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My thinking was that the ranger ones like Duck and Draw (which is really good!) require you to be attacked, whereas the trigger on Prescient warning is easier to manage. But having spent some more time dicking around with it I am leaning towards agree with you. I guess my real question is if you where looking at some sort of hybrid striker/leader that cannot use divine classes, what would you play? Things I want: A) something resembling striker damage so I don't make combat drag on to much B) 'fun' to play with interesting and real decisions to be made every turn of combat C) A fairly contained gimmick so I don't have to rely on other party members and other people don't need to consider flakey me, but at the same time having a decent MBA/RBA so I can be used for whatever enabling is rocking around. D) No divine classes - GM was thinking eberron and then flipped to dark sun. E) I enjoy complex builds. I was going to go with a Melee Ranger / Cleric hybrid with tactical warpriest and be a striker/defender/leader thing (you've got twin strike, and multiattacking ranger powers to bring the damage, you have a couple of good minor action heals and good defenses so you are durable, and it's melee while tactical warpriest gives you a mark so you need to think carefully about positioning) but the non divine classes blew that up. Yukari posted:One idea that I had while thinking about bard/Barbarian was the idea of a melee bard/Warlock abusing eldritch strike. You can take skald training to get a skald aura and then proc it + curse with eldritch strike. If you can find a way to reliable give yourself non standard action RBAs I was thinking you use the Skald aura (because your standard action is going to be twin strike forever) and can take powers like lesser dimensional step for more enabling. The bard warlock build is pretty cool though I guess it suffers from the 'you could just play a half elf' I think a Valorous war chanter half elf with Skald training is going to be awesome from level 11 onwards. Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 7, 2016 01:00
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Generic Octopus posted:Ranger already has immediates if you want them. The build is a weaker Ranger with no real gain.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:04
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:The bard warlock build is pretty cool though I guess it suffers from the 'you could just play a half elf' I think a Valorous war chanter half elf with Skald training is going to be awesome from level 11 onwards. Actually, I'm trying this exact idea now. Just grabbing melee training to tide me over in the meanwhile. The only reason I was thinking bard/warlock hybrid was that it's available from level 1, and you can still get Virtue of Valor with your HT, which I think is probably what you're going to do. Though, admittedly, your AC will suck which is probably the issue with that sort of build. Also, iirc, the skald aura ability only procs when you do basic attacks, which is why Eldritch Strike was what I'd imagine you'd have to use.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:05
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:
I was about to say Barbarian|Runepriest but then you said no divine. Uh...Warlock|Artificer gets you Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike and Con/Int synergy? But seriously, striker|leader isn't an especially supported combo, especially with your no-divine condition. Defender|Leader's a great deal more open. EDIT: FWIW being able to do everything via a staff implement or by taking Crossbow Caster to cast via crossbow could be cool, considering I think Crossbow Caster, due to you being a hybrid, lets you use it as an implement for your Warlock powers, but it might not. Staff definitely will, and you'll have the CON and AC to be able to wield the thing in melee. Unknown Quantity fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 7, 2016 01:35
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Unknown Quantity posted:I was about to say Barbarian/Runepriest but then you said no divine. Uh...Warlock/Artificer gets you Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike and Con/Int synergy? But seriously, striker/leader isn't an especially supported combo, especially with your no-divine condition. Defender/Leader's a great deal more open. I don't need it to be Striker / Leader. I can be Striker / literally anything as long as it's fairly self sufficient. I was looking at Striker/Defender Darksun makes it a pain in the butt because it takes Paladin off the table which is another great class for wedging in there - Sorcerer/Paladin has good damage, high defenses and a bunch of mass marking powers to suck them in so you can blow them up with a big AoE powers.' Warlock/Artificer looks good. Ranger / Sentinel (Druid dailies ontop of ranger at will + encounter + 2 pets) looks like being silly but fun as well. Ranger / Shaman is another option but doesn't seem to gel well when I actually make a build. Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 7, 2016 01:48
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I don't need it to be Striker / Leader. I can be Striker / literally anything as long as it's fairly self sufficient. I was looking at Striker/Defender Darksun makes it a pain in the butt because it takes Paladin off the table which is another great class for wedging in there - Sorcerer/Paladin has good damage, high defenses and a bunch of mass marking powers to suck them in so you can blow them up with a big AoE powers.' If you're fine with Striker/anything, Warden/Barbarian is good, and I can definitely attest to Warlock/Swordmage. Swordlock is really good at laying down tons of -2s and screwing with people in general, especially if Paragon is an eventuality and you get access to Sigil Carver.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:54
