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NeverAfter posted:See, this is the thing that never made sense to me. Every time I go over it my brain just goes Practically nobody actually understands the insanity defense, least of all the writers of this game. You aren't declared "innocent due to insanity," and then you just prance off free as a bird. The court declares you insane, and therefore not capable of being held properly responsible for your actions, and then you basically get shut up in a mental institution until you're deemed sane enough to rejoin society; the last I heard, in the US this averages something like twice as long as the prison sentence would have been. Practically no one in real life uses the insanity defense unless their attorney thinks the alternative is legitimately worse for all involved. Plus, this is Japanifornia, where the only way to actually be declared innocent of a crime is for someone else to be fingered as the perpetrator. So I imagine Yogi's insanity defense was something along the lines of "your honor, my client is literally too crazy to have shot Gregory Edgeworth in the first place, so since it couldn't have been the small child it had to be the elevator goblin that makes the magic room go up and down." Incidentally I think there was also a certain amount of witness suppression and evidence tampering going on, given that in the second game we're told some stuff about Fey family spirit channelling that means it would have been super obvious to anyone actually present at the seance whether or not Misty Fey was faking it.
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Sep 4, 2016 08:51
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Dr. Buttass posted:Plus, this is Japanifornia, where the only way to actually be declared innocent of a crime is for someone else to be fingered as the perpetrator. So I take it Phoenix won't get the defendant cleared due to the prosecution filing the incorrect charges or something. And the words "justifiable homicide" will never pass anyone's lips. I have to wonder if the Prohibition-era bootlegger George Remus inspired the common view of the insanity defense, since he got only eight months for chasing and gunning down his ex-wife in broad daylight. Jury only deliberated for 19 minutes, and said the light verdict was a Christmas present.
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Sep 4, 2016 13:15
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Dr. Buttass posted:The court declares you insane, and therefore not capable of being held properly responsible for your actions, and then you basically get shut up in a mental institution until you're deemed sane enough to rejoin society; the last I heard, in the US this averages something like twice as long as the prison sentence would have been. I want to play devils advocate here. If it's some extreme case in a state with capital punishment. If a guy certifiably killed 40 people to smear their inner ear fluid over his eyeballs for some weird ritual, it might be the better decision. It would certainly take decades, but at least he has a theoretical chance to see the sunlight again. At the very least, it would probably prolong his life a bit.
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Sep 4, 2016 13:54
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I suppose you might? with a whole bunch of fridge logic and secondary evidence, manage to assert that the whole "all trials last three days tops, someone must be found guilty at the end of things" has only recently been codified into Japanifornia law; bonus points if public reaction to DL-6 is actually an impetus for making that happen. You'd run into suspension of disbelief problems that such a major change in governance has become so universally accepted so quickly, but we've clearly got that anyway.
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Sep 4, 2016 13:59
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Bacon In A Wok posted:I suppose you might? with a whole bunch of fridge logic and secondary evidence, manage to assert that the whole "all trials last three days tops, someone must be found guilty at the end of things" has only recently been codified into Japanifornia law We know that's true about the three-day trials at least. Like, for a fact, in this very game they talk about that is a relatively new thing implemented to deal with a huge upturn in criminal behavior. Now, "relatively new" might be stretched to "like twenty-plus years ago, 'new' like 'the modern era' is new", but it certainly isn't the traditional way Japanifornia has always done things. Although it could well be that the trials just took longer to declare the original suspect 100% unavoidably guilty unless a clear-cut alternate murderer was found.
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Sep 4, 2016 14:23
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Jabor posted:Right, but Yanni Yogi still shot the victim, which is exactly what Misty Fey said. "Too crazy to call it murder" doesn't mean that the spirit medium was somehow wrong. When have facts ever stopped someone from being pilloried by the media? It was an embarrassing case with an unsatisfying resolution. Plus, imagine how it must have played out in the news: lawyer shot in a courthouse elevator containing one dude with a gun and his own son and the police have to bring in a psychic? Golly what a hard case to crack, thank goodness Madame Blavatsky was there to finger the right dude with her PHENOMENAL SPIRITUAL POWERS, I am sure she is totally legit now.
