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I know I'm a little late to the Rommelchat, but I wanted to give my two cents' worth... The German officer corps had a real problem with elitism and generally looked down on logistics as the purview of bean counters and peasants, and not worthy of the noble officer class. Rommel certainly held this attitude and, while acknowledging the importance of strong logistics (admitting, in so many words, that, “In fact, the battle is fought and decided by the Quartermasters before the shooting begins”), he also believed that the individuals responsible for ensuring logistical strength typically had a penchant for exaggerating the difficulties they faced and just needed a swift kick in the butt to get them moving. For example, at one point the 5th Light Division claimed it needed four days to refuel before proceeding. Rommel called bullshit and demanded that every one of the division's vehicles be sent to the supply dump immediately and return with enough provisions to make an advance within 24 hours. Sure enough, they made it happen, thus reinforcing Rommel's preconceptions. Indeed, regarding such events, Rommel later wrote, “I had made heavy demands throughout the action, and had thus created my own standards. One is forced again and again to re-learn the fact that standards set by precedent are based on something less than average performance, and, for that reason, one should not submit to them.” This seems to be strongly related to the previous mention of the mysterious power of Nazi Will, but I believe this condescending attitude had much deeper roots within the officer corps, going back to the Junkers themselves. As for the reasons why Rommel decided to trot off across Cyrenaica even though he knew logistics would be a problem, it started out as soon as he arrived. Forced to make do with a minimum of men and materiel, Rommel quickly decided to make a show of force to dissuade any further advance by the English. He attacked a small post at El Agheila, from which the English had been raiding his supply lines, and forced the English to retreat to Mersa El Brega, where they began to fortify their position. Realizing that allowing them to finish their preparations would only lead to greater casualties in a future attack, and that he was unlikely to receive much help since Africa was a sideshow, he decided to strike while the panzers were hot and attacked again. His bold move coupled with the use of dummy tanks to make his forces appear larger than they were (a feat of maskarovka that would make the Russians proud) convinced the English that they were facing a much stronger force than he actually possessed. So, they retreated again, he pursued again, and so on and so forth until all of a sudden he was almost in Egypt. From his perspective, to allow the English a moment's respite was to invite disaster. On a completely separate topic, I believe that another reason submarines run deep is because they can run their props at higher RPMs without cavitating.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:45
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Rommel is always that one German officer that a lot of people look at as "one of the good ones," either to hype up how intense the conflict in Africa was, or maybe they just think he's a better person than the other German, Hitler didn't like him too much, maybe he didn't eat as many babies as the more thoroughly reprehensible Goering or Goebbels. I don't know enough about his qualities as a leader to judge myself. It comes across a lot like there's some kind of tsundere thing going on with the allies, like that time that Richard the Lionhearted baked cookies for Saladin, but not because he liked him or anything.
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Sep 1, 2016 20:11
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having a good enemy is important, i told you. you have to be able to like them. if you wave your giant flag around and go "yo enemies! come have some drinks or maybe some hot chocolate if it's nippy out," it'd be nice if your enemies could accept.
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 20:13
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SlothfulCobra posted:
Discussion > Ask / Tell > Ask Us About Military History Mk III: some kind of tsundere thing
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Sep 1, 2016 20:22
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I feel like also jumping in here to mention the fact that Rommel was getting all kinds of good intel about the British Army in North Africa thanks to the Americans. No really. For whatever reason the American attache or some other diplomatic figure in Egypt was being kept informed as to the goings on at the front by the UK. He also would radio this information back to Washington using a diplomatic code that had been busted by the Germans (oops) and was thus feeding valuable intelligence to Rommel. Once this was discovered and the leak plugged, Rommel started having much greater trouble. OPSEC is loving important. Also, I'm going to Moscow for a week. I'll be visiting Kubinka, Monino, the Central Museum of Armed Forces, nuclear bunkers and etc. Oh and  ARMY 2016
Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 20:34
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Neat, you might run into Yuri Pasholok at TsMVS.
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Sep 1, 2016 20:48
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Xerxes17 posted:I feel like also jumping in here to mention the fact that Rommel was getting all kinds of good intel about the British Army in North Africa thanks to the Americans. No really. And that soldier's name was
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Sep 1, 2016 21:09
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:And that soldier's name was Jesus was Richard Sucker too subtle?
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Sep 1, 2016 21:13
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Didn't Rommel somehow make the Hitler Youth more fanatical and like a pseduo military group? or was this bullshit I heard from somebody else?
