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This whole thread is proof that having a game with real nations and people of the world is the worst loving idea. better to be like the actually GOOD ace combat games that took place in an alternate world because nobody gets into a nationalist/SJ shitposting frenzy when a fictional nation is brought up. (unless it's belka)
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Sep 2, 2016 15:29
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Thefluffy posted:This whole thread is proof that having a game with real nations and people of the world is the worst loving idea. better to be like the actually GOOD ace combat games that took place in an alternate world because nobody gets into a nationalist/SJ shitposting frenzy when a fictional nation is brought up. (unless it's belka) Ok but only as long as Glorious Sjrbia is included
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Sep 2, 2016 15:30
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I think transparency makes for solid gameplay and hiding poo poo so you have to micro spies is the definition of tedium.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:33
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Thefluffy posted:This whole thread is proof that having a game with real nations and people of the world is the worst loving idea. better to be like the actually GOOD ace combat games that took place in an alternate world because nobody gets into a nationalist/SJ shitposting frenzy when a fictional nation is brought up. (unless it's belka) Eh, I think this is part of what made Beyond Earth less popular or engaging with a lot of people. I think are people posting a lot about their opinions here are because they like and are invested in the game. They wouldn't post about the Pan American Union because nobody cares. Also, if you think the opinions in this thread are insufferable, click around on video game discussions else where because man, this is pretty tame.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:35
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Hidden information is a core part of almost every game though. If spies take too much micromanagement that's a problem itself, but not knowing exactly what the opposition is doing is not a flaw.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:35
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:People always say that about infoaddict, but it legitimately does present stuff to you that you wouldn't see otherwise. It does indeed and I'm rather looking forward to seeing how it all works. It's definitely the right direction to be going in in my opinion.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:40
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sarmhan posted:Hidden information is a core part of almost every game though. If spies take too much micromanagement that's a problem itself, but not knowing exactly what the opposition is doing is not a flaw. Hidden info is the kind of thing to be used specifically and sparingly. Twilight Struggle does not show you your opponent's hand, but there's enough info, especially after turn 1 to make reasonable guesses. It does not try to obfuscate the board state.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:42
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Eh, I think this is part of what made Beyond Earth less popular or engaging with a lot of people. I think are people posting a lot about their opinions here are because they like and are invested in the game. They wouldn't post about the Pan American Union because nobody cares. Also, if you think the opinions in this thread are insufferable, click around on video game discussions else where because man, this is pretty tame. well alpha centauri did pretty well for having fictional factions other than the UN. 
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Sep 2, 2016 15:46
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I think it's really about how much gathering the information is interesting and how much you need it. You can mostly play civ solo, not really paying too much attention to other civs, so I think it'll be ok.Thefluffy posted:well alpha centauri did pretty well for having fictional factions other than the UN. This is sort of the tail end of different conversation that just finished but basically, BE didn't really do enough with their lore to engage you in their characters, which is different than in civilization, where you already know what the romans are all about. Jump King fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 15:47
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Panzeh posted:Hidden info is the kind of thing to be used specifically and sparingly. Twilight Struggle does not show you your opponent's hand, but there's enough info, especially after turn 1 to make reasonable guesses. It does not try to obfuscate the board state. How do you feel about the fog of war, then? That hides a lot of info, and players often resort to micro-ing scouts to fogbust barbarian camps and keep tabs on enemy armies. Ultimately I want the game to portray knowledge somewhat realistically - I can't see an enemy unit because I don't have a unit of my own in the area; I can't see the treasury of my enemy because I don't have his bank statements.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:51
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Eh, I think this is part of what made Beyond Earth less popular or engaging with a lot of people. I think are people posting a lot about their opinions here are because they like and are invested in the game. They wouldn't post about the Pan American Union because nobody cares. Also, if you think the opinions in this thread are insufferable, click around on video game discussions else where because man, this is pretty tame. Honestly it seems like devs of 4x games are afraid of making games about the real world due to some existential fear of sperglords. What i'm saying is civ needs some competition.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:51