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Sep 4, 2016 14:58
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Mors Rattus posted:
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Sep 4, 2016 16:59
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Wonderslug posted:When have facts ever stopped someone from being pilloried by the media? It was an embarrassing case with an unsatisfying resolution. Plus, imagine how it must have played out in the news: lawyer shot in a courthouse elevator containing one dude with a gun and his own son and the police have to bring in a psychic? Golly what a hard case to crack, thank goodness Madame Blavatsky was there to finger the right dude with her PHENOMENAL SPIRITUAL POWERS, I am sure she is totally legit now. Wasn't Misty used by Hammond, aka the Defense Attorney, though? So in trying to use a psychic to clear the guy's name, said (supposed) ghost goes "nah, he did it bro".
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Sep 4, 2016 19:02
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Nevermind. Misread something.
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Sep 4, 2016 19:23
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KataraniSword posted:Wasn't Misty used by Hammond, aka the Defense Attorney, though? No, it's mentioned that the police hired her back in case 2. As for why? They presumably didn't have any airtight proof that Yogi did it. Somehow. Despite him and Miles being the only other two people in the elevator, and they're obviously not going to consider that a little kid killed his own father.
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Sep 4, 2016 19:34
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There's a lot more questionable poo poo about Gregory Pecks murder that the game hasn't brought up yet.
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Sep 4, 2016 21:01
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IAmTheRad posted:You need to take a look back at the second case. You're misremembering Grossberg's initial involvement. After Yogi got declared innocent the police were the first to accuse Misty of fraud (either due to police stupidity or just to save face, we don't get much on this). Misty herself went to Grossberg who successfully defended her legally, but then sold what he learned from her to White. So it's actually worse for her than you thought, but yeah all the information about Misty the public has access to says outright that she's a fraud, even if she was technically right. Dr. Buttass posted:Incidentally I think there was also a certain amount of witness suppression and evidence tampering going on, given that in the second game we're told some stuff about Fey family spirit channelling that means it would have been super obvious to anyone actually present at the seance whether or not Misty Fey was faking it. Uh...are you talking about how Misty would've turned into Gregory Edgeworth? We've seen Maya channel Mia twice in this game; that isn't a spoiler even though you're being hush-hush about it. Only the police were there though, and they decided to keep the whole thing confidential.
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Sep 5, 2016 00:46
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Regalingualius posted:No, it's mentioned that the police hired her back in case 2. Japanifornia police's refusal to consider children or birds murderers is a black mark against them.
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Sep 5, 2016 01:16
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Just for reference, the 3-day trial thing was NOT in effect at that point in time.
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Sep 5, 2016 03:14
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whitehelm posted:Uh...are you talking about how Misty would've turned into Gregory Edgeworth? We've seen Maya channel Mia twice in this game; that isn't a spoiler even though you're being hush-hush about it. Only the police were there though, and they decided to keep the whole thing confidential. The game's been kind of cagey about it. I've only played the second game and even then I thought the "turning into Mia" thing was just a fanciful way of artistically representing the channelling until "no that's literally happening" was a plot point. Rattus did ask us to keep spoilers to a minimum, you know...
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Sep 5, 2016 03:47
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The third case clearly had the kid being like "oh poo poo this girl is hot" with Mia-Maya specifically. It was creepy as gently caress, but it happened, so it's not really a massive spoiler.
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Sep 5, 2016 03:53
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Yeah, Maya is pretty explicitly taking the form of Mia. It's not really a spoiler to say.