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Unknown Quantity posted:If you're fine with Striker/anything, Warden/Barbarian is good, and I can definitely attest to Warlock/Swordmage. Swordlock is really good at laying down tons of -2s and screwing with people in general, especially if Paragon is an eventuality and you get access to Sigil Carver. Yeah, Warlock | Swordmage looks like a really solid option, I'm assuming you go shielding and spam out Hellish Rebuke on the target you've marked so he has a totally impossible catch 22.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:01
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Yeah, Warlock | Swordmage looks like a really solid option, I'm assuming you go shielding and spam out Hellish Rebuke on the target you've marked so he has a totally impossible catch 22. That, and the Sigil Carver lvl 16 feature + E. Strike.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:05
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Generic Octopus posted:That, and the Sigil Carver lvl 16 feature + E. Strike. Yeah, OK that's pretty good. Gotta play human or retrain at level 16 but yikes - e: That even works against AoEs. Bunch of fun options kicking around, the warlock PP that deals auto damage to your marked targets would be fun too.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:09
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You can also in theory use Vestige pact at Paragon if you want even more ways to put your curse on things. Warlock's Curse + Eyes of the Vestige to double-curse on turns after you've marked someone to have 1 mark and 3-4 curses by turn 2, for instance.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:22
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Unknown Quantity posted:You can also in theory use Vestige pact at Paragon if you want even more ways to put your curse on things. Warlock's Curse + Eyes of the Vestige to double-curse on turns after you've marked someone to have 1 mark and 3-4 curses by turn 2, for instance. That's a brutual choice - do you twofold pact into Infernal to let you take both Hellish Rebuke and Eldritch Strike without being human, or Eyes of the Vestige to spread your curse around. Looks good! I might get some better answers via play as I level up, but can pencil something in.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:46
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At that point, might as well look at the Darth Vader build, which does exactly that.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:20
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The thing about hybrids is that you need a mechanical reason for them, not just a fluff one, and bard|ranger lacks that. There's no actual synergy there. You're either a ranger with a chunk carved out and filled with bard stuff they can't actually do all that well, or a bard with a chunk carved out and filled with ranger stuff they can't actually do all that well. With hybrids, there has to be a question you are answering that isn't just "what if you mashed these two together?" Swordlock can honestly go several different ways, mostly due to how versatile the warlock is. A "darth vader" build is one that aims for personal survival and punishment, thus the heavy constitution focus. Another way to do it would be focusing more on group benefits (aka Sigil Carver) and control, abandoning the immediate punishment and vestige pact's mass marking for finer and wider control with a bigger focus on keeping your friends close, and in turn because you're so much more focused on the party line up, you drop the Infernal Pact and Hellish Spam entirely for Booming Blade to disrupt enemy groups. Or you eschew the defender part entirely, go assault swordmage with your warlock, and build up for damage. Or you do that, but do it by also dropping warlock and stapling barbarian onto the swordmage, because that is a thing that absolutely works. Honestly though, swordmage|warlock is an almost perfect match that can be done a HUGE variety of ways. The main things to focus on are: you're badly action starved, so you want to combine poo poo whenever possible. You need to use two attributes, so shore up your accuracy. You're control and defense of others and your punishment is huge, so make sure you have high defenses yourself. Also, always, always, always take Dimensional Vortex.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:42
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ProfessorCirno posted:Honestly though, swordmage|warlock is an almost perfect match that can be done a HUGE variety of ways. The main things to focus on are: you're badly action starved, so you want to combine poo poo whenever possible. You need to use two attributes, so shore up your accuracy. You're control and defense of others and your punishment is huge, so make sure you have high defenses yourself. There are, as I recall, three near-perfect matches for hybrids. Swordmage|Warlock, (Tiefling) Paladin|Warlock, and Cleric|Invoker. All three can perfectly complement one another's abilities, be incredibly modular in the case of the first, make something that combined is actually stronger than the sum of its parts in the case of the second, or fit so perfectly that you'd think they were initially one super-class split into two different roles in the third.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:50
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Oh my god I forgot about Cleric|Invoker. I feel like you need an actual reason not to be one if you want to be a Cleric or an Invoker, it's so good.
