at the Francisco Fajardo or that are otherwise heading towards Libertador as infiltrators and saboteurs. I don't think they realize people actually loving live there and they can't get back to their homes because the police are blocking them. Honestly, gently caress these people, they're worse than the government.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
I told you guys this was going to be a failure Also the PSUV are never stepping down peacefully or in a democratic fashion, never, anyone who thinks so are only deluding themselves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:03
|
|
|
El Hefe posted:I told you guys this was going to be a failure well what are the people supposed to do at this point. any rebellion/revolution will probably be crushed since they would have no military backing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:15
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:well what are the people supposed to do at this point. any rebellion/revolution will probably be crushed since they would have no military backing. At least trying and failing would force the dictator to remove his mask and might shame the OAS into doing something. It's hard to throw away your personal safety and even the illusion that there might be a peaceful transition for a really good chance at losing in the short term though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:17
|
|
|
Nothing, this country is doomed, just another Cuba, North Korea, Zimbabwe, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:18
|
|
|
El Hefe posted:Also the PSUV are never stepping down peacefully or in a democratic fashion, never, anyone who thinks so are only deluding themselves. This is probably true, and it's not as if "waiting it out" is going to be a whole lot better. I'm assuming that the opposition thinks that a controlled collapse would be preferable, but that seems unlikely and it also ignores (if we consider the Venezuelan people at different social strata as columns that support the Venezuelan state structure) that even in a controlled collapse, all the columns at the bottom get to take the brunt of the impact, rather than the falling debris and rubble from up high. The MUD and the like aren't going to win support in a post-PSUV / post-collapse scenario unless they're willing to stick their necks out now, because in a final post-collapse scenario, party politics are probably not going to be a high priority for the Venezuelan people at large.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
Diosdado Cabello tweeted a picture of the government march on Avenida Bolívar: https://twitter.com/dcabellor/status/771399046984568833 Except the picture was taken in 2012.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:29
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:At least trying and failing would force the dictator to remove his mask and might shame the OAS into doing something. It's hard to throw away your personal safety and even the illusion that there might be a peaceful transition for a really good chance at losing in the short term though. maybe but i doubt it. Even if the PSUV started firing into crowds and killing hundreds, i doubt much would be done apart for maybe some sanctions. plus i am sure the PSUV can find enough useful idiots and tankies to defend them on the world stage and in the OAS. El Hefe posted:Nothing, this country is doomed, just another Cuba, North Korea, Zimbabwe, etc. this. the question is now. which kind will it be. will it be like cuba where it still fuctions "well enough" or will it become the south american hermit kingdom, or will in completely implode like zimbabwe.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:29
|
|
|
wyldhoney posted:Hi venegoons, Thanks for being interested in this and taking the initiative to do something about it! If by "capitalist media" your Facebook friends mean "media that is owned by a private company", then you're really limiting your choices to "media that is owned by the state". I would warn them that in the case of Venezuela, state-owned media (TeleSur, VTV, etc.) is just as "dangerous" if not more so than private media. I would also suggest to them that just because a media source is private or public doesn't mean that it's good or bad. Instead, you should simply keep in mind "Who owns this outlet? How might that influence their stories? What 'hidden' assumptions are shaping the story?". My experience is that when people say "Oh yeah don't believe that story, it's from the capitalist media", they're really just looking for an easy way to ignore/disagree with what the news says without actually have to do any thinking about it. Challenge people to actually read through the articles and then point out what might be wrong with them. Having said all of that, if you're looking for a website that is not owned by "capitalists" (whatever that means) and is critical of the government, check out Caracas Chronicles. They've put out a lot of really interesting work and it's updated regularly. If that doesn't work, let me know so I can point you in the direction of other resources. On your last point: I have a relative who lives in another Caribbean Island, and he's noticed a huge increase in the number of Venezuelans passing through/living illegally there as well, so I think your suspicions are correct.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:32
