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NGDBSS posted:Are they pulling the entire license, or just that for TRPGs? Stuff like Dark Heresy and whatnot has been pretty visible but is by no means the only FFG/GW collaboration on 40K as a property. Rumor has it that GW's been pissy ever since Imperial Assault because FFG was infringing upon 'their territory' so to speak. The proliferation of X-Wing and RuneQuest probably hasn't been doing them any favors in this regard. They are pulling the entire license, including RPGs and board games.
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Sep 6, 2016 04:37
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Not particularly surprising, considering they haven't really done a lot with the IP recently.
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Sep 6, 2016 05:35
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Well, at least the rulebooks have been a faithfull recreation of the mess that is GW tabletop. Heh, buying rulebooks...
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Sep 6, 2016 06:08
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Warhammer is a hobby for modellers, not a game for people to play 
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Sep 6, 2016 07:56
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drat, so they just took down all still-available PDFs and are now just selling out their physical stock? When exactly did the first PDFs start to be out of stock? I'd assume that would be when the troubles first started, since if you're on good terms with your license-giver you could just get more keys. Or do digital download keys get made in batches and need replenishing? I was looking at the FFG store page the other week and I think there might have been some PDFs still for sale? When the final book has sold out, what will that mean for  ?
Liquid Dinosaur fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 13:47
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WONDERFUL! I never wanted to see more stuff for Relic, Forbidden Stars, or the 40k TRPGs, nope, no sir. GW ARE HEROES
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Sep 6, 2016 14:01
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Guess it's time to make a TG 40K RPG. With Black Crusades and Daemonettes!
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Sep 6, 2016 14:13
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It's like how in the new Deathwatch tabletop codex they showed a map of all the primary Watch Fortresses across the galaxy, and they showed their names and coats of arms, and right in the spot where Erioch should be, on the eastern fringe on the borders of Tau territory and near Ultramar and some hive fleet tendrils, there's some other Watch Fortress with a different name and heraldry. And in this one brief fluff paragraph they say that some Watch Station near that had a "Omega Chamber" and some Tau assaulted the station to get inside it, and they opened it and it was literally completely empty, in an obvious "gently caress you" to the macguffin-dispensing Omega Vault in Deathwatch the RPG. But hey, with a Deathwatch codex out people would clearly buy the RPG instead of the tabletop game rulebook! Surely nobody would buy that codex and army, possibly as their first ever Warhammer tabletop purchase so they could paint up a squad to be their RPG party. No sir.
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Sep 6, 2016 14:27
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Looking back at gen con this makes sense. There was zero advertising at their booth for 40k stuff, and FFG wasn't even demoing any of the other non-rpg 40k stuff they have. They were demoing the second edition of Mansions of Madness for Khorne's sake. Hopefully GW gives the license to someone else good. Maybe a bunch of us Acolyte goons should form an LLC and put together a pitch? When looking at video games of late, it sure seems they'll give the license to anyone.
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Sep 6, 2016 14:33
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One of my friends says that the license simply ran and it's unknown/unlikely to be renewed. Shame, really, maybe OW would get better with a 2e. On the other hand, FFG is gonna take this as an opportunity to make a better scifi miniature game which may or may not be X-Wing with space marines (looking at you, RuneSomething).
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Sep 6, 2016 14:38
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Rockopolis posted:Guess it's time to make a TG 40K RPG. With Black Crusades and Daemonettes! The real answer is to convert it to the Star Wars dice system.
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Sep 6, 2016 14:41
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It is a bit of a shame, the RPG lines did a lot of work in making the Warhammer settings interesting, Fantasy Flight's take on 40K did more interesting worldbuilding for it, in my opinion, than pretty much everything that came from GW in the last two decades (with the exception of stuff like the Uplifting Primer and some of Abnett's books), even if the rules were less than functional at times and layouts were often confusing. It will be sad seeing it out of their hands, but hopefully the license will find a good home in the future. ^^ [Edit] 40K with the Star Wars dice would be friggin' awesome.