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Sep 5, 2016 03:54
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 : Could he be an innocent defendant you got declared guilty or something? : Nice, Wright. But I don't remember that old man. Not at all.God I love how passive-aggressive it is and Edgeworth just has to take it. That face is perfect. Leif. fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 05:37
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You people are overthinking the Misty Fey thing. The police contacted a spirit medium. She gave out an answer. The police pressed charges. The defendant was found innocent. Why doesn't matter--this is Japanafornia. The defendant was found innocent, ergo the prosecution and thus the police whose spirit medium pointed the finger lost. Thus, Misty Fey was seen as a fraud. What's that? The person channeled said the defendant did it and he was found to have done it but not be legally culpable? I'm sorry, I can't hear you over your fraudiness.
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Sep 5, 2016 10:08
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... Is this making a particular point about expert testimony or did someone at the studio have an ex-girlfriend named Misty?
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Sep 5, 2016 10:42
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Guess what day it is today!  
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Sep 5, 2016 17:01
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Happy deathiversery Mia! 
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Sep 5, 2016 17:30
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MegaZeroX posted:Happy deathiversery Mia! Not yet. The game takes place in 2016, so Mia died today.
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Sep 5, 2016 17:35
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Technically she's still alive for another 12ish hours. Mia would be working on Labor Day.
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Sep 5, 2016 17:41
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ProfessorProf posted:Technically she's still alive for another 12ish hours. Technically ~11 hours as of this post. The text box says 8:57 PM and the game takes place in LA.
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Sep 5, 2016 17:59
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ProfessorProf posted:Technically she's still alive for another 12ish hours. Justice never sleeps.
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Sep 5, 2016 18:06
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ProfessorProf posted:Technically she's still alive for another 12ish hours. But Phoenix, being just an assistant, was off, and that is why he wasn't there when Mia was attacked! It makes sense!
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Sep 6, 2016 17:14
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Case 4 - Turnabout Goodbyes Investigation (Day 3) - Part 3  We left off still talking to Grossberg about von Karma.    : He would know that Miles Edgeworth had accidentally killed his own father.: ...! : He'll say as much tomorrow in court, I should think. He'll press the point until the court finds Miles Edgeworth "guilty.": Oh no! : B-but how could von Karma know about Mr. Edgeworth's past like that? Even Mr. Edgeworth thought it was just a nightmare!: Hmm... That, I do not know. Yet I do know that von Karma is both persistent... and a perfectionist.: He may be seeking to satisfy a grudge against Gregory Edgeworth by hurting his son.: What do you mean?: It was fifteen years ago... von Karma met Gregory Edgeworth in court, and von Karma did win... But he didn't make it through the trial unscarred. : What happened in the trial between Edgeworth's dad and von Karma?: von Karma got the "guilty" verdict he wanted. He won the trial. But Gregory Edgeworth accused von Karma of faulty evidence. And though he lost the trial, Mr. Edgeworth's accusation stood. : Faulty evidence? : It was the only penalty von Karma has ever received in his career as a prosecutor. Gregory Edgeworth dealt a blow to his perfect trial record. : Wow.: It must have been quite a shock for von Karma. He took a vacation for several months after that, you see.: A vacation...?: Yes, an unusual event for the man. That was the first, and the last vacation he's taken in his many years of prosecuting.  : Like... go to the sea, or, uh, to the mountains?: Don't tell me he's never been to Europe!?: You have strange ideas about vacations, Maya.: In any case... That was the only time he took a vacation from work. I believe the penalty upset him quite a lot.: (Odd... If he wanted to keep a perfect record so badly... why would he take such a long vacation?): What do we do, Nick? von Karma is going to bring up DL-6, you can bet on it! : What if Mr. Edgeworth pleads guilty to DL-6!?: I won't let him!: Erm, yes, Mr. Wright... I hate to say this... But even accidental murder is murder, you know.: I know that! ... I... I just believe in Edgeworth's innocence! I can't believe he'd kill someone! : B-but, Nick! Mr. Edgeworth admits it himself! His father must have lied to protect him, from beyond the grave...: I don't care! I know he's not guilty!: ... Mr. Wright... If you say so, I suppose I could go check again. The police files might hold something of interest.: Mr. Grossberg... thank you!: I can't promise anything. In fact, I think the chances of finding something are slim.: I understand. (The police materials... hmm.)We should check those out...but let's stop back at home first and regroup.   : Yeah... I know.: Well, no time to waste! Let's get going! : What do you think we should do now, Maya?: You would know best, Nick! : Just do what you do! That should work. : Well? Had any good ideas?: This is all tied to the DL-6 Incident... We'd better find out as much as we can about that murder before tomorrow!: (Something that happened back then has a hold on Edgeworth and it won't let go.)So, to the station!   : There's hardly anyone here...: Everyone must be out looking for the old guy... Yogi.  : I don't think Gumshoe'll be coming back today. He's staying out late looking for someone.: Sounds like Detective Gumshoe is pounding the pavement for real! : Um, we were wondering if we could check out the Records Room again...: Well, now, I can't have just anyone wandering around in there. But... I guess Mr. von Karma is in there now, anyway. You can go in as long as he's there.: von Karma...?: Yes. He just arrived actually. : N-Nick! Let's hurry!  : Dusty as always!: We were only here just yesterday. I'm sure they just haven't had time to clean... ...: What's wrong, Nick?: Nothing. I was just noticing that he isn't here. von Karma...But something has definitely changed...  : Huh? One of the drawers here is open.: Someone must have been looking in it recently.: The label says, "Unsolved Cases: Evidence"Yeah, they forgot a period. : Hmm... "Unsolved cases"?: Nick! The file for DL-6... it's completely empty!: Wh-what!?  : v-v-von Karma! : You...! ... How do you know my name?: Huh?: Have we met?  : We see each other every day, don't we?: We're Miles Edgeworth's defense team!: Defense team...?  : They are like bugs to me. Needless things, to be crushed.: (I can see how this guy was Edgeworth's mentor.)Hey, he seems friendly enough! Let's chat.  : Uh, umm... Mr. Edgeworth was your student, right?: ... A romanticist who could never shed that veneer of amateurism. Just like his father. Always second rate.: Mr. von Karma... You had an axe to grind with Mr. Gregory Edgeworth, didn't you?: Me? A grudge against a mere defense attorney? Why?: Because he dealt a blow to your otherwise perfect trial record?: Hmph.: So you did... but what I don't get is... Why did you take his son under your wing afterwards? The son of your most bitter rival?: ... That, my dear attorney, is none of your business. : Tomorrow will be the last day of this trial. It's been a while since I've had a defense attorney last this long. Still, you will lose in the end. Miles Edgeworth will admit his own guilt.: His guilt of 15 years ago, you mean?: ... You're quite the researcher. If you've done your homework so well, then certainly, you must understand. You know what Miles Edgeworth will tell the court tomorrow.: (We were right... So von Karma is going to bring up DL-6 in court tomorrow.)We can show him things, but with one exception, they don't do anything helpful. : You think I, a prosecutor, would give you, a defense attorney, information? Bah!: (Creep!)But hey, maybe we should confront him with that letter he wrote...  : ...: This was you, wasn't it? You instructed Yanni Yogi to commit murder.: ... Yanni Yogi... How many years has it been since I've heard him called by that name.: He's a fool. I told him to burn it after he read it.: ...!: S-so you admit it! You... you wrote Mr. Yogi this letter!: Yes, my dear defense attorney. Thank you for taking the trouble to bring it to me. You've saved me from a lot of needless hassle.: Wh-what!?: N-Nick! What is that thing!? : A stun gun. For self defense... usually. : Indeed. 600,000 volts will course through your body like a dog touching an electric fence.: Six hundred thous...!?: Oh, don't worry. People don't die from it, usually. Now, give me the letter.: (No!!!): Nooooooooooo!  : M-Maya!: Out of my way!  : (Ugh... He got us. The letter's... gone, of course. And he took the DL-6 evidence... all of it. Back to having no clues. Wait... Maya jumped first. Maya...! Is she okay? ...)The letter is gone from the Court Record, though at least the DL-6 files we got yesterday are not.   : Maya! Open your eyes! : Maya! : ... The letter! Did he take it?: Huh!? Oh... yeah. A-are you okay!?: ... : I... I couldn't stop him. I jumped as fast as I could, but one shot from that thing knocked me out cold. I'm useless. I'm no good as a lawyer, or a medium! I can't even call my sister. Not even now, when we need her the most. I wish I hadn't woken up at all.She fades back into unconsciousness.  : (Grr! There has to be some way I can help her! I'd better do something about her self-confidence, first.) ...? (Maya... she's holding something!) : "DL-6 Incident, Evidence No. 7 Taken from the heart of Gregory Edgeworth." I remember... von Karma was holding this when Maya jumped him. : (I'll prove it to you, Maya. You're most definitely not useless! I'll prove it to you in court tomorrow!) Next time: Well, poo poo. Pactus Legis Salicae XX (ca. 500) (translated) posted:1. The freeman who touches the hand or arm or finger of a free woman or of any other woman, and it is proved against him, shall be liable to pay six hundred denarii.