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Sep 7, 2016 04:03
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Yeah, there is definately a lot of stuff you can do with the Swordlock. I'd just looked at the Darth Vader build, but as a 5th or 6th man I'm not sure it's what the team needs. If I'm striking and off-defending the extreme emphasis on survivability and punishment is not required - but stuff like Caution of Dispater looks really good. ProfessorCirno posted:Or you eschew the defender part entirely, go assault swordmage with your warlock, and build up for damage. Or you do that, but do it by also dropping warlock and stapling barbarian onto the swordmage, because that is a thing that absolutely works. I've looked at the Barbarian | Swordmage thing, but I'm not totally sure how it's supposed to work. Are you basically just building a barbarian, loading up with immediate interrupts and if you proc Aegis of assault that is a sweet bonus? That's probably a good start for a 5th-6th man build. (Also, you're fighting with a longsword and swordmage warding until paragon, then switching out for Armored agility and a big fuckoff two handed right?) Edit: Howling strike requires a two hander so armored agility from day 1. Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Sep 7, 2016 |
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Sep 7, 2016 04:19
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:If you can find a way to reliable give yourself non standard action RBAs I was thinking you use the Skald aura (because your standard action is going to be twin strike forever) and can take powers like lesser dimensional step for more enabling. The bard warlock build is pretty cool though I guess it suffers from the 'you could just play a half elf' I think a Valorous war chanter half elf with Skald training is going to be awesome from level 11 onwards. Yeah, half-elf valor war chanter fake skald is fun, and even funnier if you poach the good enabling powers from either the warlord or the cleric.
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Sep 7, 2016 05:29
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Unknown Quantity posted:There are, as I recall, three near-perfect matches for hybrids. Swordmage|Warlock, (Tiefling) Paladin|Warlock, and Cleric|Invoker. All three can perfectly complement one another's abilities, be incredibly modular in the case of the first, make something that combined is actually stronger than the sum of its parts in the case of the second, or fit so perfectly that you'd think they were initially one super-class split into two different roles in the third. You can throw Bard/Warlord onto that pile too.
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Sep 7, 2016 06:01
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djw175 posted:You can throw Bard/Warlord onto that pile too. Really?? Nice. Bard|Warlord was basically like, the 2nd 4e character I ever played (IIRC) and one of only 2 hybrids I ever did.
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Sep 7, 2016 06:51
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Warlord|X is fairly good, thanks to the ability to lazylord the warlord half. X isn't everything, but there's a fair number.
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Sep 7, 2016 06:55
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Clerics also hybrid fabulously thanks to their scale proficiency and +2 shield bonus granted by Battle Cleric's Lore.
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Sep 7, 2016 07:30
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LightWarden posted:Yeah, half-elf valor war chanter fake skald is fun, and even funnier if you poach the good enabling powers from either the warlord or the cleric. Are you talking about hybriding cleric/bard or just poaching the powers with multiclass feats? I thought to proc the skald aura ability, you had to use basic attacks, so only eldritch strike or virtuous strike would count.
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Sep 7, 2016 10:24
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I've looked at the Barbarian | Swordmage thing, but I'm not totally sure how it's supposed to work. Are you basically just building a barbarian, loading up with immediate interrupts and if you proc Aegis of assault that is a sweet bonus? That's probably a good start for a 5th-6th man build. You are always using the biggest two handed weapon you can alongside armored agility, and yeah, you more or less cherry pick barbarian or swordmage powers that let you hit more then once - swordmage actually has a good number of them. Roll Int + Strength and Aegis of Assault, Genasi would fit it even if it didn't have literally perfect stats. djw175 posted:You can throw Bard/Warlord onto that pile too. You absolutely cannot. A solo Bard or Warlord will probably be better then a hybrid of the two. In all honesty, with the sort of shenanigans bards can do with multiclassing, there's little reason to hybrid them in the first place. Remember: hybrids must have a mechanical draw to them. The whole must be greater then the sum of it's parts. Just taking two strong classes and mushing them together will not work. To be frank, the bard already has plenty of strong enabling powers (and god help you if players start taking Agile Opportunist) - it doesn't NEED the warlord half. And vice versa. Even when bard|warlord doesn't work, there's no way it's anywhere near stuff like cleric|invoker. TheDemon posted:Warlord|X is fairly good, thanks to the ability to lazylord the warlord half. X isn't everything, but there's a fair number. It sorta boils down to "how awesome is your MBA, how well does this work together, and what are you replacing?" It goes back to what I just said - the whole must be greater then the sum of it's parts. Lazylord powers are great, yes, but they're not better then everything else in the game. Most of them aren't as good as the non-lazylord powers.