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Sep 1, 2016 21:15
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SeanBeansShako posted:Didn't Rommel somehow make the Hitler Youth more fanatical and like a pseduo military group? or was this bullshit I heard from somebody else? I've never heard this one. Rommel wouldn't have been in direct command of them and he died in October 1944. Their brutality and fanaticism was indoctrination and questionable training practices, so to speak.  Also, he was hospitalized in mid-July. Hitlerjugend arrived in Normandy in March. Other than the two being in the same area at the time, I've never heard of him training them or doing anything to make them more fanatical or "fierce" Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 21:50
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He pushed to militarize them more prewar, but wasn't in charge to make it happen.
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Sep 1, 2016 21:57
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Admiral Snackbar posted:I know I'm a little late to the Rommelchat, but I wanted to give my two cents' worth...
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Sep 1, 2016 21:57
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SlothfulCobra posted:Rommel is always that one German officer that a lot of people look at as "one of the good ones," either to hype up how intense the conflict in Africa was, or maybe they just think he's a better person than the other German, Hitler didn't like him too much, maybe he didn't eat as many babies as the more thoroughly reprehensible Goering or Goebbels. I don't know enough about his qualities as a leader to judge myself. It helps a LOT that Africa was the cleanest campaign from a public point of view. Yes, there was some lovely things with bedouins wanting to help the Nazis based on some mutual feelings re: Jews, but for the most part it was fought in a loving wasteland away from population centers over purely military objectives. It's the dashing chaps with the Desert Rats trying to outwit the Desert Fox and everyone's quite decent, did you hear about that time a dude was captured and the Germans radioed his unit so his mum would know he was OK? It's pretty much the perfect Wehraboo fight where you can lift it out of a lot of the political context. It also helps a lot that Rommel got whacked with the July plotters, so there's that extra level of being able to insist that he wasn't part of that whole icky Nazi problem.
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Sep 1, 2016 21:58
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Likewise, there's things like ignoring the commando order and the fact Rommel was really blind, to an extent it's really hard to imagine some of it wasn't wilful, to what was going on at home. It's an easy narrative to go for; poor nice guy Rommel doesn't notice the devil by his side until it's too late, then dies trying to oust him (kinda). EDIT: Also I remember a story about Rommel suggesting that, since everyone was telling all these nasty stories about how racist Germany was, it might be a good idea for Hitler to appoint a Jewish minister in probably history's worst example of "I can't be racist, I have a black friend", and didn't understand why Hitler took it so poorly. I don't actually remember the source for that so it might be wehraboo nonsense 
spectralent fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 22:01
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Cyrano4747 posted:It helps a LOT that Africa was the cleanest campaign from a public point of view. Yes, there was some lovely things with bedouins wanting to help the Nazis based on some mutual feelings re: Jews, but for the most part it was fought in a loving wasteland away from population centers over purely military objectives. It's the dashing chaps with the Desert Rats trying to outwit the Desert Fox and everyone's quite decent, did you hear about that time a dude was captured and the Germans radioed his unit so his mum would know he was OK? See also Hans-Joachim Marseille
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Sep 1, 2016 22:31
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Admiral Snackbar posted:I know I'm a little late to the Rommelchat, but I wanted to give my two cents' worth... This is a pretty basic fallacy: 'surge' operations can almost always provide you with a capability far higher than average, but not in a sustainable way and at a cost. So yeah, we did that 4 day refuelling job in one, but did no maintenance in that time also all of the drivers have been awake for 36 hours hope you don't need them to do anything now. Also the reason everyone knows Rommel is because he was a committed Nazi, not because he was 'one of the good ones'. The Nazis put a massive propaganda effort into promoting his image and that's how he got famous as the Desert Fox during the war and while he was still a big fan of Hitler. Rommel was a classic member of the Prussian officer class who was perfectly happy with Hitler when he was murdering Jews and Slavs, but suddenly realised that he was a criminal when he started issuing orders that the army didn't want to follow.