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There are Civ gameplay elements that have traditionally depended on hidden info, like wonder building or an entire stack of macemen showing up to gently caress up your poo poo, which can benefit from a well designed spy system. Neither Civ V not Civ IV had well designed spying systems. e: Panzeh posted:Honestly it seems like devs of 4x games are afraid of making games about the real world due to some existential fear of sperglords. I would love to see a city building game that plays out like civ. You start out basically playing Caesar and end up eventually in Sim City.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:52
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Panzeh posted:Honestly it seems like devs of 4x games are afraid of making games about the real world due to some existential fear of sperglords. What I would give for the Endless Legend guys to make a Civ knockoff, oh man  I started playing Endless Legend this week and I love some of the mechanics in it. I don't care for the fantasy setting that much though :/
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Sep 2, 2016 15:54
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Thefluffy posted:This whole thread is proof that having a game with real nations and people of the world is the worst loving idea. better to be like the actually GOOD ace combat games that took place in an alternate world because nobody gets into a nationalist/SJ shitposting frenzy when a fictional nation is brought up. (unless it's belka) The historical stuff is a huge part of why Civ is so successful, though. You have to expend time and money and effort on making a bunch of fictional countries people would care about, and you still wouldn't hook as many people as you would by including real countries, because more people are always going to be more interested in the real world than whatever pretend nations some game devs have written. Using real countries is a great idea because people already know what they are and care about them - it's immediately engaging to your audience to say "conquer the world as Rome" or "I led England to victory against Brazil", instead of the same statements but with fictional countries.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:03
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Rexides posted:
This would be really great. Scaling Civ down to a single city would be fun and very educational. Starting with paleolithic settlements, then ancient cities, fortified medieval cities benefiting from explorers overseas, feuding Renaissance cities, factory-filled industrial cities, then skyscraper-heavy cities with modern highways and trains, then a self-contained arcology, then launching that fucker into space like Simcity 2000 and plopping down on an alien world to have a little sci-fi fun.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:19
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Thefluffy posted:This whole thread is proof that having a game with real nations and people of the world is the worst loving idea. better to be like the actually GOOD ace combat games that took place in an alternate world because nobody gets into a nationalist/SJ shitposting frenzy when a fictional nation is brought up. (unless it's belka) Glorious Arstotzka should be included. But if you include those heathens from Kolechia, I think you'd have the same problems you're trying to prevent. They simply can't be trusted.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:29
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:How do you feel about the fog of war, then? That hides a lot of info, and players often resort to micro-ing scouts to fogbust barbarian camps and keep tabs on enemy armies. The scouting phase of civ is more busy work while you have one city and one thing building at a time so you don't just have to mash end turn. The point of the fog of war in the beginning is mostly to prevent information overload and give the scouts something to do. Honestly the unrevealed map is one of the less good forms of hidden info because you're mostly just guessing which direction is good. There's no info, really, so you might as well just roll a die. I don't think realism is really that important. I like seeing the enemy units because it allows for informed decisions(and informed decisions are the interesting ones) and seeing the enemy development for similar reasons. The fog of war to me would be like if Twilight Struggle had the influence numbers on each country hidden because "the real nations didn't know how much influence they had in a country" and it would make a much worse game.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:35
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Panzeh posted:I don't think realism is really that important. I like seeing the enemy units because it allows for informed decisions(and informed decisions are the interesting ones) and seeing the enemy development for similar reasons. Okay, you like perfect-information games, and that's fine, but you should also recognize that imperfect-information games can be interesting to plenty of people and there's no inherent reason why one is better than the other. (Not to mention, imperfect-information goes a long way to hiding all the dumbass stuff the AI gets up to)
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Sep 2, 2016 17:50
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I can't speak to Twilight Struggle but I think we just have different tastes then. I find it profoundly satisfying to have to dig out information before making decisions, or to have to analyse the risk and make decisions on incomplete information. Prison Architect is a brilliant example of the kind of game I like, it has a very interesting and intricate intelligence system (though it's not multiplayer - I'm just fighting the many NPC's out to cause trouble in my bonsai prison) Come to think of it, there aren't many perfect information games I like at all. Of all the board and video games i play, I think Carcassonne might be the only one.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:56
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I generally agree that more open information is good but consider that most boardgames don't do hidden info because fog of war sucks on tabletop. Even then you do have stuff like block wargames.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:04
