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Serf posted:Having cool stuff is not the same as having to explicitly spell out all the ways in which your stuff is cool. No, but someone explaining at length why his cool item is cool whilst clearly getting off on it and setting up for the item's later role in the plot IS a very effective way of advancing a story and establishing a character.
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Sep 7, 2016 21:58
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Loxbourne posted:No, but someone explaining at length why his cool item is cool whilst clearly getting off on it and setting up for the item's later role in the plot IS a very effective way of advancing a story and establishing a character. I especially like the way that the knowledge of the Falcon's speed in parsecs deepened our understanding of many aspects of its role later in the films.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:09
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Valatar posted:Interesting people have interesting stuff. Would Han have been an amazing iconic smuggler using some generic Wal-Mart YT-1300 right off the shelf? A "generic Wal-Mart YT-1300" doesn't exist though. Nothing does, until you state it does, because Star Wars isn't real, and the rules of the setting are what you say they are, and what exists in the setting is only what you say exists. We know the Millenium Falcon is crazy and set up all weird and customized because we are told this. Not because there was a giant list of ships, and you saw Han Solo pick the one he wanted and then go over a list of potential modifications. The actual answer is that RPG fans (and creators) are loving crazy over giant pointless gear lists, and they make real good filler. It adds an actually non-existing "depth" to the game where you have to choose a specific weapon, so hey, look at this list and choose the coolest, except it is non-existing because there are almost always guaranteed right and wrong choices mechanically speaking.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:19
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I still subscribe to the belief that Han is just throwing bullshit at Luke as evidenced by Ben's hefty eye-roll after the parsec boast. Also crunchy gear lists are a time-honored tradition of Star Wars RPGs.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:26
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The Falcon is a lovely looking freighter that's unbelievably fast. Seeing it start to haul rear end is like coming up behind a rusty mover's van doing 60 on the highway and as you pull out to overtake the guy floors it and just effortlessly disappears into the distance at 400mph. It could be caught, I guess, but not right now and certainly not by you. You'd probably be better off putting a tracking device on it if you find it stopped somewhere. The only stat it needs is fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:28
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Zurui posted:I still subscribe to the belief that Han is just throwing bullshit at Luke as evidenced by Ben's hefty eye-roll after the parsec boast. Except they double down on this poo poo in TFA. Specifically to troll people who care I think. AlphaDog posted:The only stat it needs is fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy. This is correct.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:34
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Really Star Wars basically demands a highly narrative/cinematic sort of system, since it doesn't matters less that you have a blaster or a lightsaber or whatever and more what adventurous things you do with them. The problem is nerds obsess over stats and details, and that's true of both tabletop RPG fandoms and the Star Wars fandoms.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:35
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Zurui posted:Also crunchy gear lists are a time-honored tradition of Star Wars RPGs. I'd definitely be more bothered by the extensive gear lists had it was the only one in the Star Wars RPG history to do it. But if you don't include all the stuff from the dozens of extra books, I think it has the smallest "core" gear list. Which I don't think is a compliment, really, just that it's the least worst.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:38
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Loxbourne posted:No, but someone explaining at length why his cool item is cool whilst clearly getting off on it and setting up for the item's later role in the plot IS a very effective way of advancing a story and establishing a character. I'm glad we agree. ProfessorCirno posted:A "generic Wal-Mart YT-1300" doesn't exist though. Nothing does, until you state it does, because Star Wars isn't real, and the rules of the setting are what you say they are, and what exists in the setting is only what you say exists. We know the Millenium Falcon is crazy and set up all weird and customized because we are told this. Not because there was a giant list of ships, and you saw Han Solo pick the one he wanted and then go over a list of potential modifications. AlphaDog posted:The Falcon is a lovely looking freighter that's unbelievably fast. Seeing it start to haul rear end is like coming up behind a rusty mover's van doing 60 on the highway and as you pull out to overtake the guy floors it and just effortlessly disappears into the distance at 400mph. It could be caught, I guess, but not right now and certainly not by you. You'd probably be better off putting a tracking device on it if you find it stopped somewhere. These are both correct.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:45