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Sep 1, 2016 22:55
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yo Hogge Wild, remember when you asked me about officers' kids? two things: number one, i just remembered that the noble family Aldringen founded through his sister's kids and the noble family that Gallas founded were both started by intermarrying with the families of other officers: the Clary-Aldringens and the Colloredo-Gallasses (I found a bunch of Clarys around near Wittstock, and Colloredo was this guy) secondly, i just found a huge racist who believes white people are better than other races because they're descended from the white nobility, who according to him all had more kids than the lower classes. and, uh, bred themselves to be nonviolent and thrifty. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/henry-harpending thought you might appreciate it edit: although, theoretically, from the point of view of evolution, isn't being a 30yw officer like the worst thing you can ever do? or is helping out the children of people who are related to you with your vast stacks of cash enough? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 23:02
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SlothfulCobra posted:Rommel is always that one German officer that a lot of people look at as "one of the good ones," either to hype up how intense the conflict in Africa was, or maybe they just think he's a better person than the other German, Hitler didn't like him too much, maybe he didn't eat as many babies as the more thoroughly reprehensible Goering or Goebbels. I don't know enough about his qualities as a leader to judge myself. Well, here's what I heard regarding Rommel: he followed the Geneva convention with all prisoners, and had no problem at all to tell the SS and their murder police to get hosed. He was allowed to get away with all of this basically because Hitler really liked him. Later on, of course, he was part of the conspiracy to murder Hitler in '44, and anybody who participated in that is going to be looked upon kindly by history.
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Sep 1, 2016 23:08
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There's a guy on AskHistorians who recently answered some Rommel/North Africa questions. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4tuviz/is_it_true_that_erwin_rommel_was_kind_to_his/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4xopgv/did_members_of_the_africa_corps_commit_any/ He's got a clear stance on the issue. I don't speak German, so I haven't looked into his sources, but it's my understanding that the bulk of "Clean Wehrmacht" scrutiny comes from German-language research.
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Sep 1, 2016 23:22
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:There's a guy on AskHistorians who recently answered some Rommel/North Africa questions.  Okay, that's pretty damning and nothing I've heard before. I mean, as I said, I always assumed Rommel was less "the good nazi" and more a guy who turned a blind eye to a lot of shady poo poo going on, but it's amazing how utterly purged from the record books the war crimes there are.
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Sep 2, 2016 00:19
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in retrospect, a defense which argues in part that there are no jewish people in north africa is suspicious on its face
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Sep 2, 2016 00:30
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StashAugustine posted:See also Hans-Joachim Marseille Wasn't Hitler's photographer Jewish?
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Sep 2, 2016 02:05
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Wasn't Hitler's photographer Jewish? No.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:09
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Wasn't Hitler's photographer Jewish? Anything you hear along the lines of "Hitler's ______ was Jewish" is inevitably either bullshit or wildly exaggerated off someone having a great great great grandfather who once dated a Jewish girl or something.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:18
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Cyrano4747 posted:Anything you hear along the lines of "Hitler's ______ was Jewish" is inevitably either bullshit or wildly exaggerated off someone having a great great great grandfather who once dated a Jewish girl or something. Maybe it was someone else. I vaguely remember a photo of Hitler/Goebbels and they look into the camera with a dumb face with a caption like "______ upon hearing the photographer was Jewish" Edit: found it  "Joseph Goebbels upon hearing photographer Alfred Eisenstadt's confirmation of being a Jew." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Eisenstaedt Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 02:21
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Cyrano4747 posted:Anything you hear along the lines of "Hitler's ______ was Jewish" is inevitably either bullshit or wildly exaggerated off someone having a great great great grandfather who once dated a Jewish girl or something. I think there is evidence he had some dealings with some Jews when he was a lovely artist, iirc from Hubris.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:21
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Disinterested posted:I think there is evidence he had some dealings with some Jews when he was a lovely artist, iirc from Hubris. Sure. The dude lived in central Europe in the early 20th century. I'm sure he sold a painting to a jew or bought groceries from a jewish shop or whatever. Those "isn't it nuts Hitler had a Jewish . . . . " stories are usually implying some kind of connection and how ~~~crazy~~~ it is that Supreme Jew Hater AH was once on friendly terms with his corner used carpet salesman or whatever.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:23
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Cyrano4747 posted:Sure. The dude lived in central Europe in the early 20th century. I'm sure he sold a painting to a jew or bought groceries from a jewish shop or whatever. Those "isn't it nuts Hitler had a Jewish . . . . " stories are usually implying some kind of connection and how ~~~crazy~~~ it is that Supreme Jew Hater AH was once on friendly terms with his corner used carpet salesman or whatever. People have a deep-seated desire for his animus to have come from somewhere specific and personal. It makes events seem less random and scary if there's some deep personal backstory.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:26
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http://www.younghitler.com/hitlers_jewish_friends.htm This seems to more or less match up with what I remember.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:30
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StashAugustine posted:See also Hans-Joachim Marseille Was Marseille not cool though?