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:maybe but i doubt it. Even if the PSUV started firing into crowds and killing hundreds, i doubt much would be done apart for maybe some sanctions. plus i am sure the PSUV can find enough useful idiots and tankies to defend them on the world stage and in the OAS. I still think the US might start paying attention to what's going on in our own back yard after the election, but the days of unilateral cowboy imperialism in Latin America are probably dead, so any pressure would require buy-in from Venezuela's neighbors. That might not mean much in a status quo scenario, but I don't think Maduro would last very long if he went full Assad. The military may be loyal right now, but there aren't any major sectarian or ethnic divisions for Maduro to exploit in order to assure they'll stick with him to the bitter end. I just don't see why the military would remain unified around him once the order came to fire on the people, especially if the international community starts to wake up to what's going on there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 21:41
|
|
|
Caracas protest videos got about 60 seconds of airtime on MSNBC tonight. Hillary's always up for a kinetic intervention so who knows?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 02:43
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:I still think the US might start paying attention to what's going on in our own back yard after the election, but the days of unilateral cowboy imperialism in Latin America are probably dead, so any pressure would require buy-in from Venezuela's neighbors. That might not mean much in a status quo scenario, but I don't think Maduro would last very long if he went full Assad. The military may be loyal right now, but there aren't any major sectarian or ethnic divisions for Maduro to exploit in order to assure they'll stick with him to the bitter end. I just don't see why the military would remain unified around him once the order came to fire on the people, especially if the international community starts to wake up to what's going on there. Going full syria also requires having neighbors to prop you up. I dont see Russia and Iran willing (or able) to go galavanting around S America.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 02:58
|
|
|
The lack of effective organized opposition to the PSUV will only allow the situation to get worse. If MUD becomes delegitimized in the minds of the average citizen in the street, then calls for non-violence and constitutionalism by MUD will fall on deaf ears. We may see a situation like the 2011 Egyptian revolution where massive uncoordinated protests cause a collapse of the regime. This would probably be the worst result of the current crisis because the scarcity already present would increase to catastrophic levels. Even foreign aid would be ineffective if the skeleton distribution network disintegrates. The PSUV is really playing with fire right now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 04:37
|
|
|
It's completely disheartening watching the opposition play with its (forced due to lack of other leaders) followers that way. They simply won't dirty their hands due to fear and/or ambition and are basically going trough the motions to remain as figureheads. Let's do a march, let's bang our pots, let's dance in the streets! It's a loving shame. There isn't really an alternative and the next generation of Venezuelans is going to be even more used to the status quo and controlled by a subversed education system and social programs that require PSUV affiliation and whatnot. Venezuela is hosed and nothing short of civil war is going to change that in the short-mid term. wyldhoney posted:Hi venegoons, As Chuck said, dismissing media because "capitalism" is extremely idiotic and, honestly, having a discussion with someone that pulls that line is pointless: he's just going to find another excuse to dismiss your arguments. That said, there are plenty of Venezuelans in the thread that have shared their stories. Look at social media, as well: you can't get closer than actual people reporting their actual lives. Caracas Chronicles is a good independent website. I could even hook you up with a guy I know that works with them. He's not a politician or even an activist, but he's trying to fight for his country and share information. If you're interested I'll talk to him, I'm sure he could help you, at least point you to more independent sources and translating some. Once again, don't waste your time dealing with people that dismiss actual news because they don't share their worldview. They want media that's biased in their favor and will not recognize anything else. edit: It's funny. A friend was heading from Valencia to Caracas to the march, but the way was closed. He got up at 3 am and got as far as La Cabrera before the checkpoints and military barriers caused a massive lockdown on traffic. That's like, a quarter of the road from Valencia to Caracas. Massive as it was, the march was probably half of what would've been if the goverment didn't sabotage it. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Sep 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 08:21