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Hell, it's true. In Star Wars, it DOESN'T matter whether you have a lightsaber.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:48
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Asimo posted:Really Star Wars basically demands a highly narrative/cinematic sort of system, since it doesn't matters less that you have a blaster or a lightsaber or whatever and more what adventurous things you do with them. The problem is nerds obsess over stats and details, and that's true of both tabletop RPG fandoms and the Star Wars fandoms. The FFG system is fairly narrative and cinematic. The problem is when you're putting more and more chapters of gear and fiddly bits into your books, and there's only a handful of ways to actually affect the system (the equivalent of +1 / -1 basically), you immediately start detracting from the cinematic nature of your own system. Run EotE and don't sweat the other stuff. Have fun. Play Star Wars.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:49
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While the movies don't care, there's a certain level of gear/ship porn that's become a big part of Star Wars fandom, driven by decades of other games, novels, etc. So yeah, a lot of folks playing these games might specifically want a certain make/model of ship that they saw in some "technical manual" somewhere. I can hardly fault a game for trying to appease these folks at least a little. I couldn't give a poo poo, but I know some folks who care. While we can sit back and laugh at Wookieepedia for missing the point, that's what a lot of the target audience for this kind of game expects.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:01
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Peas and Rice posted:The FFG system is fairly narrative and cinematic. The problem is when you're putting more and more chapters of gear and fiddly bits into your books, and there's only a handful of ways to actually affect the system (the equivalent of +1 / -1 basically), you immediately start detracting from the cinematic nature of your own system. There's probably a really good 48-page narrativist Star Wars RPG buried inside those giant thick $60 core books.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:06
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Valatar posted:What are you hoping for instead? Star Wars is essentially a modern setting in that most disputes are settled through firearms, so "I shoot that guy in the face" is going to sum up most people's actions in combat. There've been some combats where my techie character's been doing techie stuff while the party covers him, for example, but if he wanted somebody dead in short order, he has a blaster rifle modded into a blaster shotgun and would probably opt to use that. The new XCom games are 90% "I shoot that guy in the face/ I throw a grenade", but they still have a bunch of activated abilities and combos.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:08
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FFG makes beautiful products that really do the Star Wars brand name justice while simultaneously being real Star Wars games.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:14
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As a kid, I LOVED the Cyberpunk Chromebooks. Never mind that they were just big lists of gear and mods and items, there was something really cool about them, or at least there was in the far past of the 90s. I feel like cyberpunk, as a genre, lends itself to that kind of equipment fetishisation (sometimes literally) in a way that pulp adventure like Star Wars doesn't.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:17
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Asimo posted:The problem is nerds obsess over stats and details, and that's true of both tabletop RPG fandoms and the Star Wars fandoms. That they both cropped up within a couple years of each other is telling.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:38
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:As a kid, I LOVED the Cyberpunk Chromebooks. Never mind that they were just big lists of gear and mods and items, there was something really cool about them, or at least there was in the far past of the 90s. I feel like cyberpunk, as a genre, lends itself to that kind of equipment fetishisation (sometimes literally) in a way that pulp adventure like Star Wars doesn't. It feels that way sometimes, but just looking at the original movies, there is more than enough there to support playing a cyberpunk style adventure in Star Wars. You have ubiquitous cyber-tech, like Luke's hand and Lando's assistant Lo-bot. Vader is basically a cyborg, and though it isn't important to the story, the characters all have their own specific unique looking gear. Also, at least half of the main heroes are the kinds of criminals you expect to play in such a game. Yes you can play it narratively, and it would certainly be a better choice if narrative gaming is your drug of choice. You can also play Blade Runner narratively, as there is nothing in that movie that requires any of the tech to be gone into in an in depth manner. Some people just prefer heavier games, though it is unfortunate that some games do not get lighter alternatives for those who don't. Star Wars and Star Trek could use a licensed narrative game, considering how many attempts have been made on the two of them in a heavier fashion.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:43