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Sep 7, 2016 13:15
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Unknown Quantity posted:There are, as I recall, three near-perfect matches for hybrids. Swordmage|Warlock, (Tiefling) Paladin|Warlock, and Cleric|Invoker. All three can perfectly complement one another's abilities, be incredibly modular in the case of the first, make something that combined is actually stronger than the sum of its parts in the case of the second, or fit so perfectly that you'd think they were initially one super-class split into two different roles in the third. Can someone explain the Paladin|Warlock to me? I'm not seeing the benefits.
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Sep 7, 2016 14:41
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Network42 posted:Can someone explain the Paladin|Warlock to me? I'm not seeing the benefits. Be a Tiefling. There's an article in Dragon 381 full of feats specifically for Tiefling Paladin|Warlocks and Paladin/Warlocks. Crimson Legionnaire gives +2 damage to paladin powers against things under your Warlock's Curse, Crimson Fire turns Warlock's Curse bonus damage into d10s if they're also under your Divine Challenge, Imperious Majesty lets you use CHA instead of DEX for initiative and since both classes key off CHA you're in for a drat good time. Not to mention all of the fire synergy for being a Tiefling and the ability to create "huge damage if you attack me, huge damage if you don't attack me" catch-22's. Oh, and you also get to save a feat on Wrath of the Crimson Legion since you get Eldritch Strike for free and can use it as an MBA.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:16
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Tiefling's are just made of awesome in this edition. Secrets of Belial, Wrath of the Crimson Legion, Imperious Majesty, being Cha-Con/Int it is all just great stuff.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:35
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Yukari posted:Are you talking about hybriding cleric/bard or just poaching the powers with multiclass feats? I thought to proc the skald aura ability, you had to use basic attacks, so only eldritch strike or virtuous strike would count. Poach with multiclass/Eternal Seeker. If it involves an attack stat like Hail of Steel then you need to use a multiclass so you can fix that with Combat Virtuoso, but you can use Valorous Charge with a fake skald with absolutely no problem (assuming you get that high anyways).
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Sep 7, 2016 16:20
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LightWarden posted:Poach with multiclass/Eternal Seeker. If it involves an attack stat like Hail of Steel then you need to use a multiclass so you can fix that with Combat Virtuoso, but you can use Valorous Charge with a fake skald with absolutely no problem (assuming you get that high anyways). Where's Valorous charge located in? Google's coming up blanks, and I'm kinda interested since I'm making the Valor fake skald half-elf poaching eldritch strike right now for a campaign.
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Sep 7, 2016 16:31
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Valorous Charge is a level 27 Cleric power from the Neverwinter Campaign Guide, Torm domain warpriest. You and every ally within a close burst 5 can make a basic attack or charge, and gets a power bonus to defenses equal to your Con modifier until the end of your next turn. It's probably the strongest enabling encounter power in the game, but it's a level 27 so most people will never see it. It's also a fantastic reason to put Reserve Maneuver on your warpriest.
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Sep 7, 2016 16:45
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LightWarden posted:Valorous Charge is a level 27 Cleric power from the Neverwinter Campaign Guide, Torm domain warpriest. You and every ally within a close burst 5 can make a basic attack or charge, and gets a power bonus to defenses equal to your Con modifier until the end of your next turn. It's probably the strongest enabling encounter power in the game, but it's a level 27 so most people will never see it. It's also a fantastic reason to put Reserve Maneuver on your warpriest. Oh wow. That's pretty insane. What other powers would you consider poaching? I'm taking Switcheroo for now because I know I have an ally that's going to get agile opportunist.
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Sep 7, 2016 16:51
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Death from Two Sides is a level 13 Warlord power that lets you and one ally make an MBA against a target, and if both hit then the ally's attack is a crit, which pairs quite well with a skald. If you're taking the Combat Virtuoso feat (bard feat that lets you use Charisma instead of an MC power's normal attack stat for the attack roll, but not the damage) then Hail of Steel is still fantastic at level 17.
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Sep 7, 2016 17:08
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:What's wrong with it? On paper it looks okay - you're basically a Ranger with a bunch of immediate interrupts from bard. If I could crack the RBA problem you don't even really need Charisma. Bard Interrupts tend to be CHA based and rangers don't want to touch CHA with a barge-pole. But if you've found enough IAs that aren't, go nuts. Yukari posted:Oh wow. That's pretty insane. What other powers would you consider poaching? I'm taking Switcheroo for now because I know I have an ally that's going to get agile opportunist. Big poachables tend to be Leader powers, so... Valourous Charge Climactic Chord Sever the Source There are a bunch more I can't bring to mind offhand, but basically go through the Leader handbooks that got saved over on ENWorld and pick powers that match your stats that are gold-rated.