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Sep 6, 2016 14:42
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Yeah, the 40k RPGs are far from perfect, but they are in my opinion the most fun you can have with the 40k setting. I was really hoping we would get an Eldar game at some point, but I guess those are dashed upon the rocks of petty retribution.
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Sep 6, 2016 14:54
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With all the nerds out there, it's strange that we didn't get a reformatted RPG book with rules placed in logical places. Maybe they'll do it once the break goes official.
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Sep 6, 2016 15:00
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That's a bummer, the FFG rpgs are my favorite role-playing system and the only 40k thing I ever have/will spend money on. ed: just realized that's not true, I've bought some Dawn of War
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Sep 6, 2016 15:02
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:It's like how in the new Deathwatch tabletop codex they showed a map of all the primary Watch Fortresses across the galaxy, and they showed their names and coats of arms, and right in the spot where Erioch should be, on the eastern fringe on the borders of Tau territory and near Ultramar and some hive fleet tendrils, there's some other Watch Fortress with a different name and heraldry. And in this one brief fluff paragraph they say that some Watch Station near that had a "Omega Chamber" and some Tau assaulted the station to get inside it, and they opened it and it was literally completely empty, in an obvious "gently caress you" to the macguffin-dispensing Omega Vault in Deathwatch the RPG.
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Sep 6, 2016 15:04
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NGDBSS posted:Wow, that's really petty. Though sadly in line with GW's slow descent into Palladium-esque obsolescence. And here's the official Watch Fortresses. Note the "Eye of Damocles":  This is what Watch Fortress Erioch's banner is.  And here's "The Omega Chamber:" 
Liquid Dinosaur fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 15:57
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I'm assuming the Storm Wardens have also somehow met an unfortunate and embarrassing end?
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Sep 6, 2016 16:18
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Werix posted:Hopefully GW gives the license to someone else good. Maybe a bunch of us Acolyte goons should form an LLC and put together a pitch? When looking at video games of late, it sure seems they'll give the license to anyone. I would love to do this for the sole purpose of modernizing the ruleset to piss off the grognards that tainted DH2 for me. What an awful experience that beta was... looking back I wonder if FFG knew this was coming and poo poo out a book to milk a last couple drops of cash from the license. Then again, goon projects.
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Sep 6, 2016 16:48
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Werix posted:Hopefully GW gives the license to someone else good. Maybe a bunch of us Acolyte goons should form an LLC and put together a pitch? When looking at video games of late, it sure seems they'll give the license to anyone. I may not be an Acolyte goon, but many of you have given me good ideas for my Deathwatch 2e Homebrew! This whole situation just gives me more impetus to create said system.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:10
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What's the legal status of Squats?Grey Hunter posted:The real answer is to convert it to the Star Wars dice system. Just throw a couple extra zeroes and some skulls on everything. Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 17:13
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:What happened with them? Palladium is notable for having made RIFTS and other projects using the same ruleset starting in the '80s. That said, since then toxic micromanagement and a stubborn refusal to move forward in any way have basically made the company into a one-man show that almost everyone else treats as a forgotten dinosaur. Plus over the years most of their freelancers has been disillusioned to the point where Kevin Siembieda couldn't get more talent even if he earnestly tried (which he hasn't done because his style is of toxic micromanagement). GW isn't quite there, and is certainly in no immediate financial trouble due to riding on their existing whales and having a strict policy of zero corporate debt. But they still have that abject refusal to face reality given how their design work is perpetually ancient, how they have effectively no good ideas about how to market (no marketing department and no way to separate sales from product quality), and how their lunch in the minis wargame scene is slowly but surely being eaten by other companies like Privateer Press. Basically, neither company gives a poo poo about growing their business, which is deadly in today's corporate world. They'll still persist, but mostly as asymptotes. NGDBSS fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 17:25