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The core dice resolution mechanic of Fantasy Flight's Star Wars system is incredibly narrative, and the gear-lists can more or less be ignored if that's not your group's thing.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:46
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Gear lists are badass.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:48
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Slimnoid posted:That they both cropped up within a couple years of each other is telling.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:48
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Truthfully If you prefer narrative gaming over high crunch gaming, there is no genre where you couldn't come up with a good justification for doing it that way. Even the most oppressive, people with guns dying in the dirt kind of property is emulated better by rules that pay attention to the themes rather than rules that attempt to simulate reality. Reality simulation is almost never the best choice for any sort of storytelling except for the accidental sort, but a lot of people like that sort of accidental storytelling, perhaps a majority of RPG gamers do, and so aside from recent trends, that is what we have been getting.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:53
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jivjov posted:The core dice resolution mechanic of Fantasy Flight's Star Wars system is incredibly narrative, and the gear-lists can more or less be ignored if that's not your group's thing. This is the point I think gets lost a lot when talking about the FFG SW games. Yeah, there's a lot of gear to be had if you go diving through splat books, but it's also very easy to ignore if you just want to use the dice system. In the games I've run, there haven't been any major issues with some players embracing the crunch and some ignoring it.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:56
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It has mostly to do with the fact that RPGs evolved out of wargames and boardgames.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:56
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My ideal star wars rpg is a 300 page book. The first page is lasers and feelings, the other 299 pages are thoroughly indexed gear lists.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:59
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If you want to see something truly sad, flip to the Starships section of the EotE book and look and all those inane statblocks right outta some D&D garbage. But it's cool you see because you can ignore them totally. Great game design.
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Sep 7, 2016 23:59
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Serf posted:If you want to see something truly sad, flip to the Starships section of the EotE book and look and all those inane statblocks right outta some D&D garbage. I don't mind breaking out the minis for an important combat, but I also don't mind handling things narratively. I guess I'm weird?
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Sep 8, 2016 00:02
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FMguru posted:There's probably a really good 48-page narrativist Star Wars RPG buried inside those giant thick $60 core books. There really isn't, sadly. If you want a decent Star Wars RPG, use Fate, it's explicitly designed for that kind of pulpy action and isn't bogged down by bad custom dice and 300 pages of absurd nickel-and-dime feats and pointless great lists.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:03
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CaptCommy posted:This is the point I think gets lost a lot when talking about the FFG SW games. Yeah, there's a lot of gear to be had if you go diving through splat books, but it's also very easy to ignore if you just want to use the dice system. In the games I've run, there haven't been any major issues with some players embracing the crunch and some ignoring it. Yeah, I've got one player in my frequent group that will go through every new gear list looking for new and cool stuff he can carry around with him. The rest of my group hasn't made any significant gear alterations since char-gen.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:03
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Kwyndig posted:I don't mind breaking out the minis for an important combat, but I also don't mind handling things narratively. I guess I'm weird? Nah I'm right there with you. Tactical combat is my poo poo. I started out with 4E, which I loved but left me with a severe dislike for bloated lists of gear, feats and other fiddly poo poo.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:05
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Lemon-Lime posted:There really isn't, sadly. I'm not that familiar with FFG's SW but I love me some Fate, and yeah it's pretty much perfect for doing Star Wars.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:11