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Sep 2, 2016 02:34
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Was Marseille not cool though? He had a black friend that he made sure wasn't mistreated and, by all accounts I've heard, generally didn't give a poo poo about proper dress code or being a nazi. He was just a really loving good pilot.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:36
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That jumped out of a plummeting plane only to get hit by the tail and lose consciousness, iirc.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:36
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Disinterested posted:http://www.younghitler.com/hitlers_jewish_friends.htm quote:Hansich’s statement is confirmed by an anonymous resident at the hostel in the spring of 1912: ‘Hitler got on extremely well with Jews, and once said they were a clever people who stick together better than the Germans.’ This is the theme of a lot of anti-semitism today, as well. You see all the time how modern right wing groups admire right wing Israeli politics in particular.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:42
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Jobbo_Fett posted:He had a black friend that he made sure wasn't mistreated and, by all accounts I've heard, generally didn't give a poo poo about proper dress code or being a nazi. He was just a really loving good pilot. Yeah that's what I thought.
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Sep 2, 2016 02:44
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The " clean luftwaffe " thing has a bit more validity than the rest of the clean wehrmacht stuff . With a few notable exceptions (Goering Milch, Rudel etc) they by and large weren't particularly enthusiastic Nazis. This was mainly a coincidence as they tended to be drawn from the wealthy and educated, and the fact that highly trained service men like pilots couldn't be easily replaced by stooges, but it still meant that the Nazi ideology wasn't particularly ingrained in the organization except it's very highest levels. They also fought a relatively clean war, certainly by German standards, and in comparison to their Western Allied counterparts , although I do think that was due as much to a lack of capability and opportunity as any deliberate policy decision.
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Sep 2, 2016 03:57
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Jobbo_Fett posted:
It was just a glare, Eisenstadt says nothing about Goebbels hearing he was a Jew. Just a glare at a photographer who aimed a camera at him in a candid moment. Or maybe Goebbels knew he was Jewish and disliked him, or was unaware of his ancestry and disliked him. But it wasn't "Hey, Mr. Goebbels, smile for the camera ohbythewayI'mJewish *snap*." http://time.com/3880669/goebbels-in-geneva-1933-behind-a-classic-alfred-eisenstaedt-photo/ quote:In 1933, I traveled to Lausanne and Geneva for the fifteenth session of the League of Nations. There, sitting in the hotel garden, was Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s minister of propaganda. He smiles, but not at me. He was looking at someone to my left. . . . Suddenly he spotted me and I snapped him. His expression changed. Here are the eyes of hate. Was I an enemy? Behind him is his private secretary, Walter Naumann, with the goatee, and Hitler’s interpreter, Dr. Paul Schmidt. . . . I have been asked how I felt photographing these men. Naturally, not so good, but when I have a camera in my hand I know no fear.
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Sep 2, 2016 03:57
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Phanatic posted:It was just a glare, Eisenstadt says nothing about Goebbels hearing he was a Jew. Just a glare at a photographer who aimed a camera at him in a candid moment. Or maybe Goebbels knew he was Jewish and disliked him, or was unaware of his ancestry and disliked him. But it wasn't "Hey, Mr. Goebbels, smile for the camera ohbythewayI'mJewish *snap*." I always took it as "Einstadt is taking a photo of Goebbels" Guy to Goebbels' right mentions the photographer is a Jew. Goebbels glares. Not "Hey, Mr. Goebbels, smile for the camera ohbythewayI'mJewish *snap*." since that would obviously not be the case.
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Sep 2, 2016 04:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Was Marseille not cool though? -played jazz music in front of Hitler to piss him off -constantly grounded because he spent his nights drinking and getting laid so yeah
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Sep 2, 2016 04:29
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StashAugustine posted:-played jazz music in front of Hitler to piss him off Yeah Marseille is the guy who basically broke every rule up to and including the one about playing to the 109's strengths and bouncing enemies instead of hauling rear end into their Lufbery and just shooting them down like ponies on a carousel. Probably had abs like a loving brick wall because he trained to clench so he didn't black the hell out chasing Spitfires and Hurricanes into immelmans.
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Sep 2, 2016 04:57
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HEY GAL posted:yo Hogge Wild, remember when you asked me about officers' kids? two things: number one, i just remembered that the noble family Aldringen founded through his sister's kids and the noble family that Gallas founded were both started by intermarrying with the families of other officers: the Clary-Aldringens and the Colloredo-Gallasses (I found a bunch of Clarys around near Wittstock, and Colloredo was this guy) if the european nobility is known for something, it's their nonviolence and good genes and 30yw officers did make the world a less competitive place for their descendants because there were a lot less people around after they had done their business
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Sep 2, 2016 07:33
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