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Werix posted:Hopefully GW gives the license to someone else good. Maybe a bunch of us Acolyte goons should form an LLC and put together a pitch? When looking at video games of late, it sure seems they'll give the license to anyone. Yeah but at the same time with the way GW has treated their video game licenses and how they handed them out to the lowest bidder I don't see that much light at the end of the tunnel. I mean outside of Vermintide and what Creative Assembly and Relic are working on most of the recent Warhammer games have been forgettable or just awful. So GW or BL making RPGs again can either mean we'll get something new or interesting or we'll just end up with something really subpar. Or absolutely nothing. What seems weird though is that I took a look at the FFG site after reading the thread earlier today and while the only two 40k releases on the way are the last sets of expansions for Conquest they have a number of Deathwatch and Rogue Trader books lined up for reprint. But I guess that might just quietly disappear before long. NGDBSS posted:GW isn't quite there, and is certainly in no immediate financial trouble due to riding on their existing whales and having a strict policy of zero corporate debt. But they still have that abject refusal to face reality given how their design work is perpetually ancient, how they have effectively no good ideas about how to market (no marketing department and no way to separate sales from product quality), and how their lunch in the minis wargame scene is slowly but surely being eaten by other companies like Privateer Press. Apparently GW hired some marketing guy outside of the company not too long ago which seems to have been the basis for a lot of the current changes they're going through. The thing is of course we don't know if it'll actually help in the long run and how much GW will possibly resist due to their own company culture.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:46
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Clanpot Shake posted:I would love to do this for the sole purpose of modernizing the ruleset to piss off the grognards that tainted DH2 for me. What an awful experience that beta was... looking back I wonder if FFG knew this was coming and poo poo out a book to milk a last couple drops of cash from the license. What was the original DH2 version like? I always heard it was way different, but I can't say I know exactly how it was so different that made people flip.
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Sep 6, 2016 18:27
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Off the top of my head... -"Classes" were more rigid in some spots and more freeform in others. In particular, while your class dictated your purchasing rates for buying up skills the costs for buying up characteristics or talents were independent of your class. -A number of modifiers were pared down. In particular Unnatural Characteristics were no longer a thing, but in exchange it was easier to buy up the natural value of a characteristic. -The damage model was interesting but notably unpolished, essentially looking like a variant on that of Mutants & Masterminds. DH2E's take on this, however, used more charts and in general was more deadly. Basically, there were some cool ideas that needed a few more design iterations to be made to shine, but a bunch of the community's grogs apparently threw a hissy fit that caused FFG to throw out the new design work and instead iterate from OW.
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Sep 6, 2016 18:37
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Rockopolis posted:What's the legal status of Squats? Derivative work.
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Sep 6, 2016 18:39
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Roundtree and the current marketing guy (hired from outside instead of being internal promotion, and has actual qualifications, not just "CEO Wife") are actually doing stuff that sometimes looks suspiciously similar to good business decisions and I get tentatively excited about stuff (kill team rerelease). Kirby is still on the board, but rumour has it that the board convenes when he can't attend. Rules are still super bullshit and I hope 8th edition makes many people cry next year. I'm only willing to play Kill Team, HoR KT and maybe 500pts zone mortalis. Anything more is grav amp detachment formation psychic daemon summoning deathstar bullshit.
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Sep 6, 2016 18:54
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Rockopolis posted:What's the legal status of Squats? In Purgatory. Cooked Auto posted:What seems weird though is that I took a look at the FFG site after reading the thread earlier today and while the only two 40k releases on the way are the last sets of expansions for Conquest they have a number of Deathwatch and Rogue Trader books lined up for reprint. Those books have been slotted for a reprint for well over a year now and haven't received one. To illustrate, I think I've been waiting for Rites of Battle from my FLGS since early 2014 (I fortunately acquired it from a different FLGS near my hometown earlier this year). It's likely that they won't be reprinted, especially since FFG quietly cleaned out their inventory of non-DH2 40k RPG rulebooks back in December 2015 during a 'sale' when nearly every book they had in stock was $5.