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remusclaw posted:It feels that way sometimes, but just looking at the original movies, there is more than enough there to support playing a cyberpunk style adventure in Star Wars. You have ubiquitous cyber-tech, like Luke's hand and Lando's assistant Lo-bot. Vader is basically a cyborg, and though it isn't important to the story, the characters all have their own specific unique looking gear. Also, at least half of the main heroes are the kinds of criminals you expect to play in such a game. Yes you can play it narratively, and it would certainly be a better choice if narrative gaming is your drug of choice. You can also play Blade Runner narratively, as there is nothing in that movie that requires any of the tech to be gone into in an in depth manner. Some people just prefer heavier games, though it is unfortunate that some games do not get lighter alternatives for those who don't. Star Wars and Star Trek could use a licensed narrative game, considering how many attempts have been made on the two of them in a heavier fashion. From experience, you aren't wrong. remusclaw posted:Truthfully If you prefer narrative gaming over high crunch gaming, there is no genre where you couldn't come up with a good justification for doing it that way. Even the most oppressive, people with guns dying in the dirt kind of property is emulated better by rules that pay attention to the themes rather than rules that attempt to simulate reality. Reality simulation is almost never the best choice for any sort of storytelling except for the accidental sort, but a lot of people like that sort of accidental storytelling, perhaps a majority of RPG gamers do, and so aside from recent trends, that is what we have been getting. I feel it's more one of those cases where "if you like X thing, it's easy to justify it over Y thing you don't like." Like, if you like narrative gaming over high crunch gaming, it's easy to justify it as better since you see its benefits and high crunches detriment easily and vice versa.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:12
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remusclaw posted:It feels that way sometimes, but just looking at the original movies, there is more than enough there to support playing a cyberpunk style adventure in Star Wars. You have ubiquitous cyber-tech, like Luke's hand and Lando's assistant Lo-bot. Vader is basically a cyborg, and though it isn't important to the story, the characters all have their own specific unique looking gear. Also, at least half of the main heroes are the kinds of criminals you expect to play in such a game. Yes you can play it narratively, and it would certainly be a better choice if narrative gaming is your drug of choice. You can also play Blade Runner narratively, as there is nothing in that movie that requires any of the tech to be gone into in an in depth manner. Some people just prefer heavier games, though it is unfortunate that some games do not get lighter alternatives for those who don't. Star Wars and Star Trek could use a licensed narrative game, considering how many attempts have been made on the two of them in a heavier fashion. Yeah, personally hate crunchy systems, it was just the idea and concept of these things, just books of cool ideas and tech that you could use. I'm not sure how you'd reconsile that with any kind of narrative system, since it'd just be pure fluff.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:16
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Yeah, personally hate crunchy systems, it was just the idea and concept of these things, just books of cool ideas and tech that you could use. I'm not sure how you'd reconsile that with any kind of narrative system, since it'd just be pure fluff. The cyberpunk gaming dilemma. Shopping is like at least half of the appeal of Cyberpunk, I love those books full of cool poo poo to put on my character. I like my shopping choices to have mechanical weight, I want my cyber eyes and my M33 Superlazer to mean something beyond eyes +1 and heavy laser gun. Coincidentally, this results in every cyberpunk RPG being a bloated mess of rules and stat-blocks that I can almost never actually get my mind around. Every thing I want in those games is in opposition to the way I like my games to play.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:22
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Yeah, personally hate crunchy systems, it was just the idea and concept of these things, just books of cool ideas and tech that you could use. I'm not sure how you'd reconsile that with any kind of narrative system, since it'd just be pure fluff. It's actually pretty easy if you use gear as permissions.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:23
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Evil Mastermind posted:That came up before, but I still love how nobody in the comments is buying it. And GMS's passive-aggressive "I don't wanna deal with critics" post. I don't like critics either. And I deal with it exactly the same way GMS does, by never releasing any products.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:27
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DalaranJ posted:I don't like critics either. And I deal with it exactly the same way GMS does, by never releasing any products.  But seriously, you want to see a cyberpunky sort of thing done in a narrative system, check out Transhumanity's Fate.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:37
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Gear complexity in a Star Wars RPG is irrelevant. All of them are failures to the brand for failing to statistically represent Bigger Luke.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:40
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Kwyndig posted:But seriously, you want to see a cyberpunky sort of thing done in a narrative system, check out Transhumanity's Fate. My copy came two days ago and it's the first book I've read that's made me want to play Fate. But I love Eclipse Phase.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:42
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Kwyndig posted:
Or the Fate version of Interface Zero 2.0.
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Sep 8, 2016 00:55
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