|
|
|
There is no need for them to "dirty their hands", the people from Libertador actually got around the blockades with no violence whatsoever, turns out there's police out there who were actually expecting to be overran so they could join but the march avoided downtown Caracas completely. I can almost guarantee they would have made it to Miraflores unopposed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 11:44
|
|
|
fnox posted:There is no need for them to "dirty their hands", the people from Libertador actually got around the blockades with no violence whatsoever, turns out there's police out there who were actually expecting to be overran so they could join but the march avoided downtown Caracas completely. I can almost guarantee they would have made it to Miraflores unopposed. Well, what I mean with "dirty thier hands" is that they won't try and instigate actual action because they're afraid that would make them bigger targets to get the Leopoldo Lopez treatment. They are not going to take the lead in anything of actual significance because they don't want to get singled out as the instigators. All this manifestations are their way of fishing for conflict without outright calling for it. Obviously this is all IMO but it fits the Venezuelan modus operandi to expect others to take action and sit and wait.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 11:53
|
|
|
So is Caracas still overflowing with people or was the sabotage successful in keeping potential participants out of the city?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 11:58
|
|
|
Like I said, nothing short of a massive breakdown in social order or civil war will remove PSUV from power, and this protest was absolutely meaningless unless it's sustained.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 12:07
|
|
|
A White Guy posted:Like I said, nothing short of a massive breakdown in social order I thought that already happened.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 12:09
|
|
|
Thanks guys, I will check out the Caracas Chronicles. I've already slapped down the "Capitalist media" comment (which is code for "American media") by reminding them that "Revolutionary media" sources also have to be taken with hefty doses of sodium chloride. My past as a journalist means I can't ignore this huge story happening right on our doorsteps, but our local media is so under-trained and under-resourced they prefer to focus on the red herrings our own new and awful government is throwing out. We are also kinda hamstrung by our socialist sympathies (Cuba and now Venezuela have been assisting us for decades), and we all loved Comrade Chavez, so it's hard for us to understand just how degraded things have become over there. If anyone is escaping through the islands, I have lots of links in the Southern Caribbean (Trinidad up to Martinique, even down into Guyana, Cayenne and Suriname) so I am definitely available to help facilitate movement.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 13:04
|
|
|
I hope Maduro gives everyone in the MUD a raise, they've been doing some incredible work for him these last few years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 14:30
|
|
|
That would not very suprising would it, if opposition leaders were secretly receiving huge bribes? Its not a uncommon practice in a dictatorship.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2016 17:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 13:58 |
|
|
Maduro was just in Villa Rosa, Nueva Esparta state, and he physically fought protesters there. The news is still breaking, but from what I've heard so far this is what happened: Maduro arrived in Villa Rosa for some kind of event. He arrived there by car. Once people got wind that Maduro was there, they went out onto the streets to start a cacerolazo, which is when they bang pots and pants to make noise as a sign of protest. From the eye witness testimony that I've heard, Maduro got so frustrated that he exited the vehicle he was in and attacked at least one woman. He supposedly ripped a pot/pan out of her hand and shoved her. Here's a video of the cacerolazo: https://twitter.com/unidadvenezuela/status/771900906464014337 It's hard to tell from the video because the person flips the phone around, but right around the 10 second mark you see a group of people walking under a bright light. Maduro is there. The crowd is chanting "Si va a caer! Si va a caer! Este gobierno va a caer!" [Yes, it will! Yes, it will! This government will fall!]. In this video, you can see Maduro and his body guards running through the hostile crowd: https://twitter.com/unidadvenezuela/status/771903576385937408 This video is titled "Son of a bitcccccch". In the video, you can clearly see Maduro walking through the crowd with his fist up in the air in triumph. Maduro is clearly within earshot of the man filming, who yells, "Mamaguevo!" ["Cocksucker!"], "Maldito!" ["drat you!"] and "Becerro!" [Roughly, "You donkey!"]: https://twitter.com/JeberBarreto/status/771895394515099648 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Sep 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2016 03:58
|
|