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Sep 6, 2016 18:58
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NGDBSS posted:Off the top of my head... Pretty much all of this. It's been a long while since I looked at it so this is from memory. For all the work the game needed, they solved a lot of existing problems: - No charop. Every class had equivalent rates of progression with different skills/attributes. This also made it super easy to roll your own class. - Tables had actual numbers in them, so instead of having "Rare" and just knowing that meant -X the table just said -X - The ability bonus for each characteristic actually did something. The combat system was similar, but instead of full/half actions you had 4 action points, with actions costing 0-4 points. This was a cool idea but lead to some weirdness with how common actions lined up. You also had to bank them if you wanted to take a reaction, as those also cost AP. The damage model was kind of a mess though, relying heavily on referencing wound tables. They re-worked Fear in an interesting way (that honestly they could have just dropped into OW1.5). Things with fear now had a subtype that determined how you reacted to it. I remember there being more interesting changes here but I'm drawing a blank. One of the bad things was how they did Talents. Talents had the same XP cost for every character, and were arranged into very simple trees, so if you were putting points into talents you ended up with very similar characters due to having to buy all the same pre-reqs. Not a bad idea, just poor implementation. I still have the old PDF lying around but that's probably still in :warez: territory.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:33
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Good project for a better DH2E when?
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Sep 6, 2016 19:48
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JcDent posted:Good project for a better DH2E when? Just finished my Black Dungeon Crusade World campaign, still have some small kinks to work out but on the whole everyone agreed it worked a lot better than Actual Black Crusade. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6VIODxR76Y8akNhVVIyaXpIcDQ Not real sad to see FFG's Warhammer RPG go the way of the dodo, personally. It's a mess.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:54
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Not real sad to see FFG's Warhammer RPG go the way of the dodo, personally. It's a mess. It's a mess, but what do you expect from something that was originally produced by GW in-house? (Black Library via Black Industries originally did DH1E, which itself was based on WHFRP) I think they've done an alright job with a license that inspires lots of sperg-warring and they've gotten better at improving the underlying systems over time.
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Sep 6, 2016 20:26
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LuiCypher posted:It's a mess, but what do you expect from something that was originally produced by GW in-house? (Black Library via Black Industries originally did DH1E, which itself was based on WHFRP) I want a 40k RPG where there's a career compendium and you can play as approximately 5 different variations of garbage-collecting hobo. And 1000 mutations most of which would completely ruin your character with no upsides.
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Sep 6, 2016 20:28
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LuiCypher posted:It's a mess, but what do you expect from something that was originally produced by GW in-house? (Black Library via Black Industries originally did DH1E, which itself was based on WHFRP) I think they've done an alright job with a license that inspires lots of sperg-warring and they've gotten better at improving the underlying systems over time. I know professional writing, editing, and design standards are rare in tabletop RPGs--to say nothing of sound game mechanics--but we should still demand them.
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Sep 6, 2016 20:38
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I know professional writing, editing, and design standards are rare in tabletop RPGs--to say nothing of sound game mechanics--but we should still demand them. Agreed. RPGs seem to get the short shrift these days, and FFG is notoriously bad at rulebooking even on their main line games. But with regards to design standards, just look at D&D. It's pretty clear that the main market for the hobby doesn't really seem to care for design standards other than "DO WHAT I WANT NERDS RULE". Liquid Dinosaur posted:I want a 40k RPG where there's a career compendium and you can play as approximately 5 different variations of garbage-collecting hobo. And 1000 mutations most of which would completely ruin your character with no upsides. Oh, WHFRP, how we miss being King Shitpicker. To be fair, compared to just about every other line, DH1E Acolytes are only slightly higher on the power totem pole than a garbage-collecting hobo. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 21:25
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I'm a little disappointed that the our vaporware goals have been limited to "the same as before, but a little different". Boring. It's vaporware, you don't got to play it sane! Go large, dare to dream up Knightfall, the Imperial Knight RPG where you invade worlds at the behest of the Adeptus Mechanicus and your wealth is measured in the tons of conflict minerals you supply to the AM.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:44