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Sep 7, 2016 14:18
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I sure hope they made a copy of that letter.
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Sep 7, 2016 14:33
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Mraagvpeine posted:I sure hope they made a copy of that letter. Of course they didn't! That would be tampering with evidence!
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Sep 7, 2016 14:49
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I'd argue that this here scene stands out as one of the rare cases of extremely sloppy writing in the series. Of the many bad decisions you could make in this situation the one you have to do to progress really stands out as the stupidest one humanly possible, and the game forcing you into it to move the plot forward is just bad and dumb.
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Sep 7, 2016 14:57
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Sharing our suspicions with Redd White and Dee Vasquez worked out so well the last two times. Why not do the the same with Von Karma? 
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Sep 7, 2016 15:14
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Hell, at least during the last few times all Phoenix had was suspicions that Redd White or Dee Vasques were involved in the case somehow. This one takes the cake due to literally having decisive evidence in his pocket that the person he's confroting had instigated murder.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:34
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So Von Karma led Edgeworth down the path of dark prosecution and cravats and is now going to have him executed for murder entirely to spite a guy who is already dead in order to avenge loving up his time-table a little. Dude is a pathetic, petty piece of poo poo.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:36
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I like the part where there's screaming and a ruckus going on in the police department's records room, and nobody comes in to see what's happened. Then again, knowing Japanifornia Police, they probably would have seen Phoenix and Maya at the scene and arrested them immediately as the assailants.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:38
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Cerebral Bore posted:Hell, at least during the last few times all Phoenix had was suspicions that Redd White or Dee Vasques were involved in the case somehow. This one takes the cake due to literally having decisive evidence in his pocket that the person he's confroting had instigated murder. Not to mention that this guy is the prosecution he's going up against in court tomorrow. Night10194 posted:So Von Karma led Edgeworth down the path of dark prosecution and cravats and is now going to have him executed for murder entirely to spite a guy who is already dead in order to avenge loving up his time-table a little. Von Karma is a little sensitive about his perfect record. Just a little.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:40
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What was phoenix really hoping to do there? Wave the murdernote in Von Karma's face and go 'neener neener neeeeener'?
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Sep 7, 2016 15:42
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Ya, giving this law system showing that note in court might have been enough to convict Yanni Yogi and Von Karma of the murder...
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Sep 7, 2016 15:45
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I nearly threw the DS at the wall the first time I played this, leaving the conversation and wandering around to see if there was another trigger I was missing because this was idiotic in so many ways.
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Sep 7, 2016 15:57
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The game really drops the ball here. Not only is it idiotic from a writing standpoint, from a gameplay standpoint, it punishes players for having common sense and not showing off their trump card in front of von Karma.
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Sep 7, 2016 16:12
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