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Brawnfire posted:This would be really great. Scaling Civ down to a single city would be fun and very educational. Starting with paleolithic settlements, then ancient cities, fortified medieval cities benefiting from explorers overseas, feuding Renaissance cities, factory-filled industrial cities, then skyscraper-heavy cities with modern highways and trains, then a self-contained arcology, then launching that fucker into space like Simcity 2000 and plopping down on an alien world to have a little sci-fi fun. The closest thing I can think of is Ceaser 2, and it did pretty well IMHO, with city building and province management aspects of the game But I guess it was more like Total War + SimCity
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Sep 2, 2016 18:28
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StashAugustine posted:I generally agree that more open information is good but consider that most boardgames don't do hidden info because fog of war sucks on tabletop. Even then you do have stuff like block wargames. Also, perfect information is much better suited to boardgames because they're simpler and more elegant with more abstraction. Perfect information in something with the scope and complexity of Civ just winds up with a lot of irrelevant information to sift through.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:39
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Civ should be more elegant tho
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Sep 2, 2016 18:52
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Rexides posted:I would love to see a city building game that plays out like civ. You start out basically playing Caesar and end up eventually in Sim City. Brawnfire posted:This would be really great. Scaling Civ down to a single city would be fun and very educational. Starting with paleolithic settlements, then ancient cities, fortified medieval cities benefiting from explorers overseas, feuding Renaissance cities, factory-filled industrial cities, then skyscraper-heavy cities with modern highways and trains, then a self-contained arcology, then launching that fucker into space like Simcity 2000 and plopping down on an alien world to have a little sci-fi fun. I'm a huge sucker for city builders and would play the poo poo out of this, especially if it kept the neo-Firaxis tendency of not disappearing down a yawning void of spreadsheets that many other sim/4x games fall victim to.
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Sep 2, 2016 23:45
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Gabriel Pope posted:Also, perfect information is much better suited to boardgames because they're simpler and more elegant with more abstraction. Perfect information in something with the scope and complexity of Civ just winds up with a lot of irrelevant information to sift through. I don't think civ needs perfect information, but I think a little very well-crafted obfuscation is a lot better at creating awesome decisions and surprises than a bunch of nothingness.
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Sep 3, 2016 01:54
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Some hidden information is a very good thing. Fog of War for one, spying as a counter to that is a good idea. Spying as some irritating box you have to check every turn sucks.
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Sep 3, 2016 02:20
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Hearts of Iron 4 does espionage the best out of any game I know. It's just a series of encryption and decryption techs; how much you've researched relative to your enemies dictates how much information on them you can get, and how much they can get on you. No constant micromanagement with spies, or bullshit effects like locking down your cities/ killing your leaders/ causing rebellions etc like so many other games have, but still significant rewards because that information is very important. In Civ where poo poo like demographic information doesn't matter nearly so much I guess you wouldn't be able to do a system that's totally the same, but I think something similar might be possible. e: Shogun 2 Total War is a close second because the ninja assassination videos you'd get were sweet
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Sep 3, 2016 02:35
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StashAugustine posted:Civ should be more elegant tho I feel like video games of a certain kind (sims, RPG's, wargames) can be giant ungainly behemoths that are barely comprehensible by humans, and they can be really fun like that.
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Sep 3, 2016 02:58
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I hope they do religion better. Im playing civ 5 with vox populi ans its just a losing war of spamming missionaries every few turns just to keep my religion going. It should be more dynamic than just missionary spamming. It looks like they are so far. Which is promising
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Sep 3, 2016 03:25
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Yeah I had a game with NQ mod where I decided to cheese it and play as Kamehameha on a terra map, settling in the "Americas" while everyone else hosed around in the old world. Harun created Islam on, like, turn 35, and by the time I made contact with them he had completely covered the old world with it. It was dominant in the other player's holy cities, EVERYWHERE. He sent two prophets and about a million missionaries to my continent, and I wasn't able to restore my rightful dominance of it until I declared war on him and just killed everything he sent. I kept the war going the entire game, just to keep him out. In spite of sending two prophets my way and using an unknown number on his own continent, he had about 8 holy sites around his capital. It was still only size 13 when I nuked it. He had one other city of similar size for most of the game, and a lovely coastal town he founded in like 1900. I reckon there should be a mechanic where if you promise not to convert a player's people and then do it anyway, you (or the person who coded your AI) should die in real life.