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NGDBSS posted:Off the top of my head... Categorizing the people who opposed the new system as "grognards" is misleading- the opposition was mostly comprised of people who wanted a mechanically robust version of the 40k RPG with the coolest setting but the worst rules. The initial draft manifestly did not offer that, and the designers seemed unable to iterate the rules to fix the issues players identified or make a case that the new system offered any advantages other than novelty. It wasn't clearer or simpler, it wasn't faster to resolve, it didn't handle scaling better (quite a lot worse actually), it didn't take a different approach to running a game or better enable genre emulation, etc. Mechanical novelty is all well and good, but this wasn't a credible alternative to a mediocre status quo, it was a hot mess that (based on previous track record) looked like it would take several game iterations to reach the same state of acceptability the old game had already achieved by OW. Returning to an iterated variant of a system that had had most of the bugs worked out through 6 years of refinement was unexciting but absolutely the correct decision if FFG wanted to be able to release an acceptable new edition in a timely manner. LGD fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 23:09
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I don't disagree with any of that (except the part about them not being grogs because a lot were) but it's a really sad state of affairs that FFG saw the safer path being shoveling out something with minimal effort rather than innovate the game at all. They threw the baby out with the bathwater, and the game they finally released offered nothing to anybody. People already invested in 40k RPG already own DH1 and OW, and there was nothing in DH2 to attract new gamers. It was a niche product for a niche within a niche. And when I say 'minimal effort' I'm not joking. There are copy/pasted references to things from OW that they took out in DH2. Very sloppy, even for FFG.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:42
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Clanpot Shake posted:I don't disagree with any of that (except the part about them not being grogs because a lot were) but it's a really sad state of affairs that FFG saw the safer path being shoveling out something with minimal effort rather than innovate the game at all. They threw the baby out with the bathwater, and the game they finally released offered nothing to anybody. People already invested in 40k RPG already own DH1 and OW, and there was nothing in DH2 to attract new gamers. It was a niche product for a niche within a niche. Yeah DH2e definitely felt uninspired after they abandoned the initial draft rules (the supplements were better but too few in number- something else I think contributed to a lack of enthusiasm), and I think a lot of people would have been excited if they had innovated a worthwhile new system. But all indications were that they had presented the draft rules with the intention that they would only need to make minor tweaks and that they were looking to get the product to market within a fairly short timeframe. They were not going to devote a year+ to the heavy design work the game actually needed. It's maybe sad that financial realities prevented us from getting a new game, but it isn't like we lost some brilliant gem of RPG design- there were some neat ideas but the ruleset was extremely underbaked and there did not seem to be anyone behind the scenes with the inspiration/vision to drive it forward. The metaphorical baby seems largely illusory and I don't think DH2 would have done any better if they'd pressed ahead with the original draft.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:03
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Grey Hunter posted:The real answer is to convert it to the Star Wars dice system. Someone get on this tia. Dre2Dee2 posted:What was the original DH2 version like? I always heard it was way different, but I can't say I know exactly how it was so different that made people flip. I'm pretty sure its still all technically under NDA but in general it was a huge mess. They had a completely redone action economy where each character had like 4 actions to spend on a turn and weapons all had a rate of fire which determined how many shots were needed to fire or in some cases how many shots triggered off. So things like a sniper rifle had a rate of fire of 1/5 meaning you needed to spend 5 actions to shoot it (across multiple rounds) and a lasgun would be 3 meaning you got 3 shots per action spent or something like that (might be flipped the other way). Action was very much kick down the door and kill stuff kind of combat with huge encounter building rules (which given the character building was super open ended it didnt really help lol). I'd have to hunt through and find my notes and old docs to give anything detailed and again I think its NDA'd still. A class package determined what every skill and background/origin (or something like that) for what every stat costed. Talents where part of a talent tree that you could buy into at any time not too dissimilar to the Edge of the Empire talent tree system except that it gave increasingly better talents as you went down the tree but your starting class + background stuff would give you a bunch of starting talents. It usually result in the players buying contradictory classes to what they thought they wanted. So a Adept would get quick draw which was a shooting/sniper talent tree talent, which meant you could start deeper down the tree than the Assassin would and both could just pick a background that gave them cheaper Ballistic Skill purchases anyway. It was a cool idea but would generally need a huge work over to get going and basically every single system needed a re-design and re-think which just wasnt going to happen quickly. kingcom fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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