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Sep 7, 2016 17:17
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The Guide to the Guides got saved, and if you're looking for good powers to look into there's the Poachable Powers handbook.
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Sep 7, 2016 17:22
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Awesome, that's what I needed. Thanks guys.
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Sep 7, 2016 18:13
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Unknown Quantity posted:There are, as I recall, three near-perfect matches for hybrids. Swordmage|Warlock, (Tiefling) Paladin|Warlock, and Cleric|Invoker. All three can perfectly complement one another's abilities, be incredibly modular in the case of the first, make something that combined is actually stronger than the sum of its parts in the case of the second, or fit so perfectly that you'd think they were initially one super-class split into two different roles in the third. What do you think of Hybrid Cleric | Melee Ranger? There is a lot of cleric stuff that you can use that keys off strength, it gives you an awesome AC and doesn't cost much. I feel like it's perfect if you're stopping pre epic, and the tradeoffs may be worth it even if you are going to 30.
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Sep 8, 2016 04:36
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Cleric|StrengthClass is generally awesome. Cleric|Fighter, Cleric|Ranger, Cleric|Barbarian, whatever. I feel like melee ranger and Barbarian are actually stronger as Cleric Hybrids. Swordmage|Artificer is a better Artificer than a full-class Artificer and it's a better Swordmage than a full-class Swordmage. Warlord|X tends to be awesome due to powerful lazylord powers. This is even better if your X has a good MBA.
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Sep 8, 2016 05:58
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:What do you think of Hybrid Cleric | Melee Ranger? There is a lot of cleric stuff that you can use that keys off strength, it gives you an awesome AC and doesn't cost much. I feel like it's perfect if you're stopping pre epic, and the tradeoffs may be worth it even if you are going to 30. Honestly? Probably belongs on that list, it's so good. The Battle Whatever thing that clerics got that grants scale and a shield defense when you don't even have a shield out tilted a whooooole lot of scales, in ways I'm not actually sure were all positive. I absolutely despise people taking the cleric multiclass and trying to claim they can totally take the Battle Whatever instead. Khizan posted:Cleric|StrengthClass is generally awesome. Cleric|Fighter, Cleric|Ranger, Cleric|Barbarian, whatever. I feel like melee ranger and Barbarian are actually stronger as Cleric Hybrids. The only real problem with Cleric|Barbarian is that you aren't Fighter|Barbarian, which I feel fits better. Or Monk|Barbarian, which not only works, it works real well in ways it shouldn't. Swordmage|Artificer I kinda feel the same way. Artificer itself is begging to be a hybrid (Hi, Magic Weapon!), but I feel it fits better with other leaders then with Swordmage. Of course, if you really want to be mean, you do that Swordmage|Barbarian I mentioned earlier and multiclass Artificer for - and pretty much only for - their absolutely disgusting triple hitter in Epic. Fits the flavor to boot! But yeah, the aforementioned Battle Whatever turned clerics into a near impossible to ignore hybrid option for almost anyone with high wisdom and/or strength and a need for better armor options.
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Sep 8, 2016 14:16
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Yup, confirming Cleric|STRanger is extremely good. Take BCL, Weapon of Astral Flame and Mighty Hew, then forget you're a Cleric forever, at least until Valourous Charge comes up, or you want to take Tactical Warpriest.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:18
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ProfessorCirno posted:Of course, if you really want to be mean, you do that Swordmage|Barbarian I mentioned earlier and multiclass Artificer for - and pretty much only for - their absolutely disgusting triple hitter in Epic. Fits the flavor to boot! Wait, what are you referring to here? I know about swordmage|barbarian hybriding, but what does the artificer part do? Edit: prismatic strike, level 23 artificer encounter power? Also, my main beef with swordmage in general (and this includes swordmage|barbarians) is that they are one of the handful of classes that is encouraged to neglect Will defense, which also means unless you dump your important ability scores you can't buy Superior Will until paragon tier at the very earliest. And Superior Will is practically required, especially for a defender. Admittedly you barely act as a defender as a sw|barb but still. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 17:58
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ProfessorCirno posted:Honestly? Probably belongs on that list, it's so good. Is there errata somewhere that allows people hybriding/MCing cleric to take Battle Cleric's Lore instead of Healer's Lore, or is that something everyone just does?
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Sep 8, 2016 18:35
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