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Sep 3, 2016 04:28
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Krazyface posted:He sent two prophets and about a million missionaries to my continent, and I wasn't able to restore my rightful dominance of it until I declared war on him and just killed everything he sent. I kept the war going the entire game, just to keep him out. quote:I reckon there should be a mechanic where if you promise not to convert a player's people and then do it anyway, you (or the person who coded your AI) should die in real life.
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Sep 3, 2016 06:51
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Brawnfire posted:This would be really great. Scaling Civ down to a single city would be fun and very educational. Starting with paleolithic settlements, then ancient cities, fortified medieval cities benefiting from explorers overseas, feuding Renaissance cities, factory-filled industrial cities, then skyscraper-heavy cities with modern highways and trains, then a self-contained arcology, then launching that fucker into space like Simcity 2000 and plopping down on an alien world to have a little sci-fi fun. This is a game idea I think about sometimes, where it's kind of survival-y and you get a random start and some techs and resources, and your little city gets to rise and fall through history and go from village to metropolis and then get knocked back down to a farming town dotted with ruins. The goal would just be to survive until the present day or 2100AD or something, and then once you'd gotten the hang of the game enough to just reach the present day, the challenge then becomes like, can I reach the present day without ever being conquered, without losing the ancient wonder I built, can I become the culture capital of the world, etc.
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Sep 3, 2016 07:36
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Suddenly, First Look: Kongo! Civ ability: Nkisi- Gets Food, Production, and Gold from each Artifact, Relic, and Great Work of Sculpture. Gets double Great Artist and Great Merchant Points each turn. Leader ability: (Religious Convert?)- Mvemba a Nzinga cannot build Holy Site districts, but gets the Founder Beliefs of the religion established in the majority of his cities. Gets a free Apostle any time he finishes an Mbanza or Theater District in a city following that religion. Civ unique unit: Ngao Mbeba - Extra Defense against Ranged Attacks, Woods and Rainforests neither cost extra movement nor block their line of sight. Does not require Iron to build. Civ unique district: Mbanza - Replaces the Neighborhood and can be built earlier in the game. Provides Housing, Food and Gold. Leader agenda: Mvemba a Nzinga wants you to spread your Religion to his cities. Hogama fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Sep 4, 2016 |
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Sep 4, 2016 00:32
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Kongo is definitely interesting, though "A convert can't build holy sites" what? I understand it's a gameplay mechanic, that doesn't bother me, that's just such a weak justification. Also dude looks cool as heck.
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Sep 4, 2016 00:37
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RagnarokAngel posted:Kongo is definitely interesting, though "A convert can't build holy sites" what? It's a bit of a weak justification, but it's an interesting twist to balance the ability to poo poo out Apostles faster than a lot of other civs. Also, the solution to not being able to found a religion is taking the holy city of someone else's and depending on when their UU shows up, they can probably do it in the early to mid game with the help of their UB.
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Sep 4, 2016 00:47
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It sounds like their UU is a Swordsman replacement, given the mention of iron (and the overall appearance). I'm fine with the lack of holy sites thing; part of making civs distinct is having them be bad at things in addition to what they're good at. But it's kind of weird that Kongo is the first civ so far to have such an outright-stated disadvantage.
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Sep 4, 2016 00:49
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well, i got my obscure african civ!
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Sep 4, 2016 00:56
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Xelkelvos posted:It's a bit of a weak justification, but it's an interesting twist to balance the ability to poo poo out Apostles faster than a lot of other civs. Also, the solution to not being able to found a religion is taking the holy city of someone else's and depending on when their UU shows up, they can probably do it in the early to mid game with the help of their UB. I don't think it says they can't found a religion, just can't build holy site districts.
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Sep 4, 2016 00:58
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:But it's kind of weird that Kongo is the first civ so far to have such an outright-stated disadvantage. I wouldn't exactly call it a disadvantage; that would be if, say, their holy sites produced less faith. Not being able to build a holy site but getting the benefits of another religion anyway means that you free up tiles for other kind of improvements/districts.
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Sep 4, 2016 01:36
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Holy sites are a basic type of district. This means they can't build shrines or temples either.
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Sep 4, 2016 01:46
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